"in teh zone" Luke and Anakin vs DE Sidious, RoT Bane and Exar Kun

Started by Letum Lettow6 pages
Letum Lettow Senior Member

Originally posted by Galan007
It was stated that Palpatine's Force Storms were "a chaos that he could not control." However, it seemed like Palps demonstrated a very impressive degree of control over said Storm when he used one to teleport Luke from the surface of a planet, across space, and onto his ship. /shrug
I don't think he controlled them so much as restrained/semi-guided them to a general direction.

It's like a Pit/Great Dane Hybrid, it does what it wants, you can only somewhat guide it along.

ares834 Senior Member

Team 2 wins. However, saying Anakin is a non-factor is laughable. He could likely take on either Exar Kun or Bane, or at the very least keep them busy for a long time. However, the leaves Luke with Sidious and another Sith. He would have his hands full with SIdious throw on another SIth lord and Luke goes down... Hard. Anakin is then ****ed.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic
He could likely take on [...]bane

😐
He could likely take on [...] Exar Kun

😬

um...

no?

ares834 Senior Member

Take on does not neccesarily mean beat. Although I belive in "teh z0ne" Anakin would be more than a match for Exar Kun.

Hewhoknowsall Restricted

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
😐

😬

um...

no?

Remember that this in "in teh zone" Anakin.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic
Originally posted by ares834
Take on does not neccesarily mean beat. Although I belive in "teh z0ne" Anakin would be more than a match for Exar Kun.

I don't think there would be any "taking on" occurring, let alone "beating." There will be no beating going on.

Exar Kun whips him like a red-headed stepchild.

He is more adept with a blade. (Kun invented his own style and weapon.)
He is more knowledgeable with the Force. (Kun had more combat-applicable knowledge than Skywalker ever dreamed of.)
He is more adept with the Force. (Spamming amulet blasts will quickly overwhelm the boy wonder.)

Everything that Anakin could do, Kun could do better.

KuRuPT Thanosi Senior Member

You would admit that Yoda could take on Kun right Nemesis? Yet yoda couldn't put down Dooku in a much longer time then it took Zone Anakin to pwn Dooku. Can you explain how you can dismiss this fact?

Lord Lucien Lets all love Lain

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You would admit that Yoda could take on Kun right Nemesis? Yet yoda couldn't put down Dooku in a much longer time then it took Zone Anakin to pwn Dooku. Can you explain how you can dismiss this fact?
Just because Yoda hadn't killed Dooku yet, doesn't mean he was going to lose. You wouldn't distract your opponent and flee if you were going to win.

KuRuPT Thanosi Senior Member
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Just because Yoda hadn't killed Dooku yet, doesn't mean he was going to lose. You wouldn't distract your opponent and flee if you were going to win.

Agreed and never said Yoda was going to lose. I think it was clear tht Dooku knew he had to run.. just like Sid knew he had to run from Yoda. You still never addressed my point though and how this fact can be dismissed..... Yoda couldn't kill Dooku as quick at Zone Anakin did... yet he's a none factor against Kun or Bane when clearly Yoda would be? Again I'm not saying Anakin equals Yoda... what I am saying is zone anakin has done better against a common foe than Yoda and would be a factor if it went to sabers.

ares834 Senior Member

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

He is more adept with a blade. (Kun invented his own style and weapon.)

Inventing you own style does not make one unbeatable. And The Essential Guide to the Force states that the Jedi Exiles created the dual bladed lightsaber. Regardless, Anakin's effortless defeat of Dooku is far more impressive than anything Exar Kun has ever done with his lightsaber skills.
He is more knowledgeable with the Force. (Kun had more combat-applicable knowledge than Skywalker ever dreamed of.)

True. But it didn't help Dooku.
He is more adept with the Force. (Spamming amulet blasts will quickly overwhelm the boy wonder.)

This is very possible.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You would admit that Yoda could take on Kun right Nemesis? Yet yoda couldn't put down Dooku in a much longer time then it took Zone Anakin to pwn Dooku. Can you explain how you can dismiss this fact?

Kun < Yoda
(Yoda - Dooku) < (Anakin - Dooku)
Anakin ? Kun

I'm pretty sure that your post isn't much more than a non sequitur. And if you'd like to assert that it isn't (by upholding the concept of ABC in the truest sense of the word) then you just made a mediocre transitive fallacy. Feel free to develop an argument whenever is convenient for you.

KuRuPT Thanosi Senior Member

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Kun < Yoda
(Yoda - Dooku) < (Anakin - Dooku)
Anakin ? Kun

I'm pretty sure that your post isn't much more than a non sequitur. And if you'd like to assert that it isn't (by upholding the concept of ABC in the truest sense of the word) then you just made a mediocre transitive fallacy. Feel free to develop an argument whenever is convenient for you.

I see, so instead of addressing the point that was made.. you scream fallacy.... ABC... fallacy.. ABC. You do realize there is nothing wrong with using ABC logic to come to a reasonably sound conclusion, so long as you realize its inherent short comings as well? Which is why your counter argument failed miserably in discerning this fact. I never used those fights as proof that Anakin would beat Kun or Bane. If I did so, you would have a point in pulling out the ABC card. What I did do with it, was pose a reasonable question about why these canon fights are easily dismissed by you. I went a step further and made it clear I wasn’t saying Anakin was superior to Kun, Bane or Yoda, but if it came to pure sabers.. Anakin would be a factor. Again a factor, not a victor. So what is unsound or invalid about such a premise and conclusion that he would be a factor? How about next time you actually read what is said and answer the question, before dismissing it as typical abc logic or some other fallacy.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic

Against my better judgment, you will be given a chance. I suppose everybody deserves one. Thus:

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I see, so instead of addressing the point that was made.. you scream fallacy.... ABC... fallacy.. ABC.

There is no need to "address the point" if the point is fallacious. By pointing out where your argument becomes specious, it is possible (if only just) that you might be better able to construct a position in the future. I'm helping.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You do realize there is nothing wrong with using ABC logic to come to a reasonably sound conclusion,

The phrase "reasonably sound conclusion" here is telling. The only standard of "reasonably sound" that we can possibly share is, well, reason. That is to say, logical thought is the only form of thought that has even a chance of approaching objectivity. Abandoning logical thought in favor of what is "reasonably sound" makes constructive discourse impossible. If pointing out that your reasoning is unsound ("illogical"😉 does not also convince you that your position is unsound ("illogical"😉 then why are you bothering to put together an argument? You may as well just say what you think without bothering to explain why; there is no point in explaining your reasoning if you can't bear to see its flaws.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
so long as you realize its inherent short comings as well?

"Inherent short comings"? It takes balls to say that your mode of argument is inherently flawed and then go on to use it anyway. (I guess it could just be ignorance, but saying that to someone's face would be rude.) Admitting that your argument is flawed while insisting that your conclusion is valid simply moots our presence here. Why are you posting if not to seek truth? (Aristotle said that argument's first purpose is to seek truth.) Clinging to dubious claims only retards that process.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Which is why your counter argument failed miserably in discerning this fact.

Which fact, exactly? The one that you've just used as a piece of evidence for itself?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I never used those fights as proof that Anakin would beat Kun or Bane. If I did so, you would have a point in pulling out the ABC card.

So if you had used this argument as evidence for your conclusion it would be invalid. Got it.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What I did do with it, was pose a reasonable question about why these canon fights are easily dismissed by you.

By me? I'm Red Nemesis. I am not Lord Lucien. We are separate entities. My posts and positions are different from his. To my knowledge, I have not "dismissed" any canon fights at all.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I went a step further and made it clear I wasn’t saying Anakin was superior to Kun, Bane or Yoda, but if it came to pure sabers.. Anakin would be a factor.

I'm surprised that you felt the need to support the assertion that "Anakin would be a factor." I suppose it is admirable to substantiate your axioms, but you are aware that he is part of the battle, right? In that sense he is already a factor, just as the air the combatants breathe, the ground that they stand on, and the cosmological constant of the universe in which they fight are all factors of the fight. Saying that Anakin "is a factor' is to say nothing at all.

I could believe that you were taking pains to say nothing. DT and HWKN both do that a lot. I didn't take you as inept. Based on your posting thus far you are at least capable of forming a thesis, if not supporting it. Don't tell me my impression was wrong. I really hate being wrong.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Again a factor, not a victor. So what is unsound or invalid about such a premise and conclusion that he would be a factor?

Well, since I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and haven't classified you as inept yet, let's examine our options, shall we? You can be:
[list=A]
[*]Working very hard to say nothing
-or-
[*]Working very hard to say something about Anakin without actually taking up the burden of proof that goes along with it
[/list]
I opted for option 'B.' I don't (yet) believe that you are an idiot so I can only conclude that you were attempting to augment Anakin's standing in order to further your own position. It is an excellent skill to have, but when you get called on it (as you as has happened now) the thing to do is to accept the implications that you've made and run with your insinuations. That is to say, MAN UP. If you think that Anakin can do this then go ahead and say it. If you think that he can't then say that. As it is you've only convinced us that you are bad at stuff in general or are bad at trying to be clever. Take your pick.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
How about next time you actually read what is said and answer the question, before dismissing it as typical abc logic or some other fallacy.

Nemesis acted arrogantly so he is wrong.

Get better at life then try again. I hear that each pigspider gives you five XP, so if you kill 27,568,922 then you can be at a high enough level to win!

DrunknClockwork Member

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Just because Yoda hadn't killed Dooku yet, doesn't mean he was going to lose.

And it also doesn't mean that Dooku was going to lose.

You wouldn't distract your opponent and flee if you were going to win.

Dark Rendezvous
The red light blinked. There was another explosion from downstairs. A siren went off, and several of the holomonitors began to flash.

"Come," Yoda said urgently. He put his hand once more on Dooku's arm. "Catch you, I said I would. Believe you must: more forgiveness will you find from your old Master than from the new one."

A rush of panicked footsteps, and the housekeeper burst into the room.

"Master, which there are Jedi in the ballroom. They're coming to take my Baby!" she shrieked.

Dooku flicked through the security monitors until he found the ballroom.

"Ah," he said. Something in his face seemed to freeze, and die. "I see you brought your protege."

"Understand you, I do not," Yoda said.

"You didn't mention bringing young Skywalker," Dooku said, pointing to the holomonitor. "And Obi-Wan, too. That changes the odds considerably. There's your Wonder Boy now, fighting the assassin droids I have standing sentry duty at the front door." His hand was wonderfully steady now. "Your new favorite son."

"Bring him, I did not!"

"And yet, there he stands, with Obi-Wan. A miracle and a prodigy to be sure. I suppose you left him under cover. Perhaps you missed a rendezvous. So easy to lose track of time, chatting with old friends," the Count said.


You see, Dooku wanted to fight Yoda 1 on 1 with nobody interrupting. Same goes for Yoda since he himself was as surprised as Dooku about the nearing arrival of Anakin and Obiwan.
Of course Dooku was going to flee because he's not an idiot and from the duel it was obvious that there wouldn't be a victor anytime soon. However, if they had kept on dueling and Anakin and Obiwan arrived, Dooku's chance's of fleeing would've dropped to 0%.

EDIT:
@topic: Team 2.

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic

You see, Dooku wanted to fight Yoda 1 on 1 with nobody interrupting.

You didn't quote the entire fight.

"There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course."

Yoda attacked: Dooku parried.

"So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed."

Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement.

"Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath. "Obi-Wan and your precious Skywalker and your little Padawans will be wiped out when the missile hits. So what you need to decide is, what means more to you, Master Yoda? Saving their lives-or taking mine?"


Dooku had an escape clause; he lost, and so he ran.

Gideon Restricted
LL
You wouldn't distract your opponent and flee if you were going to win.

It depends on the circumstances and what was at stake. A much more accurate statement would be, "You wouldn't distract your opponent and flee if losing wasn't an option."

RN
You didn't quote the entire fight.

Did you throw it in his/her/their face[s] about Dooku being empowered by Vjun's powerful dark side presence?

Red Nemesis The Blind Critic

Did you throw it in his/her/their face[s] about Dooku being empowered by Vjun's powerful dark side presence?

That would be mean.

And, more importantly, doing so would make it look like I'm actually trying, rather than mockinghelping.

Hewhoknowsall Restricted

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I don't think there would be any "taking on" occurring, let alone "beating." There will be no beating going on.

Exar Kun whips him like a red-headed stepchild.

He is more adept with a blade. (Kun invented his own style and weapon.)
He is more knowledgeable with the Force. (Kun had more combat-applicable knowledge than Skywalker ever dreamed of.)
He is more adept with the Force. (Spamming amulet blasts will quickly overwhelm the boy wonder.)

Everything that Anakin could do, Kun could do better.

How does inventing your own style equate to being better with a blade?
Mace Windu invented his own style and, although pretty skilled with a blade, others that haven't invented their own complete style have surpassed him.
Exar Kun knew a bunch of sith magic. I don't see much other than the amulets that would help him significantly.
How long will it take for him to hit Anakin, and could Anakin get close to Exar? Because "in teh zone" Luke would pwn DE Sidious pretty quickly.

KuRuPT Thanosi Senior Member

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I don't think there would be any "taking on" occurring, let alone "beating." There will be no beating going on.

Exar Kun whips him like a red-headed stepchild.

He is more adept with a blade. (Kun invented his own style and weapon.)
He is more knowledgeable with the Force. (Kun had more combat-applicable knowledge than Skywalker ever dreamed of.)
He is more adept with the Force. (Spamming amulet blasts will quickly overwhelm the boy wonder.)

Everything that Anakin could do, Kun could do better.


This along with previous post from other people saying Anakin wasn't a factor was my reasoning for bringing up said fights in question (Yoda vs Dooku, Anakin vs. Dooku) Look at the previous page and how many times Anakin was said to be a non-factor. You say Kun would pwn Anakin in saber combat which is the very point I was addressing, all the while asking you how this can be. Your only point for Kun pwning Anakin is he invented his own lightsaber and style… even though there is even conflicting evidence against that? You can make light of "a factor" all you want, however this wasn't the words I used to first describe Anakin's role. People, including you, said he would be a non factor. To which I agreed to an extent, but didn't agree with, in the context of a saber fight. Hence the factor I was referring to. You decide to pull a Red Herring, and act as if factor I was referring to equated to the air we breathe lol. That was the best you could come up with? Another fallacy to deflect from the point I was making lol.

Then you got into my line of "reasonably sound conclusion" and tried another fallacy when discussing that. I choose that line because ABC logic can never dictate a sound valid conclusion. However, it can help in giving you some evidence in which to come to a logical conclusion. Unless of course your saying fights don't matter and we can't draw any conclusions from them? Is that what you're saying? If not, then what is wrong with me naming those two fights, and then concluding Anakin could be a factor in saber combat?

Further… you ask why I don't take a definite position on supporting Anakin winning or not… Interesting because haven't you done the same thing in your posts on here? Reason being, nobody knows for sure the outcome as this is all fantasy, and we have various factors in play that convolute an absolute factual conclusion. True or not? Or are you claiming you always take a definite position. If so I can certainly quote posts in which you haven't…. To make matters worse… I was very clear on the position that I was taking… which was that Anakin would be a factor in respect to sabers only. I then referenced his pwning of Dooku and how quickly he did so… While Yoda.. couldn't do so in a longer period of time (force and sabers). Thus is asked why this wasn't being taken into account in respect to saber combat only. Certainly a reasonable question isn't it? Unless of course you're claiming Yoda also wouldn't be a factor next to Kun or Bane (which I doubt you're saying). So while you tried to find fault in my post.. all you did was use two fallacies and accused me of doing something you've also done. Kudos buddy

DrunknClockwork Member

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Dooku had an escape clause; he lost, and so he ran.

Yeah, he had a plan B IF he saw he was no match for his old master.

And Dooku being empowered by Vjun could've been the deciding factor in the duel because if Yoda (who was constantly invigorating himself via the force in addition to using the arguably physically most demanding lightsaber form with all it's flips and spins) couldn't finish off Dooku (with his boosted force reserves) fast enough, he would've lost.

It really wasn't as clear of a fight as people make it out to be.