Originally posted by Shoes
Alternatively, you could start by gutting the largest threat, then proceed to kill off the other, less experienced, less dangerous opponents.
It's possible to go about it that way but that is the more dangerous approach with somebody who can clearly stalemate you. He argued that if he would've attack Mace with the same blitz he did with the fodder he could've killed hiim first. That defies logic as he didn't blow his wad in that intial 10 second attack. No where close to being all of a sudden weaker after that when he fought Mace. He was at the same level and couldn't do a thing to Mace, which tell me if he tried that intial attack against Mace it would've failed just as his other attacks failed.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I'm not at all sure that this is a valid line of attack. The way I read that passage, Windu is praising Kenobi for fulfilling the Jedi code more aptly than himself[...]And when I read "of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him" it seems like an admission that the various forms have different strengths. Windu's Vaapad is *not* the best form to use, as Grievous was already able to mimic it to a high degree of accuracy.[...]
Mace doesn't talk about the code but straight about lightsaber combat. Even if I would follow your line of thought, there would be multiple problems with that:
a) Both Mace and Yoda are definitely the more versatile force users in comparison to Kenobi. They could both defeat Grievous rather easily using the force, which Mace even did twice (Obsession #5, Labyrinth of Evil). Hence the line of thought that Kenobi would have the "best chance" seems to be wrong.
b) Factual evidence. I've already mentioned how Mace simply owned Grievous twice using the force. When Kenobi faces Grievous in RotS, despite being clearly superior in terms of lightsaber combat, he still almost gets killed and just manages to survive due to his resourcefulness.
c) The line of thought that Grievous couldn't mimic Soresu doesn't fly. It's mentioned that Dooku trained him in all forms of combat and mimicking the (minimalistic) Soresu (or exploiting possible weakness in the form) should be as easy as doing the same for something complex like Vaapad.
@Faunus
I'm not entirely sure if you did get what I was aiming at. Maybe I can explain it better, if we start looking at the editing history of the sources in question.
The Sources
a) The RotS: Visiual Dictionary was released in April 2005 - one month before the movie itself.
b) The RotS novel was released at the same point in time April 2nd, 2005.
c) The movie, representing the highest form of canon and the - so far - latest interpretation of the events that happened, premiered at May 15th 2005 in Cannes. That gives Lucas additional 6 weeks of editing, which he - according to the RotS DVD extras - did use for some "last minute changes".
The conclusion: Neither the novel nor the Visiual Dictionary were produced in accordance to the final vision of Lucas or - using in-universe terms - the final events as they truely happened within the SW universe.
The Observations
Movie
There is no way around it: Lucas completly ruined the scene in which the Jedi move in to arrest Sidious, and it makes pretty much all of the people acting look like complete morons. Why?
- Sidious reveals a concealed weapon, instead of using it instantly to blitz the Jedi...
- ...he makes a dramatic pause to deliver the "It's treason then" line, before he ignites his lightsaber and stand there in a nice pose before moving. One should assume that the Jedi would have capitalized on the Sith Lord giving away all possible advantages. Instead...
- ...they stand there like damn statues. Nobody moves while Sidious delivers his nice sentence and poses. Then he jumps at the Jedi...
- ...who still didn't see any necessity to make a damn move. Even when Sidious lands in front of them, the only one that moves - backwards - shown with an extra cut to his person to emphasize this fact is Mace Windu. The other ones don't bother to move an inch. This leads to...
- ...Sidious performing a totally lame ass stabbing manouver that a geriatric blind man could have avoided, because of the ozon smell leading the slow mo movement of Sidious blade. Kolar, obviously, is not able to avoid that stab and dies. Instead of moving here - to cleave right through the complete undefended back of the Sith Lord...
-...Tiin apparently watches in horror how his mate is pierced to follow him into the realm of eternal darkness seconds after without bothering to perform any kind of defence.
- Fisto, at least, has the kindness to take a convenient way to leave the realms of the mortals.
Even if we would assume, that the entire scene does represent some slow-mo shot of what actually happened, the initial situation makes Sidious look like a moron (revealing concealed weapon instead of utilizing that advantage, then give the Jedi even more time to prepare by uttering another one-liner). It also makes look the Jedi damn ineffective, provided that Sidious pretty much sacrifices his advantages and they had seconds to prepare for attack, yet - with the exception of Windu - simply don't react.
Novelization
That entire thing looks quite different in the novel:
Originally posted by RotS Novelization
He turned desperately to Saesee Tiin. "Master Tiin-you're the telepath. What am I thinking right now?"Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of
red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk. Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor.Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps of the horns, severed just below the chin. Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!"
The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and
a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor."It doesn't..." Agen Kolar swayed.
His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbled from his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head. "...hurt..."
Here, Sidious first distracts Tiin and then blitzes the Jedi with his previously concealed lightsaber, proceeds to kill Kolar before Tiin's body even hits the ground and then faces Fisto and Windu - with the former, apparently, surving longer than in the movie.
The point: Not only does Sidious look smarter here, because he plays out all advantages he had. Also, despite of the same result, the Jedi look better. Tiin and Kolar are victims of a surprise attack, coming from an opponent utilizing a concealed weapon coupled with distraction and an extreme action in terms of force speed. This actually explains how two "celebrated swordsman" could go down so fast in a 4on1 situation.
Conclusions
It's pretty simple. One can't convey the ideas presented in the novelization and the Visual Dictionary to the event the movies shows. The situation presented in the novel is entirely different from what we saw in the films The attack of Sidious is presented in a different way, the actors look far more competent than they did in the movie. Consequently, the idea that those were competent lightsaber duelists appears to be far more legit. But that conflicts with what we saw in the movie.
Which leaves two options here: Either we accept that the Jedi trio accompaning Windu consisted of complete and utter morons, that were lucky to be able to hold their lightsabers but hat the reaction time of a dead starfish (movie version). Or we accepted the ideas from the novel, but then we have to deal with the idea that Sidious needed to distract them and blitz them with a concealed weapon in order to stand a chance.
The final conclusion remains the same: Sidious is not as good in combat as some people here may think. Which was the entire point...
Context: Mace and Obi-Wan talking
You were right by pointing out that this entire conversation can be interpreted in a certain way. But since you mentioned "context" here: Does that dialog really make sense to you?
We have two members of the Jedi High Council here. The governing body of an organization that is build upon the fundamental thesis that emotions should be controlled and that they and a Jedi is guided by the force. Given that two fundamental principles, you really think that one of those would attempt to bolster the others confidence. The confidence in what?
"The Force", should be the answer here, because: "The Force is what gives a Jedi his power..." (Obi-Wan, Episode IV: A New Hope). Yet Mace does almost systematically ignore the Force in his considerations and thoughts, despite the fact, that he himself did defeat Grievous via a force manouver in LoE. Does that make sense?
Instead he lectures Jedi on his lightsaber ability. I'm afraid. You reasoning doesn't make sense because of two specific reasons:
a) Why the hell should Windu mention Yodas lightsaber skill here. Sure, Yoda compensates his lack of reach with his style, but that doesn't make him a bad Jedi and even less a bad duellist.
b) How should Grievous learn anything from Kenobi or anybody else? Dooku has already trained him in all lightsaber forms. Besides, as you've quoted yourself:
Mace Windu, RotS Novelization
"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them."
Emphasis mine.
But none of that was the point. The point was that Windu holds his fellow Jedi in a very high esteem, at times apparently overestimating their abilities. Do you really think that there was no Jedi in the Order that could have brought Depa Billaba down on Haruun Kal (not even Yoda)? Do you really think that Yoda (or Anakin for that matter) would have performed worse against Grievous than Kenobi did in RotS? I don't.
Hence I don't think that the trio was anywhere close to being among the best the order has ever produced. Real proof to the contrary? Apparently non-existant.
On Obi-Wan:
Nai
But since you mentioned "context" here: Does that dialog really make sense to you?
But that doesn't mean I'm taking it the wrong way.
Nai
a) Why the hell should Windu mention Yodas lightsaber skill here. Sure, Yoda compensates his lack of reach with his style, but that doesn't make him a bad Jedi and even less a bad duellist.
The only way that aspect of the passage would make sense would be if it were about more than just swordsmanship. I read it to an extent as Nemesis did; it's as much an observation of Obi-Wan's character as it is of his skill, if not moreso. Again, given that Obi-Wan himself has already beaten Grievous (T-Canon, to boot) this strikes me as the most immediately plausible interpretation.
Nai
c) The line of thought that Grievous couldn't mimic Soresu doesn't fly. It's mentioned that Dooku trained him in all forms of combat and mimicking the (minimalistic) Soresu (or exploiting possible weakness in the form) should be as easy as doing the same for something complex like Vaapad.[...]
b) How should Grievous learn anything from Kenobi or anybody else? Dooku has already trained him in all lightsaber forms. Besides, as you've quoted yourself:
Emphasis mine.
Revenge of the Sith
He is simplicity itself.That is his power.
Before Obi-Wan had left Coruscant, Mace Windu had told him of facing Grievous in single combat atop a mag-lev train during the general's daring raid to capture Palpatine. Mace had told him how the computers slaved to Grievous's brain had apparently analyzed even Mace's unconventionally lethal Vaapad and had been able to respond in kind after a single exchange.
"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him."
This pronouncement had startled Obi-Wan, and he had protested. After all, the only form in which he was truly even proficient was Soresu, which was the most common lightsaber form in the Jedi Order. Founded upon the basic deflection principles all Padawans were taught-to enable them to protect themselves from blaster bolts-Soresu was very simple, and so restrained and defense-oriented that it was very nearly downright passive.
There will be no such gains to be had with "the" master of Soresu; Grievous has never favored the passive, orthodox approach. He simply doesn't work that way.
Nai
But none of that was the point. The point was that Windu holds his fellow Jedi in a very high esteem, at times apparently overestimating their abilities.
Nai
Hence I don't think that the trio was anywhere close to being among the best the order has ever produced. Real proof to the contrary? Apparently non-existant.
I agree that there's no longer a reason to believe Saesee Tiin was a swordsman for the ages, and I'll concede that Kolar's position is hardly concrete either. Fisto, however, singlehandedly overpowered General Grievous; I would think that alone would justify his claim to the top tiers of Jedi swordmastery.
If I didn't respond directly to something important it's because I felt it was addressed in the above. If this is not the case, let me know. I'll get to the Palpatine issue sometime before tomorrow night.
Originally posted by Eminence
Why did he mention himself here? His need to channel an inner darkness into a weapon of light has hardly dented his reputation in the Order as a revered Jedi, and has made him one of the most formidable warriors in history. Why does Obi-Wan's lack of a deeper weakness mean anything here at all?
Well.
Mace has a real flaw from the perspective of a Jedi. He can't really control his inner darkness and, therefore, has to channel it through his lightsaber style. That would fit into the "Obi-Wan is the better Jedi" line of thought, as he - in comparison to Windu - is closer to the "ideal Jedi".
The only way that aspect of the passage would make sense would be if it were about more than just swordsmanship. I read it to an extent as Nemesis did; it's as much an observation of Obi-Wan's character as it is of his skill, if not moreso. Again, given that Obi-Wan himself has already beaten Grievous (T-Canon, to boot) this strikes me as the most immediately plausible interpretation.
Of course it is also an observation of Obi-Wan's character. But one can't remove the "lightsaber ability" talk from the dialogue here, in favor for that subtext. Mace is reflecting on Obi-Wan's character but, imho - much like the Kolar thing you mention later - I think he is overestimating Obi-Wan's chances / skill here.
In a duel with Obi-Wan, Grievous has absolutely nothing to gain from mimicking Soresu, a form rooted in simplicity and impassivity. His tutelage under Dooku ensured his familiarity with the seven classical forms, yes. That alone doesn't mean he was ever a true master of all of them, or even if he was that he didn't have anything to gain by noting and adapting to - or adopting - the idiosyncrasies inherent in the martial styles of every highly skilled swordsman he faced. It's actually explicitly stated that he does.There will be no such gains to be had with "the" master of Soresu; Grievous has never favored the passive, orthodox approach. He simply doesn't work that way.
My line of thought was actually this: At some point of the duel, Kenobi would be in desperate need to use some offensive manouvers in order to defeat Grievous. In that department he is completely lacking - especially compared to Yoda and Mace. Regardless if you take Force ability or just pure lightsaber skill into consideration.
Thus, Mace's judgement is pretty much off. Maybe just because he didn't take that things into consideration or because he didn't want to take this things into consideration, as he would have to place himself above Kenobi if he did or - philosophically - would have had to admit that sometimes some "aggression" is needed in order to win a fight.
I'd say this is only true because he believed that he and Kolar alone would be enough of a failsafe in the event that Sidious made a move. I don't think it means any of his [relevant] observations are patently untrue.
Well. I didn't want to say that Mace is completely off his rocker to think that he is accompanied by some pretty good duellists. He merely makes some "biased" judgement because he - probably - doesn't want to view himself as "number 2" of the Jedi Order just behind Yoda and - more important - with nobody even close to being in his own league. It's lonely at the top...
I agree that there's no longer a reason to believe Saesee Tiin was a swordsman for the ages, and I'll concede that Kolar's position is hardly concrete either. Fisto, however, singlehandedly overpowered General Grievous; I would think that alone would justify his claim to the top tiers of Jedi swordmastery.
One could interprete the events in that way. I'm not entirely convinced. Dooku outright tells Grievous that he wouldn't be able to take out one of the Jedi Council members (among them Fisto) in a straight duel (without using his normal tactics - ambush, distraction and so on). Not to mention that the Clone Wars series makes most of the villains look like total retards. Grievous not being able to defeat Ahsoka...lmao.
If I didn't respond directly to something important it's because I felt it was addressed in the above. If this is not the case, let me know. I'll get to the Palpatine issue sometime before tomorrow night.
K.