Revan vs Dooku

For one, if you think the Prequel Jedi were in any way, shape, or form the "Golden Age" of the Jedi, you need to step back and reanalyze everything from scratch. The Prequel Jedi were- by all accounts- overburdened peacekeepers who had put their faith in extremely... questionable tactics (see the disaster that was the Nimian form at Geonosis) and- very importantly- had next to no actual experience in fighting other forceusers in lightsaber duels. From what we see on record from the KOTOR era, the Jedi were far less stagnant and naive, were far more on a war footing than they were in the Prequel era, and routinely ran into things like other Dark Jedi and on occasion Sith war beasts (most infamously the Terentateks in the Great Hunt), and dealt with your regular blaster-wielding grunts by the bushel (see the comics and other EU for confirmation). In short, these guys were far better than the chaps who got mowed down by battle droids at Geonosis.

Enyalus: Thanks a lot. However, one quibble is that at the beginning of the thread it mentioned to tiers, with one being Darth Revan and the other being the redeemed Revan.

For one, if you think the Prequel Jedi were in any way, shape, or form the "Golden Age" of the Jedi, you need to step back and reanalyze everything from scratch.

In a threadmatchup between the phrase "golden age of the Jedi" and TH, "Golden age of the Jedi" would win. Canon > You

RN: Um, HOW is it G-canon that the Prequel trilogy is the "Golden Age of the Jedi?" By all accounts the Order is vastly, VASTLY smaller and less powerful than it has been at other points in time (see the wars against chaps like Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh), and by all accounts have been stuck in the role of overextended galactic peacekeepers for far too long and have had their skills atrophy to some extent as a result (again, the entire fiasco with the widespread adoption of the Nimian form). That, and the fact that next to nobody alive at the start of the Prequels actually knows about the bread and butter of confronting an enemy Jedi. Canon confirms as much in the movies themselves. And as you said yourself, Canon > you.

Yes, but in what respect did George Lucas issue that quote? In the-galaxy-is-at-peace-for-1000-years terms? In most-powerful-evah! terms?

Tortoise, I did that and did that much better.

Stop.

LL: May I ask what you are referring to?

The Golden Age Jedi were actually retards.

Agreed. So may I ask why the rebuff?

Obviously the Jedi were at their prime during Sadow's era. Hence the brick throwing.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Obviously the Jedi were at their prime during Sadow's era. Hence the brick throwing.

Back then, they just genocided there enemies....

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
RN: Um, HOW is it G-canon that the Prequel trilogy is the "Golden Age of the Jedi?" By all accounts the Order is vastly, VASTLY smaller and less powerful than it has been at other points in time (see the wars against chaps like Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh)

and by all accounts have been stuck in the role of overextended galactic peacekeepers for far too long and have had their skills atrophy to some extent as a result (again, the entire fiasco with the widespread adoption of the Nimian form).

That, and the fact that next to nobody alive at the start of the Prequels actually knows about the bread and butter of confronting an enemy Jedi.

Personnaly, I view the Jedi of the KotOR era as being some of the most powerful at least when it comes to battle. Sure the Jedi of the PT may be the "prime" but what exactly does that mean? Knowlege, numbers, power? We don't know; the conclusion that it means the greatest fighters seem to faulty, at least to me, as the Jedi of this era aren't fighter but peacekeepers and diplomats. However the Jedi of the KotOR era are warriors. Not only are some jedi survivors of the Great Sith War, the Jedi, prior to the KotOR, games took it upon themselves to exterminate all the Sith remnants of the galaxy. They also took it upon themselves to stop the Sith no matter the costs. The KotOR comics show the amazing power of the Jedi of this era, in fact Zayne Carrick, a failed padawan, has extrodinary power able to lift near a hundred miners simultaneously. The KotOR campaign guide sheds some light on this subject, "They (Jedi) are not as reserved and bureaucratic as in later times." "The many wars of this era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat. Some become masters on the battlefield; other become highly skilled duelists, able to battle dark Jedi and Sith in single combat."
And as for the Jedi prime, "More so than the Clone Wars, these are the days of the Jedi in their prime."

Originally posted by ares834

I agree. The Jedi of the PT were not known for incredible martial prowess.

Lets go back to the Korean War, both the north and south were constantly fighting with each other so much that both sides barely had the proper time to give their soldiers proper training, your logic of been involved in more battle = greater strength is moot.

Thats like trying to tell me WWII era America's military is vastly superior to todays just because they fought more when todays soliders are not only better trained but have better weapons

Originally posted by Alistair
But they had plenty of time, more time than the kotor era jedi to further refine their techniques, skills and combat prowess. Just because they don't fight other sith doesn't mean their skills have deteriorated considering there is the existence of sparring. The Jedi who fought in the Mandalorian wars are not the same Individuals who fought in the Jedi Civil War.

Lets go back to the Korean War, both the north and south were constantly fighting with each other so much that both sides barely had the proper time to give their soldiers proper training, your logic of been involved in more battle = greater strength is moot.
Thats like trying to tell me WWII era America's military is vastly superior to todays just because they fought more when todays soliders are not only better trained but have better weapons

Regardless I have evidence baking me up.

TH: Lucas said it was the Golden Age of the Jedi. His word is gospel.

Originally posted by truejedi
TH: Lucas said it was the Golden Age of the Jedi. His word is gospel.

The only use I have for her is Rule 34. Particularly one where she also has a dick and it goes past her knees while being a bit thicker than her legs.

Dooku loses once he remembers he forgot to change his old person diaper.

Area834: "Proof?"

Simple intuition with a few citations to back it up. At the start of the Prequels, the Jedi think the Sith have all been KILLED OFF for quite some time. As such, they are unlikely to place much emphasis on training to actually fight and defeat other Jedi. While they DO by all accounts PRACTICE against other Jedi, those are in very, VERY secluded contests indeed and by all accounts don't teach much about practically going after an enemy force user and taking them out. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were two of the better Jedi of this era and yet when they confronted Xanatos, both were woefully underequipped to actually fight him, as shown by his ability to actually defeat his old master and Obi-Wan a few times. Indeed, while both eventually managed to avoid defeat and even managed to eek out what can possibly be called a tactical victory, neither of them actually KILLED him, as he commited suicide. That does NOT bode well for Jedi prowess fighting other Jedi.

Alistair: "But they had plenty of time, more time than the kotor era jedi to further refine their techniques, skills and combat prowess."

And LOOK WHAT THEY DID WITH THAT TIME! By all accounts, when they actually got involved in fullscale war, they were mown down relentlessly by various Mooks, sometimes even droids (I will not include Order 66 here because it was even more lethal than the norm and even the KOTOR Jedi would probably be killed in it). And when Jedi are killed literally by the dozen by various grunts who have no specialist training whatsoever in bringing down Jedi, you KNOW something is up.

"Just because they don't fight other sith doesn't mean their skills have deteriorated considering there is the existence of sparring."

Not necessarily, but that happened anyway, as shown by the complete unprepardness of the Jedi whenever they faced an enemy Sith in the Pequel era.

"The Jedi who fought in the Mandalorian wars are not the same Individuals who fought in the Jedi Civil War."

True, but their TRAINING was. Old military wisdom tells you to train as you fight and if possible fight as you train, and the Prequel Jedi didn't train to fight much at all, whereas the KOTOR Jedi certainly did. And the results show by which side was more prepared to fight when the schiesten actually hit the fan.

"Lets go back to the Korean War, both the north and south were constantly fighting with each other so much that both sides barely had the proper time to give their soldiers proper training, your logic of been involved in more battle = greater strength is moot."

Strawman and false. One hardly gets a chance to refine one's tactical knowledge greatly when they are wiped out in sequence along with many of the rest, and by all accounts those who survived and fougth throughout the war WERE superior fighters compared to those that had set out to fight, even the North Koreans, who strategically were far weaker and less well equipped than they had been in 1950. Practical experience IS very powerful because (as the Soviets and later the Germans showed) you CAN indeed be "Trained Stupid."

"Thats like trying to tell me WWII era America's military is vastly superior to todays just because they fought more when todays soliders are not only better trained but have better weapons"

False analogy. That assumes that technology has vastly changed in between the KOTOR era and the Prequel one, which by all accounts (even by the fairly general standars of the relatively static SW universe) is not true. The main changes are in naval technology if anything. So the analogy is not WWII US VS Modern US but instead Napoleonic France VS Louis XIV's France or something in that vein. And honestly, depending on the circumstances I sometimes WOULD bet the WWII US or perhaps even WWI Germany or some such nation could beat us today, if for no other reason than because we today are irrationally casualty-phobic (which one can understand to a point, but when people cry out over taking 3,000 dead over the course of several years- which, for comparison, was a number reached in, say, the Meuse-Argonne offensive within an effing DAY- the staying power of the nation at large is very much in question) and is more inclined towards peace at any cost- even allowing the enemy a strategic victory- than was the case previously. In a straight up fight with fairly equal numbers the modern Army would almost certainly win, but in a prolonged fight with the public to take into account... we would have to see.

truejedi: "Lucas said it was the Golden Age of the Jedi."

AGAIN, as Enyalus asked, WHAT exactly did he mean by that? It almost certainly did refer to their martial power, as shown by the OTHER canon sources that paint a very different picture.

"His word is gospel."

To a point. To a point.

Originally posted by truejedi
TH: Lucas said it was the Golden Age of the Jedi. His word is gospel.

I think the question is (in ares' mind at least); what exactly does "golden age" mean?

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder

True, but their TRAINING was. Old military wisdom tells you to train as you fight and if possible fight as you train, and the Prequel Jedi didn't train to fight much at all, whereas the KOTOR Jedi certainly did. And the results show by which side was more prepared to fight when the schiesten actually hit the fan.

The Jedi's of both era's are trained for combat, one era simply had more time to further refine their combat training as opposed to another who was constantly fighting.

Besides, the prequel era jedi had the most powerhouses(Mace, Yoda, Shaakti, Sidious, Anakin etc etc).