In the absence of details it doesn't make particularly good sense to jump to the more unlikely of the possible scenarios. There's absolutely no reason to assume Revan "resorted to dirty tricks" that didn't involve the lightsaber he was dueling with or the Force, so we don't need to entertain the idea.
Originally posted by EminenceI'm just listing the possibilities and showing how nonsensical that legend guys logic is.
In the absence of details it doesn't make particularly good sense to jump to the more unlikely of the possible scenarios. There's absolutely no reason to assume Revan "resorted to dirty tricks" that didn't involve the lightsaber he was dueling with or the Force, so we don't need to entertain the idea.
All he says is "Revan could have done this, Revan could have done that, Revan could have done something to delay the invasion", i was just retorting with his very logic by claiming "Revan could have resorted to dirty tricks during the duel and then drew his lightsaber".
That guy is ridiculous.
Revan used a massive Force Drain to kill Malak, the captured Jedi, and every ounce of Dark Side energies on the Star Forge - using a little known Sith technique to transform himself into Megatron - then blowing up the Star Forge, single-handedly winning the war, and flying into the Unknown Regions to conquer Cybertron.
Originally posted by EnyalusWith legends "zeh logic tig3r!!", thats possible too.
Revan used a massive Force Drain to kill Malak, the captured Jedi, and every ounce of Dark Side energies on the Star Forge - using a little known Sith technique to transform himself into Megatron - then blowing up the Star Forge, single-handedly winning the war, and flying into the Unknown Regions to conquer Cybertron.
Originally posted by Eminence
Cybertron sans Optimus Prime, of course.
Revan-Megatron can do it all.
Originally posted by Letum Lettow
Any proof that Obama is anything other than an overrated hack who will end up doing even worse than Bush?
That is pretty much all the proof you need.
Edit: also, that Obama is pretty much immune to the anti-intellectualism of the Republican party since he isn't in the Republican party. That can't help but be good for the nation.
(Wow, I've been gone a long time, haven't I?)
Anyway, as enlightening as this particular mud-slinging match is, I must go with Revan. And while yes I am something of a Fanboi for him, I believe any objective person who takes a look at their credentials would come to the same conclusion, however grudgingly.
Firstly, do we have ANY reason in canon to believe Dooku is a great strategist and tactician? Yes, the man is smooth as silk and very charismatic, but throughout the EU and the series let's face it: the man is NOT known for his fine planning. He was able to form the CIS and lead it to a point, but the truth of the matter is that he made missteps. A LOT of them. He threw away unbelievable military and strategic advantages without really recognizing what he was doing (for instance, the project to ressurect the Dark Reaper, which tied down at LEAST hundreds of thousands of droids and other personnel and which must have cost more than a century or so of Tatooine's GDP only to loose it due to a fluke he by all accounts knew about but didn't adaquately prepare for without EVEN being able to use the damn thing to any extent, to say nothing of his dismal handling of Geonosis and other matters). Let's be honest here, the man is little more than a charismatic figurehead. A highly competent charismatic figurehead, but pathetically little more. When he runs up against difficult issues, his main response is to outsource the job to somebody else (Toth and the Saboaths for the Hex weapons, the TF for droid manufacturing, etc). Even on one-on-one combat he was grossly, GROSSLY full of himself and so certain of his skills that he thought he could fight a nice, showy duel using Makashi. Which to be perfectly fair worked wonderfully for most of the time, but the problem is that when it was actually countered by more aggressive and stronger blows designed to overwhelm Makashi (as Anakin did on the Invisible Hand), Dooku was too pig-headed to realize he was desperately in trouble and while he knew other lightsaber forms, he DIDN'T EMPLOY THEM at a time when he was clearly loosing and his tactic was clearly being outmatched. Suffice it to say that Revan- from an era that emphasized lightsaber-on-lightsaber combat and with his far, FAR more competent strategic mind- would find him fairly easy prey once he tested the Count for a while.
Secondly, while Dooku is a very powerful force user- the man was trained by Yoda himself- he firstly used it far too infrequently and- through no fault of his own- has suffered from the considerable devastation of the archieves of Jedi knowledge between the time of Revan and the time of his death. Virtually EVERYTHING that could go wrong for retaining the knowledge of the anchient Jedi DID go wrong. Firstly, we have the fall of Ossus during the war against Exar Kun. Granted, this happened prior to Revan's career, but the war against Kun was still in living memory at the time (as Jolee's presence shows) and it is possible that those who had studied at Ossus still provided some of their knowledge from copies of the original data or even from memory. However, as time went on and the generations of Jedi who could have gone to Ossus when it was intact died off, it is likely that at least large segments of the knowledge were (as Tott said) "lost forever." Secondly, we have the Jedi Civi War, which towards the end saw Malak do things like level the Dantooine Academy (and who knows what else it contained?) and the Jedi Purge by Kreia, Nihilus, and Sion, which killed off yet more of the Jedi "braintrust" to the point where they were near extinction and the Order functionally ceased to exist for a few years. Granted, while it is quite possible they were able to recover a lot- maybe even most- of the knowledge from the archieves (the Great Temple on Coruscant is more or less stated to be intact), but that means that at least some of it was lost. Along with almost all of the experienced Jedi. And if anything, the Sith got it even WORSE. Korriban- perhaps the creme de la creme of the Sith academies- was first gutted by Revan's raid (which we know at least killed the Headmaster and dealt with- in whatever form- the runner up) before it was further torn to pieces by the strife there after the war to the point where the planet was almost entirely uninhabited, after which it was picked over by scavengers and otherwise exposed to the corrosive elements. The academy on Malachor was oblitered with the rest of the planet, taking god knows what with it. And this is ignoring the deaths of virtually all Sith of note during this point in time. In effect, the knowledge base of both Sith and Jedi lore is devastated. This matter is (probably) helped in some way by the True Sith invasion and the resulting Galactic Cold War (which apparently sees the resurrection of both Orders, which possibly might be even more powerful than their predecessors which tore themselves up during the JCW and the aftermath), but we don't know how that ended or what shape either side was in. However, we know definitively by the time of the Dark Brotherhood that both sides have more or less forgotten a LOT of what they previously knew (again, Bane's reference to Revan's holocron >>> the entire DB archieves/studies MIGHT just seem like a case of blatant Marysuism to the Anti-Revanites, but consider this: what shape can the Dark Brotherhood's archieves be like if absolutely EVERYTHING they have collected over the decades- both in records and practical knowledge- utterly pales in comparison to the recordings of ONE Holocron of ONE anchient Sith Lord (albiet a very competent and powerful one)?)?
Then we have Ruusan killing off yet ANOTHER generation of the Jedi's practical knowledge while effectively ending the DB to pave way for the Banist Sith Order, which at some point in the future the Jedi thought they had killed off but didn't, as Sideous showed.
And ALL of this is compounded by the nature of the Prequel Jedi Order, which is geared towards civic peacekeeping and suffers from crippling issues like a lack of effective war experience and extremely watered-down training and techniques (again, see the Jedi at Geonosis) and a general ignorance of a LOT of their own history. We have no reason to believe the curriculum of the Jedi Knights was anything but of vastly poorer quality than that of their Old Republic counterparts, and while a lot of this is offset by his being trained by the two premier force users of his time (Yoda and Sideous), the fact remains that neither of them- particularly Yoda- were in a place to incorporate most of the anchient knowledge which by any reasonable measure was forgotten by history in massive amounts. Dooku IS very good but he can only compensate for so much.
Thirdly, there is the simple fact that (as mentioned above) Dooku is far too full of himself for his own good. This is canonically what killed him when he faced Anakin, and I do not see him wisening up in time against Revan. He might be far more cautious than he was when facing Anakin (who he previously defeated), but in the end he was still too cocky for his own good.
In short: Revan may not be the god a lot of the fanboys make him out to be, but Dooku has far too many flaws to be healthy, and in the end I do not see him coming out on top in either case.
(who he previously defeated)
Firstly, do we have ANY reason in canon to believe Dooku is a great strategist and tactician? Yes, the man is smooth as silk and very charismatic, but throughout the EU and the series let's face it: the man is NOT known for his fine planning. He was able to form the CIS and lead it to a point, but the truth of the matter is that he made missteps. A LOT of them. He threw away unbelievable military and strategic advantages without really recognizing what he was doing (for instance, the project to ressurect the Dark Reaper, which tied down at LEAST hundreds of thousands of droids and other personnel and which must have cost more than a century or so of Tatooine's GDP only to loose it due to a fluke he by all accounts knew about but didn't adaquately prepare for without EVEN being able to use the damn thing to any extent, to say nothing of his dismal handling of Geonosis and other matters). Let's be honest here, the man is little more than a charismatic figurehead. A highly competent charismatic figurehead, but pathetically little more. When he runs up against difficult issues, his main response is to outsource the job to somebody else (Toth and the Saboaths for the Hex weapons, the TF for droid manufacturing, etc). Even on one-on-one combat he was grossly, GROSSLY full of himself and so certain of his skills that he thought he could fight a nice, showy duel using Makashi. Which to be perfectly fair worked wonderfully for most of the time, but the problem is that when it was actually countered by more aggressive and stronger blows designed to overwhelm Makashi (as Anakin did on the Invisible Hand), Dooku was too pig-headed to realize he was desperately in trouble and while he knew other lightsaber forms, he DIDN'T EMPLOY THEM at a time when he was clearly loosing and his tactic was clearly being outmatched. Suffice it to say that Revan- from an era that emphasized lightsaber-on-lightsaber combat and with his far, FAR more competent strategic mind- would find him fairly easy prey once he tested the Count for a while.
Originally posted by Enyalus
TH makes good points. Particularly about the knowledge of the Force issue, and lack thereof....
tHIS IS NOT AN AREA THAT i KNOW VERY MUCH ABOUT. ASK HIM OR lIGHTSNAKE