Originally posted by Lord Lucien
What are you talking about, Faunus? Look at Kolar's face. He so doesn't wanna be there.
That doesn't mean that they weren't prepared. If you're drafted into the Army and don't want to be there, you'd still be prepared when you're about to infiltrate a base. And that expression Kolar has may be a battle ready expression.
Originally posted by Eminence
You're familiar with the legendary reputation of Mace Windu, but even the ones who aren't Samuel L. Jackson were collectively recognized as some of the most celebrated swordsmen in the Jedi Order's history (a.k.a. some really badass motherfvckers) and they were all perfectly aware of the fact that the man they wanted to take into custody was the Dark Lord of the Sith. Those are four of the least "off-guard" people in the mythos, anywhere, ever.I don't ever want to see that argument again.
Funny.
When you type "collectively" you are certainly referring to the collective of cells that form Mace Windu's brain, right? Because the line of thought that they were some of the greatest duellists ever did emerge from that very spot: Mace Windu's brain. The same Mace Windu that in the very same source (the RotS-Novel) puts Obi-Wan Kenobi above himself and Yoda in the lightsaber department and the same Mace Windu that - in a source written by the same author (Shatterpoint) - puts his own apprentice above himself in terms of bladework.
Do you spot a certain pattern there? Can it be that Mace Windu simply holds his contemporary Jedi in a very high regard - a fact that is reflected in his thoughts? Can it be that said thoughts don't necesserily give an accurate picture of reality?
And on top of that: So they were perfectly prepared to confront a Sith Lord, even though actually only Windu out of the four, has ever confronted a Dark Side using lightsaber duelist? They were, indeed, so skillful and perfectly prepared that two of them were cut down instantly, before being able to move?
Because, you see, to me it looks as if they were confronting a complete unknown (to them) in terms of ability, power and skill, which is not exactly "being prepared". A thought proven by the fact that they, you know, died. And given that - somehow - Fisto and Windu were capable of moving while Sidious was in the air, I have to suggest that those two did actually possess far superior reactions and / or speed to Kolar and Tiin. Again this is proven by the fact that the two first victims of Sidious didn't react to his assault.
So I would encourage you to stop arguing facts we saw on screen by utilizing the thoughts of a character. Because that line of thought, quite frankly, makes absolutely no sense in the realms of logical reasoning. Unless you want to make Sidious look more capable in combat than he actually is. But, given where this line of thought originated from, this was - most likely - the actual purpose of introducing it to this forum at all.
Of course this was done, without taking the facts into consideration that
- the RotS-novel features a third-person limited narrator,
- consequently, this is a line of thought from Windu
- Windu can be pretty damn wrong and hardly represents an objective source when it comes to the actual abilities of his contemporary Jedi (as seen above).
But maybe that's all just some sort of minor detail that one can ignore while analyzing the source-material...?!
Originally posted by ares834
They are all called "celebrated swordsmen" in the RotS visual guide.
I didn't know that "fame" (something that "celebrated" hints to) was a synonym for "skill". I'm fairly sure they were all celebrated warriors due to their participation in the Clone Wars - which would apply to most Jedi who survived until the days of RotS -, yet I don't see how that allows any inference to their actual level of lightsaber mastery.
Originally posted by Eminence
I'm going to ignore the irony and point out that you're still completely wrong.
Great argument against me, oh wait, this isn't one.
Originally posted by Eminence
Please tell me you're joking.Now.
Absolutely not. Voodoo's weapon of choice was his staff. He was one of, if not the, most capable Jedi in the Order and he was demolished by Exar. That's damn impressive on Exar's part.
N
Originally posted by Eminence
o, it shows his proficiencySpoiler:
at making lightsabers.Based on existing designs.
If you can make a lightsaber unlike any ever seen by Jedi before, it's a very good indicator of high level knowledge with the weapon. I don't see how you don't find that to be a valid point.
Originally posted by Eminence
Mace combining his high level mastery of multiple forms with the expertise of one of the greatest lightsaber instructors in Jedi history to introduce a unique metaphysical element to Juyo and then kick the galaxy's ass with the end result is one of his hallmark feats.Yes it is and it is really impressive. What I'm saying is that Exar creating a new form for use with his weapon is up there too.
[QUOTE=12782434]Originally posted by Eminence
[B]When was it confirmed that his style was ever completed?
When he used it to cut down his enemies...
Originally posted by Eminence
See [three lines [inclusive]] above.
Originally posted by Eminence
If by "many" times you mean twice, against Masters Vodo and Ood Bnar, the latter of whom promptly turned himself into a tree... yes.Yes he did.
2 and 0 isn't a bad record.
Originally posted by Eminence
For the era? Certainly. For all time? There are easily over a dozen who have at least as worthy a claim to the tier.Spoiler:
I'm not trying to belittle him, but the case you're making is beyond awful.
The thing is though is that there are just as many, if not more, who "have at least as worthy a claim to the tier" over Obi-wan or Anakin.
I think Nai did a fine job addressing the rest, so I see no reason to be redundant and not bother you with responding to arguments twice.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What was the exact line where Windu said Kenobi was above him and yoda in bladework... I don't remember this line AT ALL in the ROTS Novel.
Originally posted by Revenge of the Sith Novelization
"In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him [Grievous]."This pronouncement had startled Obi-Wan, and he had protested. After all, the only form in which he was truly even proficient was Soresu, which was the most common lightsaber form in the Jedi Order. Founded upon the basic deflection principles all Padawans were taught-to enable them to protect themselves from blaster bolts-Soresu was very simple, and so restrained and defense-oriented that it was very nearly downright passive.
"But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad-or Yoda's mastery of Ataro-"
Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataro is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"
Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way.
"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said,
shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?"
Windu proclaims that Obi-Wan - according to him - has the best chance out of all living Jedi to take out Grievous and also calls him a "greater" swordsman than he is himself. Both statements seem to suggest that Mace views Kenobi as a better, greater swordsman than himself and Yoda ("all living Jedi"😉.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Windu proclaims that Obi-Wan - according to him - has the best chance out of all living Jedi to take out Grievous and also calls him a "greater" swordsman than he is himself. Both statements seem to suggest that Mace views Kenobi as a better, greater swordsman than himself and Yoda ("all living Jedi"😉.
And when I read "of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him" it seems like an admission that the various forms have different strengths. Windu's Vaapad is *not* the best form to use, as Grievous was already able to mimic it to a high degree of accuracy. Kenobi's passive, defensive form would be less likely for Grievous to be able to learn or grow from. This particular attribute may have been one among many factors that make Kenobi the superior candidate for this particular battle. This is a classic case of how ABC argument can fail; the attributes that served him so well against Grievous wouldn't have helped against Sidious, for example. This line is only applicable for a killing-Grievous contest.
Also, this is not the only time that Kenobi's value as a Jedi is noted; Dooku muses on how Obi-Wan exhibits every sign of an exemplary Jedi:
Kenobi, now-he was something else entirely: a classic of his obsolete kind. He simply stood gazing calmly up at Dooku and the super battle droids that flanked him, hands open, utterly relaxed, on his face only an expression of mild interest.[...]
Now the scene below subtly altered, though to the physical eye there was no change. Powered by the dark side, Dooku's perception took the measure of those below him with exhilarating precision.
Kenobi was luminous, a transparent being, a window onto a sunlit meadow of the Force.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I'm not at all sure that this is a valid line of attack. The way I read that passage, Windu is praising Kenobi for fulfilling the Jedi code more aptly than himself. Kenobi's form is one of defense, rather than attack, which is much more compatible with the Code than is Yoda's Ataru or is Vaapad. (See the final sentence of the passage you quoted, which is asking about motives rather than skill level.) The praise is on an ideological level, rather than a practical one.And when I read "of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him" it seems like an admission that the various forms have different strengths. Windu's Vaapad is *not* the best form to use, as Grievous was already able to mimic it to a high degree of accuracy. Kenobi's passive, defensive form would be less likely for Grievous to be able to learn or grow from. This particular attribute may have been one among many factors that make Kenobi the superior candidate for this particular battle. This is a classic case of how ABC argument can fail; the attributes that served him so well against Grievous wouldn't have helped against Sidious, for example. This line is only applicable for a killing-Grievous contest.
Also, this is not the only time that Kenobi's value as a Jedi is noted; Dooku muses on how Obi-Wan exhibits every sign of an exemplary Jedi:
Good post and I agree with this line of thought on Mace could've meant.
Borbarad
Funny.
Nai
When you type "collectively" you are certainly referring to the collective of cells that form Mace Windu's brain, right?
Nai
Because the line of thought that they were some of the greatest duellists ever did emerge from that very spot: Mace Windu's brain.
Which doesn't countermand the point (see below).
Nai
The same Mace Windu that in the very same source (the RotS-Novel) puts Obi-Wan Kenobi above himself and Yoda in the lightsaber department
Revenge of the Sith
There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from the other great swordsbeings of the Jedi Order. He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become.He is simplicity itself.
That is his power.
Before Obi-Wan had left Coruscant, Mace Windu had told him of facing Grievous in single combat atop a mag-lev train during the general's daring raid to capture Palpatine. Mace had told him how the computers slaved to Grievous's brain had apparently analyzed even Mace's unconventionally lethal Vaapad and had been able to respond in kind after a single exchange.
"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him."
This pronouncement had startled Obi-Wan, and he had protested. After all, the only form in which he was truly even proficient was Soresu, which was the most common lightsaber form in the Jedi Order. Founded upon the basic deflection principles all Padawans were taught-to enable them to protect themselves from blaster bolts-Soresu was very simple, and so restrained and defense-oriented that it was very nearly downright passive.
"But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad-or Yoda's mastery of Ataro-"
Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataro is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"
Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way.
"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?"
"I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really-"
"Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."
This is, in essence, a pep talk. There's really no good reason why you'd fail to acknowledge the tremendous likelihood that Windu is simply trying to bolster Kenobi's confidence in his own ability; after all, Windu, Fisto, and Obi-Wan himself had each beaten Grievous on their own in the past.
If you will yourself into interpreting the passage in the manner which most conveniences you, we're simply going to agree to disagree.
Nai
and the same Mace Windu that - in a source written by the same author (Shatterpoint) - puts his own apprentice above himself in terms of bladework.
Shatterpoint
On that day in Nar Shaddaa, she showed me blade work that surpassed my own; she had continued to grow and study and progress in Vaapad as well as the Force.
Nai
And on top of that: So they were perfectly prepared to confront a Sith Lord, even though actually only Windu out of the four, has ever confronted a Dark Side using lightsaber duelist?
Nai
They were, indeed, so skillful and perfectly prepared that two of them were cut down instantly, before being able to move?
Spoiler:
The circumstances being any lightsaber duel.
They'd practically have to be off-planet to survive Palpatine. That doesn't mean they suck, it means Palpatine's simply beyond them.
Nai
Because, you see, to me it looks as if they were confronting a complete unknown (to them) in terms of ability, power and skill, which is not exactly "being prepared".
Spare me the bullshit. I'm not pretending the trio would ever have been a match for Palpatine, which is precisely why it doesn't make a difference that they didn't know how powerful he was; they wouldn't have stood a chance anyway.
Nai
A thought proven by the fact that they, you know, died. And given that - somehow - Fisto and Windu were capable of moving while Sidious was in the air, I have to suggest that those two did actually possess far superior reactions and / or speed to Kolar and Tiin.
2.) Perhaps more obvious, being one of the best swordsmen of his [or any] era doesn't require that he be on par with the best swordsmen of his or any era, particularly when his era brought to arms many of the most gifted and powerful beings in history. Kolar does not need to have reaction times or Force-strength or skill equal or even necessarily close to Windu's to rank as one of the best "bladesbeings" in Jedi history, because Windu sets a very high standard. In all of Jedi history up until that point, Yoda might be the only Master who can be proclaimed a superior swordsman.
3.) Given that his entire team was slaughtered "before he knew what happened" (Ultimate Visual Guide), it's entirely possible that Windu might have met a similar fate as the rest had he been the first to be targeted by Palpatine.
(You'll notice he wasn't.)
Glentract
Great argument against me, oh wait, this isn't one.
Gideon
[quote]The New Essential Chronology Page 84
Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
What you were looking for was this:
Gideon
It should be noted, however, that the statement is from an in-universe source. The New Essential Chronology is actually written by Voren Na’al and the Galactic Alliance Historical Council, not a source from the out-of-universe omniscient narrator. What does this mean? That, simply put, this source alone cannot be used as conclusive evidence that Palpatine is more powerful than any other Sith Lord in history. That said, it is a credible and well-written chronology, drafted by the historical council of a galactic superpower with access to nearly unlimited resources; a far cry from an unsubstantiated or dubious claim made by a fallible individual. Though it cannot be used singularly, it is credible enough to function as a supplement to the rest of the argument.
Glentract
Absolutely not. Voodoo's weapon of choice was his staff. He was one of, if not the, most capable Jedi in the Order and he was demolished by Exar. That's damn impressive on Exar's part.
Because that's completely retarded.
Glentract
If you can make a lightsaber unlike any ever seen by Jedi before, it's a very good indicator of high level knowledge with the weapon. I don't see how you don't find that to be a valid point.
Glentract
When he used it to cut down his enemies...
Glentract
2 and 0 isn't a bad record.
Glentract
The thing is though is that there are just as many, if not more, who "have at least as worthy a claim to the tier" over Obi-wan or Anakin.
Huh. so that quote about Kenobi:
Kenobi was luminous, a transparent being, a window onto a sunlit meadow of the Force.
Is yet ANOTHER quote about how in tune with the force Kenobi was.
Try this:
Eyes fixed on the Sith Lord, Obi-Wan Kenobi went deep inside himself, connecting with the Force he had worked so hard to understand. Calming himself, stilling the trembling of his heart, and banishing his anger and fear, he called upon the last of his reserves. With clarity of purpose and strength of heart...
or
he was using his hands and eyes and ears purely as focusing channels for the Force. He didn't know what he was looking for, but he trusted he would recognize it when he found it.
The Force had let him collapse as though he'd suddenly fainted, then it brought his lightsaber from his belt to his hand and ignited it while he turned his fall into a roll... and as the force brought Obi-Wan back to his feet, the force also nudged the crippled bodyguard to topple sideways into the pather of the blade...
But it was not Obi-Wan who would defeat them; Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting. He was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him.
Letting go of intention, letting go of desire, letting go of Life, Obi-Wan fixed his entire attention on a thread of the Force that pulled him toward Grievous; not where grievous was, but where grievous would be when Obi-Wan got there.
I'm thinking Kenobi gives himself over to the force more completely, more often than anyone else in the mythos, and is therefore a chronic overachiever.
Originally posted by Eminence
Apparently.No, Nai, I'm referring to the collective: Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, and Agen Kolar.
I was under the impression that the line was in Revenge of the Sith: The Visual Dictionary, but it states that the trio were all "celebrated swordmasters."
Which doesn't countermand the point (see below).
You're ignoring the nature of the conversation and therefore the context in which the statement was made.
(The highlights give us one big reason why Obi-Wan's style will serve him so well against Grievous; the general won't learn anything from him.)
This is, in essence, a pep talk. There's really no good reason why you'd fail to acknowledge the tremendous likelihood that Windu is simply trying to bolster Kenobi's confidence in his own ability; after all, Windu, Fisto, and Obi-Wan himself had each beaten Grievous on their own in the past.
If you will yourself into interpreting the passage in the manner which most conveniences you, we're simply going to agree to disagree.
Inaccurate because...?
Kit Fisto dueled Ventress on Ord Cestus, though I'm not sure how your point is remotely relevant.
This is stupid. An inability to defend themselves doesn't mean they weren't as prepared as physically possible under the circumstances, Nai.
Spoiler:
The circumstances being any lightsaber duel.They'd practically have to be off-planet to survive Palpatine. That doesn't mean they suck, it means Palpatine's simply beyond them.
Being unable to compensate for how much better than them Palpatine was doesn't mean they were "off-guard" in the manner Glentract evinced. Somehow Vodo Siosk-Bass is more prepared for a Sith Lord with a double-bladed lightsaber than three "celebrated swordmasters" accompanying Mace Windu to the arrest of the chancellor of the galaxy are for their enemy, and for this reason Kun's singular defeat of his master is more impressive than Palpatine's massacre of three prominent Jedi Masters?
Spare me the bullshit. I'm not pretending the trio would ever have been a match for Palpatine, which is precisely why it doesn't make a difference that they didn't know how powerful he was; they wouldn't have stood a chance anyway.
1.) Saesee Tiin is - barring the man who started podracing at six - the most esteemed pilot in the Jedi Order. He has the advantages of both Jedi training and innate telepathy to aid him, and if the opening chapters of Revenge of the Sith make anything clear it's that being a starfighter pilot requires prodigious reaction times. Being the best of starfighter pilots would, logically, necessitate preternatural reflexes even amongst peers.
2.) Perhaps more obvious, being one of the best swordsmen of his [or any] era doesn't require that he be on par with the best swordsmen of his or any era, particularly when his era brought to arms many of the most gifted and powerful beings in history. Kolar does not need to have reaction times or Force-strength or skill equal or even necessarily close to Windu's to rank as one of the best "bladesbeings" in Jedi history, because Windu sets a very high standard. In all of Jedi history up until that point, Yoda might be the only Master who can be proclaimed a superior swordsman.
3.) Given that his entire team was slaughtered "before he knew what happened" (Ultimate Visual Guide), it's entirely possible that Windu might have met a similar fate as the rest had he been the first to be targeted by Palpatine.
(You'll notice he wasn't.)
I think most of what you said makes sense.. My one contention though is with No. 3… I think that is possible but not probable. It seems more logical that the emperor with his vast force powers and general knowledge of the Jedi knew Mace would be the toughest to kill and the main problem. You would attack somebody first who you know can hold you off and leave yourself vulnerable to attack. You would dispose of the people the "fodder" first so you can concentrate on what will take all your energy. Besides that point, logic also dictates that the emperor didn't all of a sudden lose any significant amount of energy killing 3 Jedi in a matter seconds. He isn't that weak that he blew his wad in that short time period. When he proceeded to fight Mace Windu after killing the other 3, I would venture to say he was just fine and just as capable as before. Thus, when he fought Windu he couldn't overcome him or blitz him then or he would've. Seems more logical that if he could've done that to Windu as he had the others he would've either then or later on having plenty of opportunity to.