Originally posted by OneDumbG0So, in short... no. You have no evidence is what you're saying. If this were court, your client would be phucked 'cause you're proving to be a piss poor lawyer.
^ I haven't taken the time to measure just how respectively strong they are against each other. Because doing so to sufficiently satisfy the inexplicably exacting standards Dragonball critics have would involve a painstaking process of measuring levels of various characters (and their own respective incarnations) in the areas of power, speed, durability, and strength on top of something that we have on-panel directly measured, i.e., planet busting weakest-form Frieza, machine gun bullet-catching Roshi.It's not like we have anything to give us a rough measure of just how strong these Dragonball characters are compared to a normal human... like... a numerical-based power level system... pssh...
The way we calculate statistics and make legitimate assertions is by looking at feats. I think we can agree that DBZ character's biggest weapon, is energy attacks.
Just saying "Oh, well, so and so DBZ character is a planet buster"... is nonsense for three reasons. 1 being that, they bust planets, not using physical strength, but by using energy attacks. 2nd reason being that, everyone (that can use ki) in the history of that series is a planet buster, 'cause any amount of energy you shoot into a planet's core, will blow up the planet. 3rd reason is, in a fight against someone who absorbs and redirects energy at a higher level of strength and speed than it was fired, it's irrelevant and asinine to even bring energy feats into the conversation.
Now, on to physical strength, endurance and stamina... Thor has the advantage in every way. If you can't provide feats that legitimately backup you assertion that Cell/vegeta/Goku, etc, are superior... you lose by default. This is how a debate works, saying "nuh-uh" and using just 'cause logic, doesn't work. Unlike DBZ advocates, the people who support Thor have feats that support the claim that he can shatter mountain with a punch.
Vague assumptions based on nonsensical abc logic has never won an debate for anyone, you need facts. Until you can prove that a DBZ character has strength equivalent to someone who can lift creatures who are larger than a planet... you have no argument.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I haven't taken the time to measure just how respectively strong they are against each other. Because doing so to sufficiently satisfy the inexplicably exacting standards Dragonball critics have would involve a painstaking process of measuring levels of various characters (and their own respective incarnations) in the areas of power, speed, durability, and strength on top of something that we have on-panel directly measured, i.e., planet busting weakest-form Frieza, machine gun bullet-catching Roshi.It's not like we have anything to give us a rough measure of just how strong these Dragonball characters are compared to a normal human... like... a numerical-based power level system... pssh...
Also having a higher power level doesn't necessarily mean being better in every way. Case in point: Farmer with Shotgun had a powerlevel of 5 whereas Roshi's turtle had a power level of 0.001 IIRC. Now Farmer with Shotgun would beat Roshi's turtle in a fight but just because Farmer with Shotgun is 5000 times more powerful than the turtle doesn't mean we can project turtle's attributes times 5000 to Farmer with Shotgun. Obviously you're not going to say a normal human's skin is 5000 times more durable than a turtle shell.
The power level system seems to rate damage output, not overall stats, which is why when a character uses a powerful Ki attack their power level climbs. Its not like using that ki attack made them twice as strong, durable, and fast.
^ power level dictate how much energy someone has.... not, how strong they are, or how durable the are. You can get ridiculously hyperbolic and claim that there is a SS20; let's call that a fact, it's not gonna change that fact that DBZ character's are still highly susceptible to pain and injury... unlike Thor, Superman and other characters on that level.
Their strength and durability increases, Cell for example after he became perfect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSww4SynMtc
stuff like that carries through the entire story.
Originally posted by Parmaniac
Their strength and durability increases, Cell for example after he became perfect.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSww4SynMtc
stuff like that carries through the entire story.
Originally posted by King KandyI haven't claimed that but to say that only the "energy output" increases with the "scouter number system" is pretty ignorant imo.
In general yes, but in no way is someone with 20,000 power level always going to be twice as fast as someone with 10,000 power level. There's no evidence that supports those directly correlate, in fact there are many cases of someone with a higher power being slower than someone with a lower power.
All things being equal, which is assumed in forum battles, I'd say Thor would take a majority because of the abilities Mjolnir grants him (shielding, energy absorption, bfr, etc), but I could see Cell (or Vegeta) at his peak in the same neighborhood as Thor powerwise and, if he could separate Thor from his hammer, he could likely beat the goat piss out of Thor hand to hand. Mjolnir's pretty much the deciding factor though. Without it Thor would likely get stomped, but with it his defenses to most of Cell's most powerful attacks give Thor a huge edge.
Also, I'm not of the school of thought that since DBZ didn't feature a lot of comparable lifting feats to their Western Comic Counterparts that the characters are weaker physically, or that since they weren't written in the traditional Western style with narrated "quantifiable" speed feats stating their exact velocity that they can't be measured up fairly. It's clearly intended and depicted that the upper echeclon DBZ characters have the strength to shatter mountains and rip apart planets from the impacts of their blows, have the durability to survive mach speed impacts into solid earth, causing impact craters ( and hop up and continue battle), battle at such a speed that they appear invisible to observers without comparable speed/reflexes, and as a signature, have planetary destruction + level energy output. Taking that into consideration, and since, per rule on KMC, all character abilities, regardless of universe of origin, work in combat as they do per their depictions in their native universes (meaning none of those "The Speed Force doesn't exist in _______'s universe, so it wouldn't even work on him anyway" or "There's no way of knowing if a mountain on Marvel Earth is as dense as a mountain on Image or Darkhorse Earth." arguments), that at least the big 3 (Goku, Vegeta, Buu/Uubu) and a few others are in the Wonder Woman to Superman+ tier despite not having the explicitly stated feats for comparison, because it's pretty clearly the intent of their depictions.
Originally posted by ParmaniacUh, energy output is the only thing a scouter detects. I wasn't trying to say that they didn't get stronger or more durable as their power level increases. What i mean is that, characters never get to the point where they are invulnerable to injury or pain.
to say that only the "energy output" increases with the "scouter number system" is pretty ignorant imo.
@ illadelph12
Separate Thor from his hammer? how? You'd have better luck seperating Wolverine from his claws.
Oh, it's their intent, is it? Ok, sure, whatever you say. btw, no one is claiming DBZ character's aren't strong, all I'm saying is that, you need to provide proof that they are as strong as Thor.. to this point, no one has. Also, even if they were even, you have yet to prove that DBZ character's are as durable as Thor, or that they have the Stamina Thor has.
Conjecture will not suffice.
Originally posted by marwash22I think you're wrong on this cause in the beginning of Z when Piccolo dropped his heavy clothes his power level increased without any ki charging/amping. I would agree that the biggest part of the measurement comes from the ki level so that they don't become invulnable.
Uh, energy output is the only thing a scouter detects. I wasn't trying to say that they didn't get stronger or more durable as their power level increases. What i mean is that, characters never get to the point where they are invulnerable to injury or pain.
I'll concede the point about what the scouter detects. Irregardless though, the primary point evades you... DBZ characters never, and I mean never, get to the point where their skin becomes rock-hard or are incapable of having their limbs broken. There's no way they are durable enough to take shots from Thor without getting battered and fatigued... Thor on the other hand, has limitless stamina and is far more durable.
You can't argue the contrary without using conjecture.
Off hand, after hours of fighting an army of Ultrons with the Avengers (Thor was doing most of the work.), Iron Man stated even Thor was starting to slow down somewhat.
No other instances spring to mind right now for some reason that highlight his stamina failing.
There was the recent scene in Uncanny where Thor nearly killed himself or something similar striking the barrier. I'm assuming that there are some other effects involved etc. or I'm actually tempted to call P.I.S. on that shit. I won't, but I'm tempted.
Thor's stamina and endurance are very high end, but not limitless.
Originally posted by marwash22Why is this a point?
@ Wei PhoenixWhen has Thor ever gotten fatigued?
And yeah, he did get shot in the face... and SS Vegeta (who is by all accounts a thousand times more powerful than kid Goku) got his arm broken. What part of "They are not invulnerable to injury" isn't clear?
Almost every character can be injured. It's part of fiction.
Also, since this thread is about Cell. Any damage like that would be fixed.
Originally posted by BlanketIt's a point... and one that you are missing, because, as you just admitted... the damage can occur. This isnt about whether or not a character can be damaged, it's about how hard it is to inflict said damage. Cell does not posses the level of resistance that Thor does.
Why is this a point?Almost every character can be injured. It's part of fiction.
Also, since this thread is about Cell. Any damage like that would be fixed.
Originally posted by King KandyGood point as show in the show when trunks and Vegata went their ascended SSj forms against cell as later reveal strength and power about went through the roff but speed didn't it wasn't a well balanced form
In general yes, but in no way is someone with 20,000 power level always going to be twice as fast as someone with 10,000 power level. There's no evidence that supports those directly correlate, in fact there are many cases of someone with a higher power being slower than someone with a lower power.