Revan vs Dooku

Originally posted by Alistair
So let me get this straight, the Jedi at that time were supposedly stronger due to their [b]training? So why would this training be abolished thousands of years later?

The Jedi's of both era's are trained for combat, one era simply had more time to further refine their combat training as opposed to another who was constantly fighting.

Besides, the prequel era jedi had the most powerhouses(Mace, Yoda, Shaakti, Sidious, Anakin etc etc). [/B]

There are several real world organizations in which the members do nothing but learn fencing and other forms of swordplay. Technically, a few of them are very good. After all, they have "more time to further refine their combat training."

None of them have actually seen real combat which means none of them are prepared for their heartrate skyrocketing or the adrenalin rush which reverts us back to our primitive "midbrain." People in real combat are literally ****ing scared shitless.

That being said, your moronic conclusion that somehow the PT era Jedi are going to be superior swordsman because they had more time to train as opposed to be interrupted by actual saber to saber combat just goes to show that you need to rethink your argument.

"So let me get this straight, the Jedi at that time were supposedly stronger due to their training?"

In PART (also considering the large amounts of knowledge that were lost between KOTOR's living memory and the Prequel trilogy) yes. Because these were warriors who ran into enemy Jedi on a fairly frequent basis and thus were trained to deal with them.

"So why would this training be abolished thousands of years later?"

Mostly because they got complacent after they believed the Sith had been killed off and thus more or less slowly abandoned the part of the curriculum about dealing with enemy force users to a very large extent. It also doubtless helped that pathetically few Jedi alive at the time had actually FOUGHT Darak Jedi.

"The Jedi's of both era's are trained for combat,"

That is akin to saying that both the SAS and the child soldiers of (say) the Lord's Resistance Army are both trained for combat." Not all training is equal. And while no that is not a direct analogy (the Prequel Jedi were far more competent than any given child soldier), it fits well enough.

"one era simply had more time to further refine their combat training as opposed to another who was constantly fighting."

Obviously you have little idea about military training. The bottom line any drill instructor will tell you is that training will ONLY get you so far.

And you keep talking about how the Prequel order had more time to "refine their combat training" in spite of the dearth of any evidence in canon that they were doing so. And even if they had, take an effing look at how much "good" that "refined training" did for them: in the Prequel era Jedi are ROUTINELY killed by various mooks and other non-jedi who more often than not have no specialized training or equipment designed to HUNT Jedi. Some of these people are even on the High Councile (Yarael Poof, for instnace, was mortally wounded by a non-force sensitive deposed dictator on Coruscant), to say nothing of the fiasco that was Geonosis.

This is in comparison to the KOTOR era order, against which Revan created an elite team of assassins to specifically target if he did not actually employ Dark Jedi to kill. Speaks quite a bit about the difference in concern, ja?

"Besides, the prequel era jedi had the most powerhouses(Mace, Yoda, Shaakti, Sidious, Anakin etc etc)."

Impossibly disputable. Particularly since Sidious is a SITH, not a Jedi, and who recieved no Jedi force training whatsoever. Particularly since we only really KNOW who is a powerhouse and who isn't due to the Darwinian evolution that is military combat and the taking of casualties.

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
Impossibly disputable. Particularly since Sidious is a SITH, not a Jedi, and who recieved no Jedi force training whatsoever. Particularly since we only really KNOW who is a powerhouse and who isn't due to the Darwinian evolution that is military combat and the taking of casualties.

Yoda too was described as "the most powerful foe the darkness had ever known" although he hasn't fought a single Sith up until his encounter with Sidious.

"So how did Sidious become that strong then? I know there is not much known about his youth but I doubt he is a battle-hardened warrior that slew countless of Jedi; yet he is the strongest Sith of all time."

A combination of being unbelievably strong in the force and being trained by Darth Plagueis- certainly a very strong Sith lord who could manipulate the Force on a very fundamental level down to the Midi-Chlorians in life- for decades.

"Yoda too was described as "the most powerful foe the darkness had ever known""

Again, a fluke of being unbelievably powerful and having centuries to accumulate knowledge.

"although he hasn't fought a single Sith up until his encounter with Sidious."

False. He did, including Dooku, Ventress, and a few Sith mooks.

Those two are about as great an outlier as you can get. Certainly they were head over heels above absolutely everything and everybody else for their times if not in the entire mythos.

Plus, Yoda fought other Dark Siders besides the Sith - including the Witches of Dathomir and Dark Jedi.

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
A combination of being unbelievably strong in the force and being trained by Darth Plagueis- certainly a very strong Sith lord who could manipulate the Force on a very fundamental level down to the Midi-Chlorians in life- for decades.

Those two are about as great an outlier as you can get. Certainly they were head over heels above absolutely everything and everybody else for their times if not in the entire mythos.

So all in all you have the greatest lightsider and darksider respectively living during the PT with two other characters giving them a run for their money, and Lucas saying it was "the Golden Age of the Jedi" and yet you claim that the KOTOR Jedi are better?

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
So all in all you have the greatest lightsider and darksider respectively living during the PT with two other characters giving them a run for their money, and Lucas saying it was "the Golden Age of the Jedi" and yet you claim that the KOTOR Jedi are better?

Rationally then, the average Jedi of the KOTOR period should have a stronger connection to the Force and be more powerful than the Jedi of the PT era.

Originally posted by Enyalus
You also have multiple quotes and evidence saying that 200 years prior to the PT-era the Jedi/light side connection to the Force was diminishing, and it continued to diminish until the Jedi Purge.

Rationally then, the average Jedi of the KOTOR period should have a stronger connection to the Force and be more powerful than the Jedi of the PT era.

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
I'd like to see those quotes because it seems rather strage that you have some continuously diminishing connections with the Jedi and at the same time have guys like Dooku or Mace, or heck, the Jedi council for that matter flat out refuting that.

Courtesy of Gideon:

In Attack of the Clones, Jedi Master Mace Windu mentions to Grand Master Yoda that the Jedi should “inform the Senate that [the Jedi’s] ability to use the Force has diminished,” with the rise of the dark side of the Force. As the official databank’s entry for Mace Windu notes: “Something was clouding the future, and the order’s very connection to the Force was weakening. That a Sith Lord existed in the galaxy was not in doubt, but could this shadowy villain really bring this much imbalance to the Force?”
The answer is quite simply a resonant “yes.” As per George Lucas, the Sith, specifically Palpatine were the imbalance to the Force. Labyrinth of Evil notes that “for two hundred years prior to the coming of Darth Sidious, the power of the dark side had been gaining strength, and yet the Jedi had made only minimal efforts to thwart it.” The same source notes that “the Battle of Naboo had revealed that the Sith were back in the open, and that a Sith Lord was at work somewhere. The Sith Lord: the one born with the power needed to take the final step.” In addition, the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia notes in the entry concerning the Jedi Knights that “the nature of the Force was considered to be a constant, but this belief changed some 200 years before the Battle of Yavin, when Jedi Masters began to find that their connection to the Force had become nebulous or darkened."

And the Jedi High Council wasn't all that powerful. I mean, you had members like Coleman Trebor (the dude who failed epically at Geonosis and was shot all to hell by Jango) and Jocasta Nu (20 years prior to TPM).

Originally posted by DrunknClockwork
I'd like to see those quotes because it seems rather strage that you have some continuously diminishing connections with the Jedi and at the same time have guys like Dooku or Mace, or heck, the Jedi council for that matter flat out refuting that.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
I think the question is (in ares' mind at least); what exactly does "golden age" mean?

I doubt it means the most powerful in combat as Yoda himself says, "War does not make one great."

Originally posted by Alistair
The Jedi's of both era's are trained for combat, one era simply had more time to further refine their combat training as opposed to another who was constantly fighting.

The Jedi of the PT era however serve as peacekeepers and diplomats. "We are keepers of the peace, not soldiers." And the Niman disaster shows this. During the PT era it was the "standard in lightsaber training". It allowed the Jedi to focus less on saber combat "because it is less intensive in its demands than other disciplines, allowing Jedi to spend more time developing their skills in perception, political strategy, and negotiation." Yet during the battle of Geonisis most of the Niman users were killed. Ultimately this makes sense. The Jedi gave up their military aspects following due to the Ruusan Reformation and since there were 1000 years of peace that they focus more on maintaning it rather than battle.

do you know where most of the quotes came from regarding Niman? Its ROT, which is not the PT era.

Originally posted by truejedi
do you know where most of the quotes came from regarding Niman? Its ROT, which is not the PT era.

Originally posted by truejedi
do you know where most of the quotes came from regarding Niman? Its ROT, which is not the PT era.

Originally posted by Enyalus
You also have multiple quotes and evidence saying that 200 years prior to the PT-era the Jedi/light side connection to the Force was diminishing, and it continued to diminish until the Jedi Purge.

Rationally then, the average Jedi of the KOTOR period should have a stronger connection to the Force and be more powerful than the Jedi of the PT era.

But this is due to the increasing presence of the darkside casting a shroud over the lightside!! In the Old Republic times, the darkside was even more of a presence than in the PT era (as logic would seem to point out), therefore their (Old Republic Jedi) ability to use the force probably wasn't any higher.

Also, saying that the ability to use the force was diminishing doesn't mean much unless we have a relative comparison to use. In this case, the Sith have been a non-factor for an extremely long time.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
But this is due to the increasing presence of the darkside casting a shroud over the lightside!! In the Old Republic times, the darkside was even more of a presence than in the PT era (as logic would seem to point out), therefore their (Old Republic Jedi) ability to use the force probably wasn't any higher.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Also, saying that the ability to use the force was diminishing doesn't mean much unless we have a relative comparison to use. In this case, the Sith have been a non-factor for an extremely long time.

honestly, we have:

the "golden age of the jedi" and that the "most powerful foe the darkness had ever known" and "the most dangerous Sith apprentice"(being killed by a jedi) and the "most powerful Sith Lord"(being defeated by one Jedi and stalemated by another) and "some of the most dangerous swordsbeings the order had ever produced" about Saesee Tinn, Kit Fisto and Agen Kolar.

These are measures that compare this era to other eras. For the KOTOR era, we don't have similar comparisons in regard to the PT era. If you want to ignore all of the above and say " Lolz PT Jedi were WEAK", then honestly, more power to you, but please don't try to pass it off as unmitigated fact.

We follow cannonicity in this forum, not speculation.

Originally posted by Enyalus
And the Jedi High Council wasn't all that powerful. I mean, you had members like Coleman Trebor (the dude who failed epically at Geonosis and was shot all to hell by Jango) and Jocasta Nu (20 years prior to TPM).

Originally posted by ares834
Really?
Mace Windu says in AOTC " I think it is time to inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished. "

Originally posted by Enyalus

No, the increasing darkness over the past 200 years was the imbalance in the Force which Anakin was born to stop. Prior to that time we can assume with confidence that there was no imbalance, otherwise Anakin was hardly necessary.

DrunknClockwork: "So having great potential and training under a strong master was enough to become the greatest Sith ever?"

While we do not know the full extent of Sidious' life and do not know about what if any battles he engaged in prior to his coup, I would argue that yes, somebody of Sidious' enormous potential coupled with several times the usual training period (several DECADES) at the hands of one of the most powerful Sith in the mythos coupled with his own native cunning and intelligence could indeed do that. Of course, that is not because combat is useless but because Sidious is Sidious. Just as some people barely need to study anything and ace tests while others must work their rearrs off for D's, Sidious was just that powerful. Of course, needless to say what applies to Sidious hardly applies to most others.

"I doubt any of those battles (except maybe the ones with Dooku) had any bearing on his status of the best lightsider ever."

Perhaps, but we don't know all of Yoda's story. And even if the above listed were ALL he killed, he has had literally CENTURIES to study these things. Most do not have that luxury. Again, what applies to Yoda might not apply to anybody else.

"Yet Mace beat Sidious"

Rather disputable. He certainlly got the upper hand, likely on his own, but Sidious is vastly more dangerous than that and what reason do we have at all to believe he simply wouldn't have killed Mace anyway had he not sensed Anakin coming and thus figured it would be a nice way for his future apprentace to "make his bones?"

"and yet Dooku went toe-to-toe with Yoda."

Mainly because Dooku was aware and alert, Yoda was somewhat distraced by the need to protect OW and AS, and perhaps most importantly of all, Dooku KNEW Yoda. The latter was his master after all.

"So all in all you have the greatest lightsider and darksider respectively living during the PT with two other characters giving them a run for their money,"

Again, Mace wont he saber duel arguably, and Dooku held the line, but the former would likely have been killed had Sidious not figured it would be more effective for Anakin to do so, and Dooku knew Yoda's style.

"and Lucas saying it was "the Golden Age of the Jedi""

Again, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? Lucas never said. And it almost certainly wasn't regarding their combat acumen or their size, as Geonosis showed.

"and yet you claim that the KOTOR Jedi are better?"

On average? Certainly. When members of the various Jedi Councils are killed off in the bushelload by non-Jedi non-Force sensitives without anti-Jedi training and who are occasionally the highly disfunctional Battle droids, one does NOT get a sterling impression of their combat record. And this is before we talk about the old lore and the other issues.

Jinsoku Takai:

"But this is due to the increasing presence of the darkside casting a shroud over the lightside!!"

True. The main question is WHAT is responsible for that, which in the Prequel trilogy we certainly know is Sidious and his mechanations.

"In the Old Republic times, the darkside was even more of a presence than in the PT era (as logic would seem to point out),"

Impossibly disputable, particularly since while the Sith were a far more open presence in the Old Republic, the Prequels have Sidious, who is easily one of the strongest if not THE strongest character in the mythos, and who may well have been stronger than the Malak/Revan/True Sith combo put together. Circumstancial evidence for this shows that while the KOTOR Jedi did indeed get their ability to percieve through the force clouded, it mainly centered around fairly distant things, such as the Star Forge and the identity of those who had been killing them off after the war. In contrast, the Prequel Jedi did not detect someone who is likely the most powerful Dark Lord in history when he was living on the same planet with their high council and who often times was standing RIGHT in front of them. That is more than anything a fair sight more severe a gap.

"therefore their (Old Republic Jedi) ability to use the force probably wasn't any higher."

Perhaps, but extremely unlikely. The Jedi were able to see things as far into the future as Dark tidings out on the Outer Rim that basically led to their embargoing the Jedi from participating in the war agains the Mandalorians, whereas again the Jedi High Council on Coruscant didn't recognize THE Lord of Sith Lords- no, not in a distant future a year or more off, but right THEN- standing in the same room as them, and if they did it must have raised the Galaxy's only Quark-sized Red Flag because nobody either did anything about or even suspected Sidious's true role.

And it isn't just CAPABILITY to use the Force that is the subject of this debate but also HOW you use it. And by all accounts the KOTOR Jedi were far more martially open than the Prequelites were.

"Also, saying that the ability to use the force was diminishing doesn't mean much unless we have a relative comparison to use."

Perhaps, but we can cobble together rough estimates and educated guesses.

"In this case, the Sith have been a non-factor for an extremely long time."

When?

DC:

"The PT council would absolutely annihilate every other Jedi council (save for the NJO council), it's not even funny and I don't see how mentioning their weakest links has any relevance here because everyone has them."

And HOW do you know this? These are guys who routinely get picked off by DROIDS for crying out loud. From what we have seen of the PT council, they were routinely taken aback by even fairly minor threats like Xanatos in the books and Darth Maul. They clearly have fairly little grasp of fighting enemy Jedi (as Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon themselves noted), and they have lost literally centuries of Jedi and Sith lore in between KOTOR and the PT.

"the "golden age of the jedi""

What DOES that mean and do we have ANY reason WHATSOEVER to believe it applies to their combat proficiency against other Jedi?

"and that the "most powerful foe the darkness had ever known""

Which is quite probable for the time. Conceded.

"and "the most dangerous Sith apprentice"(being killed by a jedi)"

Almost certainly not so. Where the free did you get that quote and who is it referring to?

"and the "most powerful Sith Lord"(being defeated by one Jedi and stalemated by another)"

Again, who said that and as I mentioned before, while Mace won the saber duel, do you REALLY think Sidious was hopeless?

" and "some of the most dangerous swordsbeings the order had ever produced" about Saesee Tinn, Kit Fisto and Agen Kolar."

Again, who said that, and may I point out that each generation always has those who rise above the norm? And may I point to the fact that a great deal of their colleagues were butchered by effing DROIDS- and not the advanced, thinking ones either, but the tripey discount ones that malfunction at virtually every step of the way-? What does THAT say about the average competence of the PT Jedi Order?

"These are measures that compare this era to other eras. For the KOTOR era, we don't have similar comparisons in regard to the PT era. If you want to ignore all of the above and say " Lolz PT Jedi were WEAK", then honestly, more power to you, but please don't try to pass it off as unmitigated fact."

Except by any reasonable definition it certainly is. Or did you forget little things like the Jedi getting mown down by common grunts in great numbers, most of whom had no specialized training whatsoever? And the fact that they were openly unprepared for war? And that by any definition they HAD lost vast amounts of knowledge from things like Ossus, the bombardment of Dantooine, and the death of so many Jedi in the KOTOR era (who, might I add, were almost always killed by actual Dark Jedi or by specially trained commandos formed EXPLICITLY to take on Jedi)?

"We follow cannonicity in this forum, not speculation."

Then why do you ignore CANON events like the destruction of Ossus and the dismal preformance of the PT order in combat?

Ok, I forgot to address the last part of that piece to truejedi. My apologies.