Originally posted by kodiak430This scene from the RotS novelization:
yeah, he only throws him out the window, which is so different 😉
Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish. His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad."
Is much different than this:
the Revenge of the Sith screenplay depicts Palpatine overpowering Windu and hurling him across the office with telekinesis
Galan007
Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish. His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut.
According to the novelization, then, a moment's distraction was enough for Palpatine to nearly kill him. Where was the almighty Vaapad then?
Galan007
Only a desperate Force-push
Desperate? Hardly the musings of a man who is 'pwning' his enemy, nor hardly the state of mind with one who possesses an invincible, infallible form/state-of-mind that will enable him to triumph over any foe!!1!
Galan007
Is much different than this:
Is it not? One doesn't have to be at one's full strength (or attention) to be overpowered, and Windu was nearly hurled out of the office. Of course the correct expression I used was "similar," so....
Revenge of the Sith screenplay
Jedi Master MACE WINDU and the Sith Lord fight their way down the hallway and into the main office area. PALPATINE is able to use the Force to slam MACE against the wall, but he recovers before the Chancellor can cut him down.
Where was Vaapad then?
Originally posted by GideonMace was nearly force pushed out of the hole he just made (an effort which Mace swiftly countered), while he was distracted.
According to the novelization, then, a moment's distraction was enough for Palpatine to nearly kill him. Where was the almighty Vaapad then?
Originally posted by GideonYou certainly do like to cherry pick. Sidious attacked Mace while he was distracted and was still unable to harm him. Bottom line.
Desperate? Hardly the musings of a man who is 'pwning' his enemy, nor hardly the state of mind with one who possesses an invincible, infallible form/state-of-mind that will enable him to triumph over any foe!!1!
Originally posted by GideonWindu was in no way/shape/form 'overpowered' in the excerpt I posted. He was momentarily distracted, and in that moment Palpatine tried to push him out of the hole he'd just made... But to no avail.
Is it not? One doesn't have to be at one's full strength (or attention) to be overpowered, and Windu was nearly hurled out of the office. Of course the correct expression I used was "similar," so....
Why are you making more out of this then need be?
Originally posted by GideonThis screenplay quote you're clinging to did not happen in the film, or in the novel. Why are you trying to use it as evidence?
Where was Vaapad then?
Originally posted by kodiak430You mean after he is left armless by Anakin's b*tch move?
man i need to read that book again. and galan, mace IS thrown out the window at the end of the fight...
Galan007
Mace was nearly force pushed out of the hole he just made (an effort which Mace swiftly countered), while he was distracted.
And if Vaapad is apparently a catch-all power that means Mace can open a can of whuppass on every dark side Force user evar!!1! then that wouldn't have happened, now would it?
007
You certainly do like to cherry pick. Sidious attacked Mace while he was distracted and was still unable to harm him. Bottom line.
I'm not the one trying to cherrypick; you're the one who's given two instances from two canon sources that shows that Vaapad still isn't enough to guarantee Mace a victory against Palpatine, and that there were ways in which Palpatine could have clearly won, hence the "desperate" line.
007
Windu was in no way/shape/form 'overpowered' in the excerpt I posted. He was momentarily distracted, and in that moment Palpatine tried to push him out of the hole he'd just made... But to no avail.
Sure he was, hence his "desperation." Stover's (canon) words, not mine.
007
Why are you making more out of this then need be?This screenplay quote you're clinging to did not happen in the film, or in the novel. Why are you trying to use it as evidence?
Because as per Stover's own words, what was in the novelization was there because George Lucas personally wanted it there. He line-edited the whole thing. So, logically, Lucas wanted to show that Vaapad doesn't make Windu and Vaapad some sort of deus ex machina that guarantees him a victory against every dark sider.
Originally posted by GideonComments like these are the only time your youth shines through. Let's keep the snide comments to a minimum, we're both adults here. 🙂
And if Vaapad is apparently a catch-all power that means Mace can open a can of whuppass on every dark side Force user evar!!1! then that wouldn't have happened, now would it?
Anyhow, please post the quote where I said that Mace can defeat 'any dark side user, ever'... Rhetorical, I can assure you I've never said such. Furthermore, Palpatine almost pushing a distracted Mace out of a window is in no way a low feat for Mace. That is a fact you cannot dodge, I'm afraid.
Originally posted by GideonVaapad still wasn't enough to guarantee a victory for Mace? You are aware that Vaapad was pretty much the main reason Mace beat Palpatine, right?
I'm not the one trying to cherrypick; you're the one who's given two instances from two canon sources that shows that Vaapad still isn't enough to guarantee Mace a victory against Palpatine, and that there were ways in which Palpatine could have clearly won, hence the "desperate" line.
It could also be argued that Mace wasn't actively employing Vaapad in that particular scene, hence the line: "he bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad."
Originally posted by GideonI don't follow this logic at all. if GL really wanted these facts to be known, he would have included them in either the film or the novel... But he didn't. So yeah...
Because as per Stover's own words, what was in the novelization was there because George Lucas personally wanted it there. He line-edited the whole thing. So, logically, Lucas wanted to show that Vaapad doesn't make Windu and Vaapad some sort of deus ex machina that guarantees him a victory against every dark sider.
Spoiler:
I'm baiting you, which is working, given your increased number of errors and mistakes.
007
Furthermore, Palpatine almost pushing a distracted Mace out of a window is in no way a low feat for Mace. That is a fact you cannot dodge, I'm afraid.
lulwut
You're not getting it, James. There is an obstruction between your brain and THE TRUTH. The reality isn't that Windu lost or Palpatine won, but that Vaapad alone is not enough to guarantee Windu a victory against Palpatine, like some sort of magic catch-all trick that the Emperor is just helpless against. This is relevant because we're discussing how Vaapad works against other dark siders. If Vaapad guaranteed that Windu would have pwned Palpatine, then he wouldn't have nearly been blown out the fvcking window, which is my point.
He still could have died (he did) and he still could have lost the duel. Vaapad's impressive, but in no way did it mean the Emperor was doomed from the start.
007
Vaapad still wasn't enough to guarantee a victory for Mace? You are aware that Vaapad was pretty much the main reason Mace beat Palpatine, right?
haermm
Thanks to the metaphysical obstruction between your brain and reality, my words are getting lost. I will now use my superconducting loop to clear this obstacle so that my words will penetrate your very soul.
...
There. Moving on, my point is that Vaapad isn't, as you apparently now admit, enough to guarantee Mace an automatic victory against a dark sider. The form is fallible; it can be defeated, as demonstrated when even Windu 'cut loose', he still didn't annihilate Sidious and could have died.
007
It could also be argued that Mace wasn't actively employing Vaapad in that particular scene, hence the line: "he bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad."
Or, as it appears to those of us without truth obstructions in our brains, it means that Windu wasn't actively employing Vaapad because he was nearly thrown out of a fvcking window and nearly shat (yes, shat, not shit) his snug Jedi robes.
Spoiler:
I'm teasing you, you understand?
Originally posted by GideonThere. Moving on, my point is that Vaapad isn't, as you apparently now admit, enough to guarantee Mace an [b]automatic
victory against a dark sider. The form is fallible; it can be defeated, as demonstrated when even Windu 'cut loose', he still didn't annihilate Sidious and could have died.[/B]
That's a strawman.
Originally posted by GideonMace disengaged from the duel at hand, thus disengaging from Vaapad (as evident from the last sentence of the excerpt I posted) -- he then jumped over to the window and broke it -- Palps tried to force push Mace out of that window while he [Mace] was distracted, and not concentrating on the duel -- Mace force pushes himself the other direction to counter this attempt -- Mace then reenters Vaapad-mode again and proceeds to beat Sidious shortly thereafter.
If Vaapad guaranteed that Windu would have pwned Palpatine, then he wouldn't have nearly been blown out the fvcking window, which is my point.
You're trying to make that instance a low showing for Vaapad, when it clearly isn't.
Originally posted by GideonThe form was 'fallible' when (a) it's user didn't appear to be actively employing it, and (b) when he was cheap-shotted while distracted from the duel at hand.
There. Moving on, my point is that Vaapad isn't, as you apparently now admit, enough to guarantee Mace an [b]automatic victory against a dark sider. The form is fallible; it can be defeated, as demonstrated when even Windu 'cut loose', he still didn't annihilate Sidious and could have died. [/B]
But when Mace was actively dueling Sidious, Vaapad it did it's job very well.
Originally posted by GideonI know now. Before I just thought you were trying to be an arrogant little prick. 😛Spoiler:
I'm teasing you, you understand?
Blax
That doesn't correlate to what you're accusing his stance of being in any way, shape, or form. Stating that Galen doesn't get an auto-win due to his superior raw force prowess does not translate into "Mace can beat any dark sider because of Vapaad".
wtf
Galen said that Marek won't win through his superior Force powers because of Vaapad; what I'm doing here is showing that Vaapad does not give Windu an automatic victory.
But if you want, we can pretend that what I said has absolutely nothing to do with it.
007
Mace disengaged from the duel at hand, thus disengaging from Vaapad (as evident from the last sentence of the excerpt I posted)
Uh, no. No. No, I have the novelization right in front of me, and nothing says that disengaging from Palpatine's blade is what took Windu out of Vaapad. It's far more likely that what did that was when he was nearly thrown out the window and had to desperately alter his trajectory.
007
You're trying to make that instance a low showing for Vaapad, when it clearly isn't.
Who said it was a low showing? I'm just using it as evidence that it certainly doesn't give Windu an automatic victory here.
007
The form was 'fallible' when (a) it's user didn't appear to be actively employing it, and (b) when he cheap-shotted while distracted from the duel at hand.But when Mace was actively dueling Sidious, Vaapad it did it's job very well.
wut?
You're missing the point, James: no one's disputing that Vaapad enabled Windu to defeat Palpatine. What is being said is that Windu doesn't get an auto-win against dark siders (including Palpatine) because of Vaapad, since -- according to the novelization itself -- Vaapad was only enough to stalemate Palpatine.
Originally posted by GideonI never said that Vaapad gives Mace an auto-win. The only reason I brought up the Mace/Sidious battle in the first place is because very few seemed to understand/recognize the fact that [dark Jedi] Galen having superior force powers doesn't mean much at all against Vaapad... Mace's battle with (and defeat of) the far more force-powerful Sidious is a perfect example of that.
What is being said is that Windu doesn't get an auto-win against dark siders (including Palpatine) because of Vaapad
Originally posted by GideonWhich is why I have said several times before, that Vaapad made Mace = Sidious. Vaapad + Shatterpoint made Mace > Sidious. Look it up if you want.
according to the novelization itself -- Vaapad was only enough to stalemate Palpatine.