Rots Obi-Wan and Mace Windu vs. Rots Vader and dark jedi Galen Marek

Started by Galan00711 pages

Originally posted by ares834
WRONG!!!
Actually, he/they aren't wrong at all. Kodiak said that the novel mentioned Palpatine holding back against Mace... And it doesn't.

As for the audio commentary quote you posted, here's the whole thing:

Originally posted by George Lucas
This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try and destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber... But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something I added later

So while GL acknowledges that Palpatine pretended to lose his powers at the end, he also acknowledges Mace legitimately "overpowering" him. So yeah...

Originally posted by Galan007
Actually, he/they aren't wrong at all. Kodiak said that the novel mentioned of holding back against Mace... And it doesn't.

But Kodiak also said:

Even in the movie, hes acting all weak and everything, and as soon as anakin cuts windus hand off, he gets a smirk on his face and blasts him with force lightning

Originally posted by Galan007
So while GL acknowledges the fact that Palpatine pretended to lose his powers at the end, he also gave credit to Mace legitimately "overpowering" Palps. So yeah...

No one said anything about Mace not winning the saber portion of the duel. Kodiak was mentioning that Palpatine was faking and he was right.

^ All things considered, Sidious faking being weak doesn't really matter where the battle is concerned. Per GL, Mace had already "overpowered" Sidious, and rendered his force lightning ineffectual. What else was there for him to do beside plea to Anakin for help?

Vaapad would at least balance out most of the Force power differential between them. What couldn't be balanced out is Mace's unbelievably large edge in saber skills. We're talking about probably the second best duelist in the entire PT saga, against a Dark Jedi Galen who struggled in a saber contest against both Kota and Ti....

The Force contest would be close because of Vaapad dampening that edge for Galen. The saber contest is no contest because of Mace's overwhelming skill and Shatterpoint ability.

The "overpowered" part clearly only refers to the lightsaber portion of the duel.

Originally posted by ares834
The "overpowered" part clearly only refers to the lightsaber portion of the duel.

The "overpowered" part clearly refers to their entire duel up until Sidious uses his Force Lightning (that's the "powers" part). By then, Sidious was already on his ass.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Vaapad would at least balance out most of the Force power differential between them. What couldn't be balanced out is Mace's unbelievably large edge in saber skills. We're talking about probably the second best duelist in the entire PT saga, against a Dark Jedi Galen who struggled in a saber contest against both Kota and Ti....

The Force contest would be close because of Vaapad dampening that edge for Galen. The saber contest is no contest because of Mace's overwhelming skill and Shatterpoint ability.

*e-hug*

Originally posted by ares834
The "overpowered" part clearly only refers to the lightsaber portion of the duel.
'Overpowered' is referring to everything that happened up until Sidious was on the ground using his FL. But it still cannot be argued that Mace did in fact render his lightning completely ineffectual.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ All things considered, Sidious faking being weak doesn't really matter where the battle is concerned. Per GL, Mace had already "overpowered" Sidious, and rendered his force lightning ineffectual. What else was there for him to do beside plea to Anakin for help?
Hold up... What? When did Windu render Palpatine's lightning ineffectual? I remember Windu struggling to contain the lightning and almost being overpowered by it. And he probably would have been overpowered by it had Palpatine not stopped the attack.

Windu BARELY won the saber duel after losing three of his partners to Palpatine's blade, and being forced on the defensive for the majority of the duel. Palpatine didn't even use his offensive force powers until he lost the duel and had no other alternative. Who is to say that every dark side user will do the same?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Hold up... What? When did Windu render Palpatine's lightning ineffectual? I remember Windu struggling to contain the lightning and almost being overpowered by it. And he probably would have been overpowered by it had Palpatine not stopped the attack.
Ineffectual in that the lightning most certainly did not harm Mace. Sure it was a struggle for him to block it, but he still blocked it nonetheless. And though Palpatine may not have been powerless at the end of the battle, it was certainly strenuous for him to keep maintaining the lightning while it was simultaneously getting shoved back down his throat... From the same RotS audio commentary: "These close up shots where Palpatine is getting the force lightning reflected back and he’s getting zapped, and the strain of all this exertion is what’s transforming him into the Emperor that we see later in Return of the Jedi..."

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Windu BARELY won the saber duel after losing three of his partners to Palpatine's blade, and being forced on the defensive for the majority of the duel. Palpatine didn't even use his offensive force powers until he lost the duel and had no other alternative. Who is to say that every dark side user will do the same?
No one said Mace beat Palpatine effortlessly, but he still beat him.

As for Palpatine not using offensive force powers until the end; all I can say is that he simply didn't have the chance to -- Mace was on him like white on rice the entire time. If using offensive force powers against Mace in the midst of battle would've been an option, I'm sure Palps would have done so (he certainly had no problem using them vs. Yoda.)

Originally posted by Galan007
Ineffectual in that the lightning most certainly did not harm Mace. Sure it was a struggle for him to block it, but he still blocked it nonetheless.

True. But had Palpatine countinued Mace would have been fried. The RotS novel says that "he had no strength left to fight against his own blade" and immediately before Sidious let up "Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone."

Originally posted by ares834
True. But had Palpatine countinued Mace would have been fried. The RotS novel says that "he had no strength left to fight against his own blade" and immediately before Sidious let up "Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone."

Yet, he still continued to block even though he supposedly had no strength left. There's no proof that Mace would have been fried before Palpatine himself if Sidious had kept it up. Recall, it was Palpatine who was taking the damage - not Mace.

Originally posted by ares834
True. But had Palpatine countinued Mace would have been fried. The RotS novel says that "he had no strength left to fight against his own blade" and immediately before Sidious let up "Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone."

Speculation and nothing more. What we do know for a fact is that Mace outlasted Sids in that portion of the fight. Sids was clearly feeling the effects of it and this is apparent by his face melting off. So.. he was feeling it, struggling (just as Mace was), he then comments that he is too weak to continue and stops. This is what we know for facts.. what you're purposing is speculation to justify Sids losing the battle (both saber and force)

Originally posted by Enyalus
Yet, he still continued to block even though he supposedly had no strength left. There's no proof that Mace would have been fried before Palpatine himself if Sidious had kept it up. Recall, it was Palpatine who was taking the damage - not Mace.

Notice what it says. "he had no strength left to fight against his own blade." Sure he managed to countinue blocking Sidious's lightning but now his lightsaber began to be pushed back into his face by the force of the lightning. And as my other quote explains the blade was so close that Mace "was choking on ozone". And this was right before Palpatine pretended to be weak.

Originally posted by ares834
Notice what it says. "he had no strength left to fight against his own blade." Sure he managed to countinue blocking Sidious's lightning but now his lightsaber began to be pushed back into his face by the force of the lightning. And as my other quote explains the blade was so close that Mace "was choking on ozone". And this was right before Palpatine pretended to be weak.

And yet, Mace kept it up. Palpatine gave out. The end.

Originally posted by Enyalus
And yet, Mace kept it up. Palpatine gave out. The end.

Mace kept what up? Blocking Palpatine's lightning... Yeah he did. But what he did not keep up was stopping his lightsaber from bending into his face as both my quotes show. He had no strength left to fight against his blade so it began to bend up in his face. Had Palpatine countinued his storm of lightning he would have killed Mace.

Originally posted by ares834
Mace kept what up? Blocking Palpatine's lightning... Yeah he did. But what he did not keep up was stopping his lightsaber from bending into his face as both my quotes show. He had no strength left to fight against his blade so it began to bend up in his face. Had Palpatine countinued his storm of lightning he would have killed Mace.

You conveniently leave out the entire context of those quotes of yours. It goes like this:

"Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin-! Please, Anaaahhh-"

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-"

"Ahhh-" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair.

The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge.

"I ... can't. I give up. I ... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender."

Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease-"

Sidious' own lightning was already killing himself by the time Mace's blade became unsteady. And despite the author noting it, he has Mace continue to stand there and deflect lightning for another sentence of Palpatine's and then some, until Palpatine fires a final gout and shuts things down. How much longer do you really think Palpatine could continue to keep eating his own lightning? Because clearly, Mace could have continued reflecting it...as the novel makes clear.

-Mace "overpowered" Sidious.
-Sidious was being deformed by the tremendous 'strain and exertion' caused from his lightning being reflected back at him.
-Sidious was the only one harmed by the lightning.
-Sidious gave out before Mace.

Stop trying to justify things in Sidious' favor. It's getting old.

Originally posted by Galan007
-Sidious was being deformed by the tremendous 'strain and exertion' caused from his lightning being reflected back at him.

👆 Exactly. Sidious' own lightning was burning away the muscles in his face, deforming the bones in his skull and melting the molecular structure of his face in general. It was killing him. There's no practical reason to assume that Sidious could have kept up his barrage for longer than Mace could keep up deflecting it.

Originally posted by Enyalus
You conveniently leave out the entire context of those quotes of yours. It goes like this:

"Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin-! Please, Anaaahhh-"

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-"

"Ahhh-" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair.

The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge.

"I ... can't. I give up. I ... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender."

Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease-"

Sidious' own lightning was already killing himself by the time Mace's blade became unsteady.


Ok... We all saw the movie and know Palpatine was taking a full blast to his face. Yet there is nothing to suggest that he would have been killed in the very near future if he countined pouring it out. Heck Galan007 posted a quote by GL that shows the lightning was not what changed his face but the effort to keep the lightning flowing.
And despite the author noting it, he has Mace continue to stand there and deflect lightning for another sentence of Palpatine's and then some, until Palpatine fires a final gout and shuts things down. How much longer do you really think Palpatine could continue to keep eating his own lightning?

Except no where does Stover say Mace can't countine to reflect it. What he says is Mace can no longer fight against his blade. Which he clearly can't as at the end of the passage it is very near his face.
Because clearly, Mace could have continued reflecting it...as the novel makes clear.

But he could not keep his own lightsaber from getting pushed into his face.

It really is... I mean honestly, are these things that hard to comprehend. Sids lost the saber battle, and sids also gave out first in the force battle. This happening doesn't change the fact that he's one of the strongest sith lords ever, if not the strongest ever. Thus you can sleep better at night knowing your boy toy is still one strong mother F'er