Originally posted by Red Nemesis
...That doesn't change the fact that an empowered, hurried Dooku wasn't enough to take out a Yoda on enemy soil.
Again, to me the important part of the fight was never reached. Yes, Yoda was on the offense but Dooku was described as "countering Yoda's every move". Both of them were tiring: Yoda was described as "breathing hard" and Dooku as sweating through his beard but to me Yoda was tiring exceptionally faster due to his Ataru in contrast to Dooku's power-efficient Makashi and constant power boost from Vjun.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Perhaps I should've added in another member to team 1. Maybe ROTS Obi Wan.
I don't see ROTS Obi-wan making much of a difference. He'd probably just get pwned by their Force attacks as any of these three are better than Dooku. Maybe give them Kyp or or someone. I don't think anyone could really turn the tide though.
DE Sidious is gonna equal Luke more or less, and Anakin is weaker than either Bane or Exar. Kyp probably couldn't beat either of them either.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I don't see ROTS Obi-wan making much of a difference. He'd probably just get pwned by their Force attacks as any of these three are better than Dooku. Maybe give them Kyp or or someone. I don't think anyone could really turn the tide though.
"in teh zone" Luke would pwn Sidious
"in teh zone" Anakin could take on Bane and Exar as well, although the latter has amulets.
If Obi Wan were here, he could take on Bane while Anakin avoids amulet blasts from Exar and tries to close the distance. In a lightsaber duel "in teh zone" Anakin would likely beat Exar.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
"in teh zone" Luke would pwn Sidious"in teh zone" Anakin could take on Bane and Exar as well, although the latter has amulets.
If Obi Wan were here, he could take on Bane while Anakin avoids amulet blasts from Exar and tries to close the distance. In a lightsaber duel "in teh zone" Anakin would likely beat Exar.
Luke absolutely would not pwn Sidious. They're roughly equal, as in DE it was said that Sidious at that point was an embodiment of the Force, aka, as strong as it gets. This will be extremely close.
Anakin beat Dooku, but was not as strong as even ROTS Sidious. This is proven by Yoda directly telling Obi-wan that he was not strong enough to defeat, yet he felt that Obi-wan could defeat Anakin. Given that, either Bane or Exar will be defeating Anakin. Exar's unusual style plus superior knowledge, along with his empowerment from the amulets isn't going to let him lose to Anakin.
Obi-wan was pwned by Dooku in something like 20 seconds if I remember correctly. Both Exar and Bane are more powerful, so Obi-wan isn't going to last long enough to be of any assistance.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Luke absolutely would not pwn Sidious. They're roughly equal, as in DE it was said that Sidious at that point was an embodiment of the Force, aka, as strong as it gets. This will be extremely close.Anakin beat Dooku, but was not as strong as even ROTS Sidious. This is proven by Yoda directly telling Obi-wan that he was not strong enough to defeat, yet he felt that Obi-wan could defeat Anakin. Given that, either Bane or Exar will be defeating Anakin. Exar's unusual style plus superior knowledge, along with his empowerment from the amulets isn't going to let him lose to Anakin.
Obi-wan was pwned by Dooku in something like 20 seconds if I remember correctly. Both Exar and Bane are more powerful, so Obi-wan isn't going to last long enough to be of any assistance.
ROTS Anakin < Dooku. "in teh zone" Anakin pwned Dooku. Luke is already > DE Sidious (not by a lot, but by a decent amount), so "in teh zone" Luke would pwn Sidious, possibily faster than "in teh zone" Anakin pwned Dooku.
Huh? ROTS Sidious > Exar Kun. If Anakin can avoid the amulet blasts (which I admit is a little sketchy), then "in teh zone" Anakin could likely beat Exar in sabers. I don't know about any significant evidence that would put Exar above Dooku in sabers.
From the movie it seems as though Dooku caught Obi Wan off guard. And by 20 seconds "in teh zone" Luke likely could have beaten Sidious.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
ROTS Anakin < Dooku. "in teh zone" Anakin pwned Dooku. Luke is already > DE Sidious (not by a lot, but by a decent amount), so "in teh zone" Luke would pwn Sidious, possibily faster than "in teh zone" Anakin pwned Dooku.
WTF is "in teh zone" mean to you exactly. I guess that would be the logical place to start. Is this like super-sayan or some shit? "IT'S OVER 9000!!!!!!!"
I guess you missed the whole part about DE Sidious being an embodiment of the Force. That's as powerful as it gets. No matter how strong Luke gets, he can't pwn Sidious at that point. It's similar to Ganner's final stand, when he became an embodiment of the Force and went from a below-par Jedi to beast and slew hundreds, if not thousands of Vong.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Huh? ROTS Sidious > Exar Kun. If Anakin can avoid the amulet blasts (which I admit is a little sketchy), then "in teh zone" Anakin could likely beat Exar in sabers. I don't know about any significant evidence that would put Exar above Dooku in sabers.
I disagree with ROTS Sidious being better than Exar. That quote that said Sidious was the most powerful Sith I believe is more in reference to his all around "power," such as political and military, as opposed to his abilities in a 1v1 fight. Exar was trained by arguably the best master in his era and had access to more knowledge than he could possibly use in his lifetime. He created the double-bladed saber and as a result his own style to use it, which he took with him when the Order defeated him. Exar pwned Voodoo, who admittedly probably isn't one of the greatest Jedi ever; but is definitely up there, while simultaneously freezing the entire Senate (thousands of beings). Add in the amulet blasts, and Anakin is going down.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
From the movie it seems as though Dooku caught Obi Wan off guard. And by 20 seconds "in teh zone" Luke likely could have beaten Sidious.
Bullshit. Luke is not much better than DE Sidious. That fight is going to be one for the ages and last an extremely long time. What's to stop Obi-wan from being caught "off-guard" by these three Sith, any of which is more capable with the Force than Dooku? DE Sidious snaps Obi-wans neck in seconds.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
WTF is "in teh zone" mean to you exactly. I guess that would be the logical place to start. Is this like super-sayan or some shit? "IT'S OVER 9000!!!!!!!"I guess you missed the whole part about DE Sidious being an embodiment of the Force. That's as powerful as it gets. No matter how strong Luke gets, he can't pwn Sidious at that point. It's similar to Ganner's final stand, when he became an embodiment of the Force and went from a below-par Jedi to beast and slew hundreds, if not thousands of Vong.
"in teh zone" Anakin is the term given by a lot of people in this forum referring to Anakin in the state of mind in which he fought, and pwned, Dooku.
I disagree with ROTS Sidious being better than Exar. That quote that said Sidious was the most powerful Sith I believe is more in reference to his all around "power," such as political and military, as opposed to his abilities in a 1v1 fight. Exar was trained by arguably the best master in his era and had access to more knowledge than he could possibly use in his lifetime. He created the double-bladed saber and as a result his own style to use it, which he took with him when the Order defeated him. Exar pwned Voodoo, who admittedly probably isn't one of the greatest Jedi ever; but is definitely up there, while simultaneously freezing the entire Senate (thousands of beings). Add in the amulet blasts, and Anakin is going down.
Well, from what I remember many of the quotes saying that Sidious is the most powerful sith are in the context of a fight.
Being trained by arguably the best master in his era - Sidious was superior to Dooku, who was trained by arguably the best Jedi master of all time, Yoda.
Creating the double bladed lightsaber - how does this translate to being more powerful than Sidious?
Pwning Vodo - as you said, this isn't extremely impressive compared to Sidious's feats, such as pwning three high level Jedi Masters in a matter of seconds.
freezing the senate - Exar used a ritual, right?
Bullshit. Luke is not much better than DE Sidious. That fight is going to be one for the ages and last an extremely long time. What's to stop Obi-wan from being caught "off-guard" by these three Sith, any of which is more capable with the Force than Dooku? DE Sidious snaps Obi-wans neck in seconds.
Again, this is an "in teh zone" version of Luke. And again, Dooku seemed to have caught Obi Wan off guard.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
"in teh zone" Anakin is the term given by a lot of people in this forum referring to Anakin in the state of mind in which he fought, and pwned, Dooku.
I see that. I'm talking about Luke "in teh zone." What is that referring to exactly? How is that going to let him defeat two guys, either of which is arguably more powerful than Dooku? Oh ya, it isn't.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Well, from what I remember many of the quotes saying that Sidious is the most powerful sith are in the context of a fight.Being trained by arguably the best master in his era - Sidious was superior to Dooku, who was trained by arguably the best Jedi master of all time, Yoda.
Creating the double bladed lightsaber - how does this translate to being more powerful than Sidious?
Pwning Vodo - as you said, this isn't extremely impressive compared to Sidious's feats, such as pwning three high level Jedi Masters in a matter of seconds.
freezing the senate - Exar used a ritual, right?
What you remember isn't really important to me. A lot of us older members have had that argument dozens of times on here and I stand firm that it is not referring to 1v1 abilities.
Dooku was still inferior to his master. Exar practically butt-raped his. His creation of the double-bladed lightsaber shows his extreme proficiency with lightsaber combat. Mace finishing Juyo is one of his hallmark feats. Exar created an entire form start to finish for an entirely new weapon. He then successfully used that form many times. It just goes to show that his skill in lightsaber combat is top tier.
Sidious then lost to another master only moments later. Exar smashed Voodoo while controlling the Senate. In my book that beats killing a couple of off-guard Jedi.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Again, this is an "in teh zone" version of Luke. And again, Dooku seemed to have caught Obi Wan off guard.
What incarnation of Luke would this be exactly? How does that make him more powerful than an embodiment of the Force?
Exar Kun was also able to stalemate Ulic Qel'Droma in lightsaber combat. Eminence's post in the EU section shows why thats pretty sweet. But we also don't know his measurable abilities, so yeah.... Make of that what you will.
Sidious then lost to another master only moments later. Exar smashed Voodoo while controlling the Senate. In my book that beats killing a couple of off-guard Jedi.
It doesn't. Kun had to actually fight and beat his master. Sidious obliterated them. They had no chance to fight back. Plus they had their sabers on and where expecting a fight. They weren't 'off guard'.
What incarnation of Luke would this be exactly? How does that make him more powerful than an embodiment of the Force?
Since when has Sidious been an embodiment of the Force?
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I see that. I'm talking about Luke "in teh zone." What is that referring to exactly? How is that going to let him defeat two guys, either of which is arguably more powerful than Dooku? Oh ya, it isn't.
Basically, a very pissed off Luke who is also in a focused state of mind.
What you remember isn't really important to me. A lot of us older members have had that argument dozens of times on here and I stand firm that it is not referring to 1v1 abilities.
Did a source not say that ultimately Yoda wasn't able to defeat the most powerful sith of all time or something? And Sidious was also to my knowledge called the most powerful sith by TPM, and at that time he wasn't Supreme Chancellor yet, so wouldn't have a huge amount of political power, although Palpatine was a senator.
Dooku was still inferior to his master. Exar practically butt-raped his. His creation of the double-bladed lightsaber shows his extreme proficiency with lightsaber combat. Mace finishing Juyo is one of his hallmark feats. Exar created an entire form start to finish for an entirely new weapon. He then successfully used that form many times. It just goes to show that his skill in lightsaber combat is top tier.
How powerful was Vodo? We don't really know. We know that he was powerful, but we don't know how powerful he was.
Although inventing double sided lightsabers does indeed show that Exar Kun is very skilled with dueling, it doesn't put him above Anakin.
Sidious then lost to another master only moments later. Exar smashed Voodoo while controlling the Senate. In my book that beats killing a couple of off-guard Jedi.
"lost to another master" - that Master was Mace Windu, one of the most powerful Force users of all time who also created Vapaad.
Again, although these are impressive feats how do they compare to Anakin's?
What incarnation of Luke would this be exactly? How does that make him more powerful than an embodiment of the Force?
Where did you find this quote and how do you know that it isn't hyperbole/a figure of speech?
Luke was capable of resisting the gravitational pull of a supermassive black hole (which probably isn't hyperbole). 😉
Just gonna say this: I'm thinking ROTS Kenobi and ROTS anakin together could challenge one of these sith Lords. They might even beat Bane. But if they both attacked Sidious, they might keep him busy enough that Luke is the first one to die to both Bane and Kun. (they couldn't beat DE sidious tho)
They might beat Kun. Could Luke last long enough against Sidious and Bane for Anakin and Kenobi to kill Kun? But the sith would have to let them have that fight. any other configuration, Kenobi and ANakin die quickly.
THough I have another thought on that:
Kun's main strength is the amulet right? I have a feeling Luke could take that away from him.
Originally posted by truejedi
Just gonna say this: I'm thinking ROTS Kenobi and ROTS anakin together could challenge one of these sith Lords. They might even beat Bane. But if they both attacked Sidious, they might keep him busy enough that Luke is the first one to die to both Bane and Kun. (they couldn't beat DE sidious tho)They might beat Kun. Could Luke last long enough against Sidious and Bane for Anakin and Kenobi to kill Kun? But the sith would have to let them have that fight. any other configuration, Kenobi and ANakin die quickly.
THough I have another thought on that:
Kun's main strength is the amulet right? I have a feeling Luke could take that away from him.
Well, if Luke blitzes Sidious (and pwns Sidious since Luke is "in teh zone" for this fight), Obi Wan can hold off Bane and Anakin could possibly defeat Exar if it weren't for those amulets. With the amulets I'm not sure if Anakin could survive that long.
Doubt it. When Anakin went "in teh z0ne" he iddn't simply become far more powerful, rather he tapped into his immense potential. Virtually it was showing what he is capable off. Luke's potential on the other hand is unknown it may be as great as Anakin's but it may not be. The only sure thing is that it is higher than Sidious's (GL states this in an interview). As such we can't really know if he would get more powerful.
However, I still think Anakin can take down Exar. Sure tha man seems to be impressive but Anakin humilated Dooku which is far more impressive than any thing Exar has ever done. Exar's onle real chance is his amulets.
Bane on the other hand would beat Anakin simply because he has no counter to Bane's orbalisks.
Luke will beat Sidious. But it would take a long while.
Glentract
What you remember isn't really important to me. A lot of us older members have had that argument dozens of times on here and I stand firm that it is not referring to 1v1 abilities.
Glentract
Dooku was still inferior to his master. Exar practically butt-raped his.
Now.
Glentract
His creation of the double-bladed lightsaber shows his extreme proficiency with lightsaber combat.
Spoiler:
at making lightsabers.
Based on existing designs.
Glentract
Mace finishing Juyo is one of his hallmark feats.
Glentract
Exar created an entire form start to finish
Glentract
for an entirely new weapon.
Glentract
He then successfully used that form many times.
Yes he did.
Glentract
It just goes to show that his skill in lightsaber combat is top tier.
Spoiler:
I'm not trying to belittle him, but the case you're making is beyond awful.
Glentract
Sidious then lost to another master only moments later.
Glentract
Exar smashed Voodoo while controlling the Senate.
Glentract
In my book that beats killing a couple of off-guard Jedi.
^ That would be four Jedi standing in the Chancellor's doorway with their swords of durasteel-melting plasma out while Palpatine's sitting on his ass. You're familiar with the legendary reputation of Mace Windu, but even the ones who aren't Samuel L. Jackson were collectively recognized as some of the most celebrated swordsmen in the Jedi Order's history (a.k.a. some really badass motherfvckers) and they were all perfectly aware of the fact that the man they wanted to take into custody was the Dark Lord of the Sith. Those are four of the least "off-guard" people in the mythos, anywhere, ever.
I don't ever want to see that argument again.