Revan vs Dooku

It's too late for you, Ginger. Heavy handed but slow witted security guards are already flinging your belongings off of our property.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
GIDEON HAS ADDRESSED THIS PARTICULAR AVENUE OF ATTACK; i'M REASONABLY SURE THAT dOOKU HAD THE CHANCE TO SUCKLE AT THE TEAT OF SOME HOLOCRON OR OTHER THAT SOMEHOW INCLUDED (AND i QUOTE) "EVERY POWAH EVAH!"

tHIS IS NOT AN AREA THAT i KNOW VERY MUCH ABOUT. ASK HIM OR lIGHTSNAKE

I highly doubt that was the case, though.

Regarding Dooku's tactical ability, the fact is that virtually everything we see from him is that he is a very skilled Sith FOR HIS TIME. But even then, on the scale of the Anchients, he would likely be average. The simple fact is that he is overly dependent on Makashi, which fails when he meets an enemy with sufficient strength to overwhelm it. In addition, the man is far, FAR too cocky to keep as clear a head as he needs in a duel. The fact remains that he was killed by an Anakin Skywalker with little proper Jedi training (again, on the scale of the KOTOR knights) and absolutely no Sith training by this point in time who simply got angry enough. That does NOT say good things about his tactical acumen. And while he DID fight Yoda to more-or-less a standstill, a LOT of that had to be from his experience with his old master and their doubtless frequent sparring matches. And even then he was arguably on the retreat at the time until Yoda had to leave. In short, Dooku has a fairly poor strategic mind, tactically is unlikely to be distinguished in an era that cranked out Force users like China does defective products, and most cripplingly of all perhaps is his overwhelming arrogance. He tends to underestimate people and be too sure of himself, and that got him killed against Anakin and probably would against Revan.

As for Revan's tactical acumen, while we have far, FAR less direct, point-to-a-specific-point-and-analyze-the-styles evidence like we do with Dooku (the individual tactical decisions made by the player in game are not necessarily canon and are glossed over in canon) all evidence points to Revan being quite tactically accomplished. This is a man who defeated Mandalore the Ultimate- the greatest warrior amongst the Mandalorians at a time when they routinely had combat experience against Jedi, if only the Revanchists- so thoroughly and rapidly observers compared it to an execution. This is a man who by any estimate cut through at least dozens of Dark Jedi in his quest and who ultimately defeated a Malak who was effectively almost brought back from the dead at least once(from the captive Jedi) in a one-on-one fight . Simply put, Revan by any count routinely fought superior numbers of enemies, most of whom at least had experience fighting Jedi if they were not Jedi themselves, and while he DID have help a good deal of the time, the sheer numbers and frequency of these battles dwarf absolutely everything we have reason to believe from canon Dooku did. Revan is highly unlikely to make a foolish misstep like Dooku did, and if his tactical mind is anything like his startegic one, I would have to say Dooku is rather outmatched.

Where have I seen this sort of reasoning before? Ah, yes, I remember now. It's like a flashback from 2006.

And regarding Obama: I am sorry, but as a die hard Neocon, I do not see how Obama has been anything but a fiasco. The simple fact of the matter is that while Bush was far from perfect, at least he didn't do anything as blatantly stupid strategically as throw our alliances with Eastern Europe and South Korea into jeprody because of his severely ineffectual approach to diplomacy. Obama is far, FAR above his paygrade. The Turks, Iranians, Russians, Chinese, and Venezuelans have run rings around him, and he has a tendency to fire off his mouth before his brain is fully loaded even moreso than Bush (it is one thing to make gaffes right and left, but it is quite another to jump to conclusions almost instinctively that only are proven to be embarassements, as the issue regarding the Salvadorian political crisis and the Gates scandal showed). The man is well-intentioned, I am sure, but his actions thus far have either been ineffectual, counterproductive, or both at the same time, and I do not see him improving by much.

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
I do not see how Obama has been anything but a fiasco.

Red Nemesis: I was saying that Dooku had previously defeated Anakin on Geonosis (hence the mechanical arm) which doubtless didn't help any when he faced him again on the Invisible Hand.

Obama makes me sad cause he doesn't do things very good.

And there is really no shame in losing to a focused anakin. He WAS the chosen one after all.

Letum Lettow
Any proof that Obama is anything other than an overrated hack who will end up doing even worse than Bush?

Would you feel better if I said only Sarah Palin and her folksy genius could stand against Optimus Prime? Does political orientation dictate your reaction to (screaminyourfacepainfully) obvious facetiousness?

Originally posted by Enyalus
If you assume that Darth Revan passed on everything that he knew to Darth Bane and then Bane passed on all of that knowledge in his holocron, then I could see where Dooku's knowledge would be on par with Revan's.

I highly doubt that was the case, though.

I'm not going to comment more on this because I'm not going to pick up that burden of proof; ask Gideon.

Originally posted by Eminence
I don't get it.

Would you feel better if I said only Sarah Palin and her folksy genius could stand against Optimus Prime? Does political orientation dictate your reaction to (screaminyourfacepainfully) obvious facetiousness?

Edit: lmao

Sarah Palin is a doofus and everyone knows it.

Perhaps, but from what we have seen being "The Chosen One" just means being absurdly powerful in the force and being destined to do something galaxy-shattering.

Anakin's biggest problem has always been CONTROLLING his powerful force potential, which certainly is not one of Dooku's issues. Which is why Dooku defeated him on Geonosis. The simple difference between Geonosis and the Invisible Hand was that in the latter Anakin got enraged enough to attack aggressively enough to overwhelm Dooku's Makashi, a problem that could have been arguably solved at least partially by having Dooku switch styles. Dooku didn't. Why, I do not know, but it was clear that he underestimated Anakin and got too cocky. Which was a fatal mistake then, and is probably only moreso against Revan.

you said it yourself: "absurdly powerful in the force." absurdly

Dooku was cocky, but the novelization makes it clear that there was NOTHING he could have done to save himself. When anakin decided he was going to die, he was dead.

Regarding the Holocron, it is made very much evident that Bane CRUSHED the holocron when he was done with it. Which means it is likely not in working condition for Dooku to study. Now, it is slimly possible that all the teachings of the holocron went from Bane to Zannah to Cognus alllllllllll the way down to Sideous to Dooku, but only slimly. And this is before we bring the question of exactly how MUCH of his knowledge Revan put into the Holocron, and the fact that this was DARTH Revan speaking, who was certainly less powerful than Revan post-Redemption.

truejedi: For one, I certainly do not know it.

And regarding Dooku, then why did he win on Geonosis? The simple fact of the matter is that a great part of the reason there was "NOTHING he could do to save himself" was because he was stupid enough to not PLAN for an eventuality where he might actually NEED to escape from the IH tail between his legs. By the inadaquate preparations he made, his fatal overconfidence is only that much clearer.

TH: Out of curiousity, what did Revan know that Dooku didn't?

Ayn Rand once wrote a book as profound as it was easy to read. The title was Atlas Shrugged. One of the better lines in the book says, essentially, that when you arrive at a conclusion that doesn't mesh with reality, check your priors. One of your starting assumptions is incorrect.

Someone with more time to spare will be along presently to explain where you went wrong.

TJ: Ooh, tough one, particularly since tactical gameplay choices are usually not integrated into canon in any depth and what we know from canon regarding exactly WHAT the anchient lost knowledge was can probably be written down on the back of a fortune cookie message, but I'll take a crack at it anyway.

One VERY decisive advantage is a very deep and refined working knowledge of exactly how you go about and fight enemy Jedi that on the whole far outpace the extremely weak Prequel Order. By the time Dooku lived, all signs point to combat between Jedi being largely outside of living memory and what living memory there was being of examples that were far less notable, intense, and overall difficult than what happened during the Jedi Civil War. Dooku has SOME knowledge of how it goes, obviously (he managed to hold of effing Yoda, after all), but not really on the same level as Revan would have after routinely taking on enemy force sensitives usuing lightsabers that would outnumber he and his party two or three to one at any given time without stop.

Another crucial issue is that Revan would know quite a bit more about how fighting with actual force powers really works. Again, Dooku knows some of this (the Lightning) but not really against truly competetive Jedi on the old scale and certainly not to the degree that even Malak demonstrated on the Star forge.

Long story short: better, functional knowledge of tactics and combat in a time when battles between Jedi were fairly commonplace that would have largely been forgotten over time.

RN: Oh really? And your proof is?

Really quickly explain to me how the golden age of the Jedi were "outpaced" by the unknown combat abilites of the KOTOR era Jedi?

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
TJ: Ooh, tough one, particularly since tactical gameplay choices are usually not integrated into canon in any depth and what we know from canon regarding exactly WHAT the anchient lost knowledge was can probably be written down on the back of a fortune cookie message, but I'll take a crack at it anyway.