Ganondorf(tp) vs. Hylden Lord(BO2)

Started by Burning thought21 pages

They can possess while sealed but they cannot take physical form until the foundations are broken enough. Preparing what exactly? its not a spell and they possess from one person to another, from Turel, to Mortanius. The Lord went from Mortanius as soon as he died, to Janos. There was as little as a few seconds between each possession. Possession takes no time.

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/darkentity.php

However, despite outward appearances, Kain hadn't destroyed it. As the later games would show, he had only destroyed the remains of Mortanius' body, which had housed the Dark Entity's soul. The Dark Entity found another host...

And here is when Janos is possessed:

YouTube video

4:07+

As soon as the pillars break which is around the time Kain refuses the sacrifce after killing Hashigik, the hylden lord possesses Janos.

"Both freedom and vengeance in a single stroke", to clear this up for you. Freedom form the demon realm, and vengenace on Janos, the last of the ancient race who imprisoned him. Emphasis on a "single stroke"

Meh, I'll let it pass.

Its irrelevant anyway, I think Quanchi has disallowed possession.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Slight correction and yes mist is an incredible form for avoiding solid harm but if you have to transform into a mist and enter someone through it its a lot less useful than simply possessing them instantly without any contact.

Well, really, Ganon doesn't mist. When he is in that form, he is intangible, as seen when he goes straight through Midna's body. If he was mist, then he would have to go around, not through, because he would not be truly intangible.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. You clearly either have never played it, or have suffered severe blunt trauma forcing you to forget all that occurred during your experience. 🙂

2. And none of that means that Bo is as strong as Link is or sufficiently strong enough to throw Dangoro. 🙂 Oh, and I notice how you ignored my question, concession accepted. 🙂

3. True, but I am able to best you by virtue of far superior logical abilities. 🙂

4. Well thank you for proving my point my good sir! I could not best a sumo wrestler with the added weight to rival theirs because I am not as strong nor as fast (Sumos are much faster than most think, for the record) as they are (Also, lack of sumo skill and stuff). So... Why is Link then able to overpower Goron's and best them? Why, clearly because he is STRONG enough to do so! Do not argue the physics with me, argue with a physicist if you believe it is wrong, the physics is VERY sound, there is nothing wrong with it. 🙂

5. Speed feats for Kain please, I am BEGGING you. Also, though Kain has shown to be stronger than a normal human, he is not as physically powerful as Link.

1. I played it unlike yourself and blood omen 2. Your insults are about as effective as your debating. Not so much.

2.Link wasn't insanely strong or else he wouldn't have needed the training and the boots. Easy to comprehend but then there's you.

3.You're ignorant and are arguing just to argue but I am glad you admit to ignorance.

4.If Link were strong enough he wouldn't need the weight the boots give him but in real life you'd get tossed around and just fall down in the boots. Use some common sense and come out of this hyrule fantasy world you live in.

5.I think the reason most characters don't get beheaded is their skill levels and comparable strength throughout these games. People get beheaded when standing there and Kain could easily tear Link's heart out whereas we have never ever seen tp Link do anything great strength wise without the use of gear.

Let him put on the boots because it kills his mobility. Laughs.

Originally posted by MadMel
Kain survived his heart being ripped out because he was teleported to the demon realm, where everyone's immortal. Fate intervened to keep the scion of balance alive. It has nothing to do with his own durability.
No, that's incorrect he survived after leaving the realm and survived because he's the scion of balance. Amy Hennig confirmed this. It's a fact, sport.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Denial will nor help you. I'm talking about the abilities of the Triforce of Power in general, not Ganondorf. If one version of Ganondorf can use the Triforce of Power to do something, all of them can.

Open your eyes, please. 4 revivals, no less.

Talking to Link with a plot device in his chest? Chained by the Sages while he didn't have any power?

Notice that I said he wasn't helpless whenever he had the Triforce of Power. Both times you listed he didn't have the Triforce of Power.

Stabbed by a plot device that prevent him from using his power, why can't you understamd this? Getting reduced to particles > getting stabbed, unless it's the Master Sword. It is so obvious in in the game that you'd have to be intentionally shutting your eyes to miss it. I don't care how much you want Ganondorf to lose, it doesn't change what happens in TP.

You are now intentionally ignoring my posts. If you don't use the Master Sword, he'll revive. Even if you do, he'll revive unless it's actually touching him. I have repeatedly told you that he wasn't trying to kill all the Sages, since they couldn't hurt him. The Sages can't BFR without the plot device mirror, so no, they still wouldn't win.

Link had to kill him 3 times. The Hylden Lord can't replicate that, so he gets crushed.

Do you not see the double standard here? Ganondorf was a normal Gerudo. When he got his powers he crushed them. Ganondorf always comes back, always in the end.

Temple of Time.

Kain is so evil his existence corrupted Nosgoth. Master Sword would annihilate him.

Prove it.

Triforce of Power.

He still had to sacridice himself to wipe the slate clean. He never did, so I guess Nosgoth just ends.

In terms of plot the Master Sword is better.

Slowed down, not stopped. He came back and broke their little BFR mirror. You''re the one that's wrong.

Lol, you really believe this? Both Bowser and Ganondorf are great villains, and both would murder Kain.

I didn't say he did.

Quit asking questions and making ignorant statements about Ganondorf when you don't know all he's done. WW Link was Triforce empowered.

Elder God is absolutely pathetic. He failed at everything. Why does it matter how long he held it when Link was the only one who could take it back?

No, it doesn't. The Master Sword can hurt Ganondorf. That alone makrs above the Reaver.

No, sorry the knowledge of Dorf is different and his history so his mindset is completely different. This isn't a powerset debate.

He was only revived once and it failed once. He was never in any serious danger until he was mortally wounded in Dorf form.

Yes, he talked to Link and was unable to defend himself. When the power came back to him he was still defenseless and open to attack they just sat there and stared at him because they were shocked.

In this thread he can be killed without it being the master sword and was defenseless. He had the power the entire time and it only was accessed when he was in serious danger like I stated. The Hylden Lord would rip him apart as he sat there with that force symbol glowing.

I disagree. Zant cut off his connection when he tried to revive. In a forum matchup the sages wouldn't need the master sword and had him at their mercy. they beat the crap out of him and took him prisoner due to overconfidence and arrogance.

Link beat his other forms and killed him once. You thinking he kept dying is proof you didn't understand the actual scene. Hylden Lord destroys him once and he dies.

Ganondrof always possessed magic it seemed but wasn't as formidable until he got the triforce of power or a connection to it in this game but he still went down while Kain continually comes out on top whereas Dorf always loses.

I already did.

This is tp dorf not ww dorf so keep to the topic at hand.

You don't understand nosgoth he will bring up vampire guardianship back and will save nosgoth. It's a bigger and more serious story with more powerful foes and a much bigger time frame.

No, the soulreaver renders you immortal and can take your soul whereas the master sword is good against evil whereas the soulreaver is equally great against any opponent. The master sword person can still die unlike the reaver bearer.

Zant broke the mirror and Dorf needed him to come back and he was soundly defeated soon as he did come back.
Harmless villains who lose every single game compared to a character who has been in command for thousands of years. Hmmmm.

Dorf was still an idiot and still didn't see his defeat coming proving he didn't learn from his earlier defeat.

eg is still around and was plotting for games and dorf is the ultimate failure and gets waxed, beaten I bet every game he shows up.

eg is so much more powerful and mencaging than dorf anyways.

So your point is the master sword can hurt dorf so it makes it better than the reaver which is outside this game and you have zero proof it can't hurt dorf. It's the ultimate fanboy logic I like this more and it it's more powerful since I do.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, sorry the knowledge of Dorf is different and his history so his mindset is completely different. This isn't a powerset debate.

His mindset does not change his powerset.


He was only revived once and it failed once. He was never in any serious danger until he was mortally wounded in Dorf form.

4 revivals, all after mortal wounds. You cannot change this fact.


Yes, he talked to Link and was unable to defend himself. When the power came back to him he was still defenseless and open to attack they just sat there and stared at him because they were shocked.

He was still up and talking, with the Blade of Evil's bane sticking out of his chest. It was countering his Triforce of Power, so he effectively didn't have it.


In this thread he can be killed without it being the master sword and was defenseless. He had the power the entire time and it only was accessed when he was in serious danger like I stated. The Hylden Lord would rip him apart as he sat there with that force symbol glowing.

He was in serious danger all 5 times, like I stated. Just because you think having your body explode won't kill you doesn't change the fact that it will. The Triforce of Power is passive. The Hylden Lord would have to tear him apart 5 times, and Ganondorf would only have to annihilate the Hylden Lord once. Ganondorf wins the first time with his superior strength, skill, durability, magic, and speed.


I disagree. Zant cut off his connection when he tried to revive. In a forum matchup the sages wouldn't need the master sword and had him at their mercy. they beat the crap out of him and took him prisoner due to overconfidence and arrogance.

He didn't have the Triforce of Power then, Quanchi. Those assassins killed Kain easily due to overconfidence and arrogance.


Link beat his other forms and killed him once. You thinking he kept dying is proof you didn't understand the actual scene. Hylden Lord destroys him once and he dies.

You thinking that Ganondorf having his body destroyed three times and not dying shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Did you close your eyes during the scene or what? Ganondorf wrecks the Hylden Lord with superior strength, skill, durability, magic, and speed.


Ganondrof always possessed magic it seemed but wasn't as formidable until he got the triforce of power or a connection to it in this game but he still went down while Kain continually comes out on top whereas Dorf always loses.

Kain got killed by assassins.


I already did.

Link?


This is tp dorf not ww dorf so keep to the topic at hand.

Triforce of Power.


You don't understand nosgoth he will bring up vampire guardianship back and will save nosgoth. It's a bigger and more serious story with more powerful foes and a much bigger time frame.

And he needs to die to do this. If he doesn't, Nosgoth suffers.


No, the soulreaver renders you immortal and can take your soul whereas the master sword is good against evil whereas the soulreaver is equally great against any opponent. The master sword person can still die unlike the reaver bearer.

You have yet to actually prove any of this. Master Sword is still stronger at what it does.


Zant broke the mirror and Dorf needed him to come back and he was soundly defeated soon as he did come back.

Zant uses Ganondorf's power and follows Ganondorf's orders. Ganondorf crushed Hyrule without even being there.


Harmless villains who lose every single game compared to a character who has been in command for thousands of years. Hmmmm.

Harmless villains win via being more powerful.


Dorf was still an idiot and still didn't see his defeat coming proving he didn't learn from his earlier defeat.

Are you ignoring everything I say at this point? He broke the mirror of twilight, showing that he did learn. And he didn't see his defeat coming because he didn't know about it. You're still failing to realize that Kain was killed by assassins.


eg is still around and was plotting for games and dorf is the ultimate failure and gets waxed, beaten I bet every game he shows up.

See, when you say something this wrong I am obligated to correct you, but that information will come from another game. And then you'll yell about me bringing up other games, even though you keep bringing it up first.


eg is so much more powerful and mencaging than dorf anyways.

No, he isn't. He's a giant weakling squid.


So your point is the master sword can hurt dorf so it makes it better than the reaver which is outside this game and you have zero proof it can't hurt dorf. It's the ultimate fanboy logic I like this more and it it's more powerful since I do.

Oh, the irony. It is delicious. Go look at your posts and look for a single scrap of proof. I gaurantee you won't find one. The Reaver will hurt Ganondorf about as well as the Sage's sword did after he got the Triforce of Power. By which I mean not at all, so please don't go back in time and say it hurt him, because it didn't after the Triforce of Power appeared.


No, that's incorrect he survived after leaving the realm and survived because he's the scion of balance. Amy Hennig confirmed this. It's a fact, sport.

Prove it, and look:

YouTube video

0:13

Originally posted by The Scenario
His mindset does not change his powerset.

4 revivals, all after mortal wounds. You cannot change this fact.

He was still up and talking, with the Blade of Evil's bane sticking out of his chest. It was countering his Triforce of Power, so he effectively didn't have it.

He was in serious danger all 5 times, like I stated. Just because you think having your body explode won't kill you doesn't change the fact that it will. The Triforce of Power is passive. The Hylden Lord would have to tear him apart 5 times, and Ganondorf would only have to annihilate the Hylden Lord once. Ganondorf wins the first time with his superior strength, skill, durability, magic, and speed.

He didn't have the Triforce of Power then, Quanchi. Those assassins killed Kain easily due to overconfidence and arrogance.

You thinking that Ganondorf having his body destroyed three times and not dying shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Did you close your eyes during the scene or what? Ganondorf wrecks the Hylden Lord with superior strength, skill, durability, magic, and speed.

Kain got killed by assassins.

Link?

Triforce of Power.

And he needs to die to do this. If he doesn't, Nosgoth suffers.

You have yet to actually prove any of this. Master Sword is still stronger at what it does.

Zant uses Ganondorf's power and follows Ganondorf's orders. Ganondorf crushed Hyrule without even being there.

Harmless villains win via being more powerful.

Are you ignoring everything I say at this point? He broke the mirror of twilight, showing that he did learn. And he didn't see his defeat coming because he didn't know about it. You're still failing to realize that Kain was killed by assassins.

See, when you say something this wrong I am obligated to correct you, but that information will come from another game. And then you'll yell about me bringing up other games, even though you keep bringing it up first.

No, he isn't. He's a giant weakling squid.

Oh, the irony. It is delicious. Go look at your posts and look for a single scrap of proof. I gaurantee you won't find one. The Reaver will hurt Ganondorf about as well as the Sage's sword did after he got the Triforce of Power. By which I mean not at all, so please don't go back in time and say it hurt him, because it didn't after the Triforce of Power appeared.

Prove it, and look:

YouTube video

0:13

It changes how he fights. If a character's mindset is different than they approach things differently this is a character fight not a powerset fight.

He wasn't in any serious danger. Only when he was wounded by the sages and by Link.

Yes, he was up and talking not fighting. He was at Link's mercy.

No, the Hylden Lord wouldn't just one time. Dorf was never shown to be in any trouble like the previous times I mentioned.

Kain wasn't opposing anyone nor did he have any powers. Dorf was a force and was overconfident Kain was taken just on a random night before he became the Kain of legend. Dorf lost as Dorf. he had powers I wouldn't tear at dorf if he was beaten without any powers but he was beaten with powers because of arrogance.

Dorf wasn't killed any times he was at the sages mercy and they didn't press him. he was also at Link's mercy and wasn't killed or mortally wounded at all save those two times. It's obvious but you just don't want to accept reality. Hylden Lord has tossed around ancient vampires like nothing while Dorf has no strength feats outside breaking some minor chains after a while.

Kain was killed before he had any powers dorf was beaten with powers and quite easily.

You really want the link?

We don't know the answer to that. He will save nosgoth.

You haven't played the games so you don't even know which is stronger and argue based on your love of zelda while I have played both series. That's the difference between you and I.

Yes, he uses Dorf's powers but he did it not Dorf. He also abandoned Dorf and he died because of this.

Hyrule isn't hard to conquer at all. It's one of the weakest realms I have ever seen.

They aren't more powerful or stronger or as intelligent.

Zant broke the mirror and he only learned about the mirror he didn't learn to not take his opponents as seriously as he should hence Link came out of nowhere and crushed him.

eg wasn't even killed in defiance. So what's your point? He's massive compared to dorf or any other smaller zelda character and has been around for ages.

If he was a weakling squid then he would have easily been killed but he wasn't. You also didn't play the games so really you're just ignorant here.

The soulreaver can take his soul the master sword cannot. Bye bye dorf.

What's this video supposed to prove?

Originally posted by quanchi112
It changes how he fights. If a character's mindset is different than they approach things differently this is a character fight not a powerset fight.

Your point? Ganondorf keeps all feats, regardless of whether or not he'll use them.


He wasn't in any serious danger. Only when he was wounded by the sages and by Link.

He wasn't in serious danger because he had the Triforce of Power, yes. Anyone else would have died 5 times over.


Yes, he was up and talking not fighting. He was at Link's mercy.

Did not have Triforce of Power there, as I said earlier.


No, the Hylden Lord wouldn't just one time. Dorf was never shown to be in any trouble like the previous times I mentioned.

You have yet to prove this, or back up anything you've ever said. Ganondorf wasn't in trouble, again, due to the divine artifact keeping him going.


Kain wasn't opposing anyone nor did he have any powers. Dorf was a force and was overconfident Kain was taken just on a random night before he became the Kain of legend. Dorf lost as Dorf. he had powers I wouldn't tear at dorf if he was beaten without any powers but he was beaten with powers because of arrogance.

Kain lost to Sarafan Lord, too, is this not the same thing? Kain was killed by assassins. Kain wouldn't been killed by Raziel if the latter hadn't had free will. Ganondorf didn't have any real power at that point, and as such he was not "Dorf," as you say.


Dorf wasn't killed any times he was at the sages mercy and they didn't press him. he was also at Link's mercy and wasn't killed or mortally wounded at all save those two times. It's obvious but you just don't want to accept reality. Hylden Lord has tossed around ancient vampires like nothing while Dorf has no strength feats outside breaking some minor chains after a while.

He wasn't killed because he had the Triforce of Power. He was killed because he didn't have the Triforce of Power. Is this so difficult to grasp? Against the Sages he didn't have his Power, and once he did get it they couldn't harm him. Against Link, he revived three times, until the Master Sword finally disabled his Triforce of Power.


Kain was killed before he had any powers dorf was beaten with powers and quite easily.

Kain was beaten easily by the Sarafan Lord. Can you prove that Ganondorf was defeated easily?


You really want the link?

For Nayru's sake, YES, or I wouldn't have asked 3 times for it.


We don't know the answer to that. He will save nosgoth.

By sacrificing himself as stated in Blood Omen.


You haven't played the games so you don't even know which is stronger and argue based on your love of zelda while I have played both series. That's the difference between you and I.

I have watched walkthroughs of both Soul Reaver and Defiance, and am currently watching Blood Omen 2. I seem to know it better than you do.


Yes, he uses Dorf's powers but he did it not Dorf. He also abandoned Dorf and he died because of this.

zant was follows Ganondorf's orders, so Ganondorf didn't have to do anything himself. Prove that Zant caused Ganondorf's death, and if you do, realize that Ganondorf didn't die via stabbing as you are currently contradicting yourself.


Hyrule isn't hard to conquer at all. It's one of the weakest realms I have ever seen.

I have seen nothing impressive from Nosgoths featless forces in the walkthroughs I've watched.


They aren't more powerful or stronger or as intelligent.

They are stronger and more powerful. Intelligence seems equal.


Zant broke the mirror and he only learned about the mirror he didn't learn to not take his opponents as seriously as he should hence Link came out of nowhere and crushed him.

Oh yes, because four boss fights is being crushed. Ganondorf was taking Link seriously, as evidenced by possessing Zelda. He simply did not foresee the Master Sword. Did Kain not underestimate the Sarafan Lord?


eg wasn't even killed in defiance. So what's your point? He's massive compared to dorf or any other smaller zelda character and has been around for ages.

Elder God lost due to arrogance and poor planning. His size means nothing when he's that weak.


If he was a weakling squid then he would have easily been killed but he wasn't. You also didn't play the games so really you're just ignorant here.

What are you talking about? I watched Kain absolutely wreck the Elder God, and he only stopped kicking the squid's ass when the cave started to collapse. I watched all of Defiance, so I know what I'm talking about when I say the Eldr God is a weakling.


The soulreaver can take his soul the master sword cannot. Bye bye dorf.

No, it can't, as I have proven multiple times via twilight and Fused Shadows. Check and mate, Sarafan. He gets impaled with the Sage's sword.


What's this video supposed to prove?

The Sarafan Lord states that the Demon Realm insures immortality, thus proving you wrong.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Your point? Ganondorf keeps all feats, regardless of whether or not he'll use them.

He wasn't in serious danger because he had the Triforce of Power, yes. Anyone else would have died 5 times over.

Did not have Triforce of Power there, as I said earlier.

You have yet to prove this, or back up anything you've ever said. Ganondorf wasn't in trouble, again, due to the divine artifact keeping him going.

Kain lost to Sarafan Lord, too, is this not the same thing? Kain was killed by assassins. Kain wouldn't been killed by Raziel if the latter hadn't had free will. Ganondorf didn't have any real power at that point, and as such he was not "Dorf," as you say.

He wasn't killed because he had the Triforce of Power. He was killed because he didn't have the Triforce of Power. Is this so difficult to grasp? Against the Sages he didn't have his Power, and once he did get it they couldn't harm him. Against Link, he revived three times, until the Master Sword finally disabled his Triforce of Power.

Kain was beaten easily by the Sarafan Lord. Can you prove that Ganondorf was defeated easily?

For Nayru's sake, [B]YES, or I wouldn't have asked 3 times for it.

By sacrificing himself as stated in Blood Omen.

I have watched walkthroughs of both Soul Reaver and Defiance, and am currently watching Blood Omen 2. I seem to know it better than you do.

zant was follows Ganondorf's orders, so Ganondorf didn't have to do anything himself. Prove that Zant caused Ganondorf's death, and if you do, realize that Ganondorf didn't die via stabbing as you are currently contradicting yourself.

I have seen nothing impressive from Nosgoths featless forces in the walkthroughs I've watched.

They are stronger and more powerful. Intelligence seems equal.

Oh yes, because four boss fights is being crushed. Ganondorf was taking Link seriously, as evidenced by possessing Zelda. He simply did not foresee the Master Sword. Did Kain not underestimate the Sarafan Lord?

Elder God lost due to arrogance and poor planning. His size means nothing when he's that weak.

What are you talking about? I watched Kain absolutely wreck the Elder God, and he only stopped kicking the squid's ass when the cave started to collapse. I watched all of Defiance, so I know what I'm talking about when I say the Eldr God is a weakling.

No, it can't, as I have proven multiple times via twilight and Fused Shadows. Check and mate, Sarafan. He gets impaled with the Sage's sword.

The Sarafan Lord states that the Demon Realm insures immortality, thus proving you wrong. [/B]

No, since they are different dorfs then the only feats that pertain to each one are the feats they have performed.

No, wrong. The symbol flashes when he needs it and it didn't in those other instances.

Yes, he did but Zant abandoned his weak ass.

The games proved it. You don't have to kill Dorf 5 times that's ridiculous you have to kill him once.

Yes, he did lose to the Sarafan Lord because that's how badass he was. He was the only character to ever beat him due to outsmarting him with the nexus stone.

Raziel did try to kill him by ripping his heart out. What planet are you from that you feel like ripping someone's heart out is a sign of friendship? I mean come on scenario.

Let me find it again.

You are just watching it now and like I said most of these questions coming from you show me you haven't played the games and aren't familiar with them.

If he sacrificed himself he couldn't have brought about vampire guardianship. You say you watch and follow the games so how did you miss this part?

Kain wasn't easily beaten he was beaten whereas Dorf was easily beaten by the mages and killed by Link. He has no victories over anyone himself save Midna so he really didn't prove anything other than he loses quickly when he starts acting up.

Zant did what he wanted to do and dorf lived on through him. Don't act like he was bossing him around and when he needed him he abandoned dorf. He went bye bye.

Then you haven't watched the walkthroughs if you say nothing impressive. You are very biased to the point of ridiculousness.

Intelligence seems equal from two villains who lose every single time unlike Kain who rules for thousands of years. Wow.

Kain beat the Sarafan Lord. Dorf didn't beat Link. That's the difference. Kain killed the Sarafan Lord eventually whereas Link killed Dorf. See the difference Kain's a winner and so is the Sarafan Lord who ruled far longer than any Dorf i would almost guarantee.

eg didn't die or lose. Kain survived because he's the scion of balance and can survive having his heart ripped out. Not many can survive having the very heart that makes them powerful taken from them. That's Kain and eg stretches throughout the land and hasn't been killed unlike Dorf.

The eg wasn't killed so despite all the damage he wasn't beaten so what's your point? Link stabbed Dorf and he lay there beaten by someone who had a few weeks training.

When has Dorf ever resisted having his soul taken? The guy can't resist death itself so please actually think of the games themselves.

Kain survived outside the demon realm with his heart. This statement had to do with the hylden always being around due to their location there. You don't seem able to tell what is being explained here due to Kain's survival in defiance.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, since they are different dorfs then the only feats that pertain to each one are the feats they have performed.

But the Triforce of Power gives Ganondorf, all of them, their feats.


No, wrong. The symbol flashes when he needs it and it didn't in those other instances.

It flashed when it appeared, and it flashed when it disappeared. It also flashed when Ganondorf talked, does that mean he was dying? Oh, and I love the fact that you seem to think exploding is not a life threatening situation. That's four times the Triforce kept him going.


Yes, he did but Zant abandoned his weak ass.

No, it was disabled by the Master Sword or can't you read?


The games proved it. You don't have to kill Dorf 5 times that's ridiculous you have to kill him once.

It was a four part boss battle, Quanchi. You're ignoring the game itself now.


Yes, he did lose to the Sarafan Lord because that's how badass he was. He was the only character to ever beat him due to outsmarting him with the nexus stone.

Oh, you mean one character had this amazing item that stopped another character's invulnerability from working? And that second character lost because he didn't know the first one had this item?
That sounds awfully familiar.


Raziel did try to kill him by ripping his heart out. What planet are you from that you feel like ripping someone's heart out is a sign of friendship? I mean come on scenario.

YouTube video

I'm talking about this, not the heart ripping. Raziel is destined to kill Kain, and history itself attempts to force Raziel to do it. With a Reaver Paradox (two soul reavers in the same place), Raziel's free will allows him to defy destiny and he refuses to kill Kain. Kain was destined, fated, historically and physically, meant to die right then, but Raziel didn't do it.

You said it was Kain's destiny to win. I proved you wrong.


Let me find it again.

k'


You are just watching it now and like I said most of these questions coming from you show me you haven't played the games and aren't familiar with them.

Rhetorical questions. I know what happened and I don't expect you to answer them. I'm trying to get you to realize the double standard here.


If he sacrificed himself he couldn't have brought about vampire guardianship. You say you watch and follow the games so how did you miss this part?

Which one was it in? It's repeatedly stated that Kain's refusal to sacrifice himself made everything worse and corrupted the pillars further.


Kain wasn't easily beaten he was beaten whereas Dorf was easily beaten by the mages and killed by Link. He has no victories over anyone himself save Midna so he really didn't prove anything other than he loses quickly when he starts acting up.

I asked you to prove that he lost easily. You haven't proven it, but instead just said it again. So I will ask you again: Can you prove that Ganondorf lost easily?


Zant did what he wanted to do and dorf lived on through him. Don't act like he was bossing him around and when he needed him he abandoned dorf. He went bye bye.

He was obviously following orders. The stuff Zant did mirrors Ganondorf's actions in OoT, down to freezing Zora's domain and getting rid of the Goron patriarch. He broke the Mirror of Twilight, the only thing that caused Ganondorf to lose. His personality under Ganondorf and his own are completely different.


Then you haven't watched the walkthroughs if you say nothing impressive. You are very biased to the point of ridiculousness.

They have no feats, so I can't give them anything. The Sarafan have no shows of skill, the vampires have no shows of strength or speed, and Elder God's got practically nil.


Intelligence seems equal from two villains who lose every single time unlike Kain who rules for thousands of years. Wow.

Amazing, isn't it? Kian has no competition, nor does he have a hero following him around everywhere he goes. Intelligence has nothing to do with it.


Kain beat the Sarafan Lord. Dorf didn't beat Link. That's the difference. Kain killed the Sarafan Lord eventually whereas Link killed Dorf. See the difference Kain's a winner and so is the Sarafan Lord who ruled far longer than any Dorf i would almost guarantee.

The Sarafan Lord and Kain switched positions and items. Link and Ganondorf didn't. I can't believe you're still of this "Kain is a winner so he always wins," thing you have going. You know what the real difference is? Ganondorf always wins first. Link always wins last. Ganondorf and the Sarafan Lord, ie: the villains, win in the very beginning. The hero, Link or Kain, has to make a comeback, and wins in the end. Link always gets his ass kicked at first, but gets stronger and beter over time, and comes back to win.


eg didn't die or lose. Kain survived because he's the scion of balance and can survive having his heart ripped out. Not many can survive having the very heart that makes them powerful taken from them. That's Kain and eg stretches throughout the land and hasn't been killed unlike Dorf.

Elder God lost hard. Kain survived in the Demon Realm realm long enough to recover. Ganondorf got a blade through his heart and recovered near instantly.


The eg wasn't killed so despite all the damage he wasn't beaten so what's your point? Link stabbed Dorf and he lay there beaten by someone who had a few weeks training.

Again, Elder God lost hard. He got his ass handed to him. And you really didn't play Twilight Princess, did you? You keep forgetting that Link and Ganondorf fought 4 times, not just one stab and it was over.


When has Dorf ever resisted having his soul taken? The guy can't resist death itself so please actually think of the games themselves.

Twilight, man, don't you remember? Touching the stuff removes your soul and turns you into a helples little spirit. Unless, of course, you happen to have a piece of the Triforce, which protects from that kind of thing.


Kain survived outside the demon realm with his heart. This statement had to do with the hylden always being around due to their location there. You don't seem able to tell what is being explained here due to Kain's survival in defiance.

The Demon Realm ensures immortality. This is fact. Kain stayed there long enough to recover and was then able to leave once he did so. Had that portal not randomly opened to save him, Kain would have died. His nature as the Scion of Balance twisted events to prevent him from dying; it did not directly keep him alive.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Which one was it in? It's repeatedly stated that Kain's refusal to sacrifice himself made everything worse and corrupted the pillars further.
BO1 and SR2 both state that Kain was the last vampire at this point. Killing himself would ensure that vampires would become extinct, and the pillars would remain in human guardianship, meaning that eventually the pillars would have been corrupted and destroyed anyway, regardless of Kain's choice.

Originally posted by The Scenario
The Demon Realm ensures immortality. This is fact. Kain stayed there long enough to recover and was then able to leave once he did so. Had that portal not randomly opened to save him, Kain would have died. His nature as the Scion of Balance twisted events to prevent him from dying; it did not directly keep him alive.

Couldn't have put it better myself - good description.
Though it doesn't explain how the demons got killed by Kain.

Originally posted by MadMel
BO1 and SR2 both state that Kain was the last vampire at this point. Killing himself would ensure that vampires would become extinct, and the pillars would remain in human guardianship, meaning that eventually the pillars would have been corrupted and destroyed anyway, regardless of Kain's choice.

Ah, the only games I haven't watched all the way through. Makes me want to play them if I had money. Couldn't he have just turned the Circle into vampires, then? That would kill two birds with one stone, so to speak.


Couldn't have put it better myself - good description.
Though it doesn't explain how the demons got killed by Kain.

Do they truly die, or simply get their bodies destroyed? I mean, Ganondorf has survived the latter before.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Ah, the only games I haven't watched all the way through. Makes me want to play them if I had money. Couldn't he have just turned the Circle into vampires, then? That would kill two birds with one stone, so to speak.

Hahahahahaha!!
If only 😬
To quote Janos Audron "The guardians are chosen by birth, and vampires are no longer 'born'"
The vampires tried to stay in control by kidnapping the human guardians and changing them, but Mobius and Mortanius both rebelled, starting the whole 'sarafan' thing.
Originally posted by The Scenario
Do they truly die, or simply get their bodies destroyed? I mean, Ganondorf has survived the latter before.

Gameplay-wise, they get their arses kicked by kain. They go through the whole "die and slowly dissapear" animation.

Originally posted by MadMel
Hahahahahaha!!
If only 😬
To quote Janos Audron "The guardians are chosen by birth, and vampires are no longer 'born'"
The vampires tried to stay in control by kidnapping the human guardians and changing them, but Mobius and Mortanius both rebelled, starting the whole 'sarafan' thing.

Gameplay-wise, they get their arses kicked by kain. They go through the whole "die and slowly dissapear" animation.

I view that as gameplay-only situation, the Hylden being 'killed' in their resident dimension that is. He likely just temporarily dispatched them as he made his way through the dimension.
Alternatively, it could be that the Blood Reaver had something to do with it.

Originally posted by The Scenario
But the Triforce of Power gives Ganondorf, all of them, their feats.

It flashed when it appeared, and it flashed when it disappeared. It also flashed when Ganondorf talked, does that mean he was dying? Oh, and I love the fact that you seem to think exploding is not a life threatening situation. That's four times the Triforce kept him going.

No, it was disabled by the Master Sword or can't you read?

It was a four part boss battle, Quanchi. You're ignoring the game itself now.

Oh, you mean one character had this amazing item that stopped another character's invulnerability from working? And that second character lost because he didn't know the first one had this item?
That sounds awfully familiar.

YouTube video

I'm talking about this, not the heart ripping. Raziel is destined to kill Kain, and history itself attempts to force Raziel to do it. With a Reaver Paradox (two soul reavers in the same place), Raziel's free will allows him to defy destiny and he refuses to kill Kain. Kain was destined, fated, historically and physically, meant to die right then, but Raziel didn't do it.

You said it was Kain's destiny to win. I proved you wrong.

k'

Rhetorical questions. I know what happened and I don't expect you to answer them. I'm trying to get you to realize the double standard here.

Which one was it in? It's repeatedly stated that Kain's refusal to sacrifice himself made everything worse and corrupted the pillars further.

I asked you to prove that he lost easily. You haven't proven it, but instead just said it again. So I will ask you again: Can you prove that Ganondorf lost easily?

He was obviously following orders. The stuff Zant did mirrors Ganondorf's actions in OoT, down to freezing Zora's domain and getting rid of the Goron patriarch. He broke the Mirror of Twilight, the only thing that caused Ganondorf to lose. His personality under Ganondorf and his own are completely different.

They have no feats, so I can't give them anything. The Sarafan have no shows of skill, the vampires have no shows of strength or speed, and Elder God's got practically nil.

Amazing, isn't it? Kian has no competition, nor does he have a hero following him around everywhere he goes. Intelligence has nothing to do with it.

The Sarafan Lord and Kain switched positions and items. Link and Ganondorf didn't. I can't believe you're still of this "Kain is a winner so he always wins," thing you have going. You know what the real difference is? Ganondorf always wins first. Link always wins last. Ganondorf and the Sarafan Lord, ie: the villains, win in the very beginning. The hero, Link or Kain, has to make a comeback, and wins in the end. Link always gets his ass kicked at first, but gets stronger and beter over time, and comes back to win.

Elder God lost hard. Kain survived in the Demon Realm realm long enough to recover. Ganondorf got a blade through his heart and recovered near instantly.

Again, Elder God lost hard. He got his ass handed to him. And you really didn't play Twilight Princess, did you? You keep forgetting that Link and Ganondorf fought 4 times, not just one stab and it was over.

Twilight, man, don't you remember? Touching the stuff removes your soul and turns you into a helples little spirit. Unless, of course, you happen to have a piece of the Triforce, which protects from that kind of thing.

The Demon Realm ensures immortality. This is fact. Kain stayed there long enough to recover and was then able to leave once he did so. Had that portal not randomly opened to save him, Kain would have died. His nature as the Scion of Balance twisted events to prevent him from dying; it did not directly keep him alive.

He only used the trifroce through luck in this game and passively activated it. This is a different Dorf and you're continued crying about it won't change the fact it's a different dorf. The funnest part is hardcore fans of the series who have theorized it say the timeline splits which means alternate realities.

He was moving his molecules around in different forms he wasn't in any real danger until his dorf form was injured. The game supports this.

He loses life when Zant moves his head meaning he abandoned his weak ruler as he was a failure. Nowhere in this game does it state the master sword cut off his powers. Sorry.

Wow. It's a gameplay thing in a forum fight you can't get your head cut off four times and keep fighting. In the gameplay you cannot kill him until you defeat the boss stages and that's like saying Kain can't be hurt by Raziel until the second or third time he fights him because that's how it plays it in a cinema. Use your head.

Nowhere in top does it state the master sword stops dorf's power from working he fought him for a long time and was defeated he wasn't cut off from his power during the fight he lost when Zant abandoned him.

Kain wasn't meant to die he was meant to restore vampire guardianship. You need to play these games and actually focus on what his mission is as opposed to one scene with Raziel.

If you claim you know the series it's obvious then. Kain is fated to restore vampire guardianship not die as the last vampire. I haven't played these games and beat them in years yet you claim you are watching the vids now and still missed this theme over and over again.

Yes, the sages beat him easily. They tied him up, stabbed him, he even had the triforce of power and they still bfr'd him easily only losing one man against someone backed by the triforce of power. That's called a beatdown.

No he wasn't. Dorf said he will love through him so he did what he wanted. Nowhere does it say he follows his orders he just lived on through him as his avatar.

The vampires have no strength feats or speed feats.

😂 😂

You live in your own world then don't you? They unlike Link have them. Ripping out a heart is much more impressive than beating up a sumo guy with added weight. They actually say Kain is stronger, faster, can jump farther than any man while no athletic distinction is ever made in favor of Link. He's a guy who struggles to lift a weapon with both hands.

Kain has the sarafan wanting him dead, vampire hunters, the hylden, raziel at one point, the eg, william the just, the other corrupted guardians, his former vampire allies, etc. Dorf just opposes Link and hyrule which can be decimated by one lone dragon. It's the weakest realm I have ever seen.

Dorf lost twice in the game. He didn't win anything. He came out of nowhere got beat, showed back up, and got beat again. He had the triforce of power and still lost to the sages no master sword. The guy's a bum and is destined to failure and short life cycles.

Kain left the eg but he wasn't defeated unlike Dorf who was killed like trash. eg lived on and was barely effected by a fully combined reaver while dorf sat there and died like he was nothing.

Kain was healed by Raziel before he fought eg I have no idea why you bring up the demon realm it has nothing to do with anything.

No, the hylden were assured of their immortality by staying there whereas vampires are already immortal aka Janos, Kain, etc. They can still be killed but the demon realm has nothing to do with vampires who were always immportal but chose to die based on blind faith to the eg and the circle of fate. You don't understand the games but I don't hold it against you you haven't played them.

It directly kept him alive. Amy Hennig said him being the scion of balnce kept him alive not his placement in the demon realm. You're trying to tie one statement from the end o fbo2 to Kain which was only directed to the hylden and insured their continued immortality.

Most of the interview.

Question and Answer with Amy Hennig
article by Ben Lincoln

Former Kain series writer/director Amy Hennig scoured the fan forums looking for questions about the game that she thought needed answering. I have posted them here as a historical archive. Questons are written in bold text, and her answers (which were paraphrased by me at her request) are in italics.

How does the Hash'ak'gik/Turel/Hylden relationship work?

"Hash'ak'gik" is the name the human worshippers use for their god. The actual Hash entity is a leader among the Hylden, who has his own agenda. In Defiance, he possesses Janos. In Blood Omen, he uses the transformed body of Mortanius as a vessel. In Blood Omen 2, he appears as the Hylden Lord (AKA Sarafan Lord). When Raziel meets Turel, Turel is actually being possessed by a number of other Hylden (not the Hylden Lord). Many different Hylden did so in order to command their disciples.

Why does Mortanius have a different voice actor than in Blood Omen?

To avoid confusion with Tony Jay's voice acting as The Elder God. Tony has a great voice, but it's always clear that it's him, and the intention was not to make The Elder God and Mortanius sound the same. Alastair Duncan is actually married to Anna Gunn (Ariel), but Amy didn't realize that when she was casting him.

Does the young Kain still kill Moebius?

Yes. When Moebius is summoned to the Citadel at the end of the game, the Elder God has resurrected him from dying at the hands of Blood Omen-era Kain.

How does Defiance relate to the events of Blood Omen 2?

The events of Defiance cause Blood Omen 2 to be possible. During the rift when the Pillars collapse, the Hylden Lord/Hash is able to escape his imprisonment and possess Janos. This means that not only does he have an indestructible vessel for himself, but once he gets another body in BO2, he has Janos prison to use to power The Device. Vorador's appearance in that game was going to be explained a little bit in the original Defiance design, but this part was trimmed down.

Why does Janos recognize Raziel in Soul Reaver 2 if they've never met?

The ancient vampires' prophecy foretold Raziel's coming. Janos was expecting the hero depicted in the murals, and was surprised to see Raziel's true appearance.

How can Kain survive without the Heart of Darkness?

His nature as the Scion of Balance allows him to survive.

How could the young Kain collect Hearts of Darkness in Blood Omen if he had it inside of his chest all along?

Originally posted by quanchi112
He only used the trifroce through luck in this game and passively activated it. This is a different Dorf and you're continued crying about it won't change the fact it's a different dorf. The funnest part is hardcore fans of the series who have theorized it say the timeline splits which means alternate realities.

Contradiction. You cannot "passively activate" something, as the two terms are opposite by definition. It's either passive or active, and the Triforce of Power is proven to be passive since Ganondorf doesn't have to do anything. Further, nothing you said changes the fact that the Triforce of Power is always the same, regardless of the reality.


He was moving his molecules around in different forms he wasn't in any real danger until his dorf form was injured. The game supports this.

But he was not reduced to molecules by his own will, nor did he intentionally set his Ganon body on fire. The game supports that Ganondorf was severely injured each time yet still got back up, until the Master Sword managed to cancel his power.


He loses life when Zant moves his head meaning he abandoned his weak ruler as he was a failure. Nowhere in this game does it state the master sword cut off his powers. Sorry.

It's obvious you hate Ganondorf, but please try to be civil, okay? Now, can you prove this? We don't know what Zant did exactly, and your assumptions aren't helping. Zant was dead at this time, if you remember. That scene was symbolic, if anything.


Wow. It's a gameplay thing in a forum fight you can't get your head cut off four times and keep fighting. In the gameplay you cannot kill him until you defeat the boss stages and that's like saying Kain can't be hurt by Raziel until the second or third time he fights him because that's how it plays it in a cinema. Use your head.

But don't you see that Ganondorf can come back quickly even if killed? The canon cutscenes show that Ganondorf can keep fighting even when his entire body is destroyed, so getting his head cut off would be nothing. He'll simply come back as either Beast Ganon, God Ganon, or he'll reform another body as he is shown to do in cutscene. According to the cutscenes, not gameplay, Ganondorf can do this up to four times before dying.


Nowhere in top does it state the master sword stops dorf's power from working he fought him for a long time and was defeated he wasn't cut off from his power during the fight he lost when Zant abandoned him.

It is the Blade of Evil's Bane, specializing in The Power to Repel Evil. Just titles, yes, but also a description of what it does. The Master Sword has always had this power even since its first appearance and in all subsequent ones. It's repeatedly shown to have an adverse effect on twilight/evil and all things related to it. The Guardian Dieties of the Twilight Realm even empowered it further with the Sols.

You realize that you're arguing Ganondorf can't be killed unless Zant wants him to, right? Again, Zant was dead, can you prove he actually did anything beyond some obsure symbolism?


Kain wasn't meant to die he was meant to restore vampire guardianship. You need to play these games and actually focus on what his mission is as opposed to one scene with Raziel.

You are now arguing against the canon itself. That "one scene" consists of Kain repeatedly saying that he is destined to die right there, and it's even proven when Raziel starts trying to kill him against his will. This point isn't even relevant, it's just me arguing against your blatant Zelda hate.


If you claim you know the series it's obvious then. Kain is fated to restore vampire guardianship not die as the last vampire. I haven't played these games and beat them in years yet you claim you are watching the vids now and still missed this theme over and over again.

He was destined to die. As I recall, Raziel was the Redeemer and Destroyer, both the Vampire and Hylden Champions. Kain isn't the Vampire's savior; Raziel is. Kain just needs to die.


Yes, the sages beat him easily. They tied him up, stabbed him, he even had the triforce of power and they still bfr'd him easily only losing one man against someone backed by the triforce of power. That's called a beatdown.

No, they didn't, can you prove that statement? The Sages said that he was captured, not that they did it, nor did they mention how easily it was done. In fact, the evidence points to the fact that he was considered highly dangerous. Do you remember how the Arbiter's Grounds was a place meant for the worst criminals Hyrule had to offer, and Ganondorf was sent there? Do you realize how important the Sages are, and how high profile Ganondorf would have to be for all seven of them to see to him personally?

The rest of that point has already been addressed. Ganondorf knew they couldn't hurt him and only the killed his executioner. He wasn't even trying to kill the rest of them. The BFR, and the entirety of that scene, was nothing but PIS. And if you remember, it's a flashback that doesn't reflect the current Ganondorf. Regardless, the Hylden Lord couldn't replicate any part of that, exept for maybe a stab that Ganondorf will revive from.


No he wasn't. Dorf said he will love through him so he did what he wanted. Nowhere does it say he follows his orders he just lived on through him as his avatar.

Ganondorf was living through him. Did you not notice that Zant's personality did a complete 180 later in the game? In the beginning, Zant was cold, calculating, and terrifying. Then came the confrontation, where Zant says that Ganondorf has already been reborn. After that, Zant is a raving lunatic, just as he was before Ganondorf's influence. Ganondorf possessed him, it looks like.


The vampires have no strength feats or speed feats.

😂 😂

They don't.


You live in your own world then don't you? They unlike Link have them. Ripping out a heart is much more impressive than beating up a sumo guy with added weight. They actually say Kain is stronger, faster, can jump farther than any man while no athletic distinction is ever made in favor of Link. He's a guy who struggles to lift a weapon with both hands.

Those are Kain's feats, not the feats of vampires in general. Thus, Kain has a few feats, but the vampires have none. Gorons, on the other hand, have plenty, as do the Shadow Beasts. You're just hating on Zelda, latching on to one low showing like it's the only thing Link has done. It's entirely pointless, as you're in the wrong thread. This is Ganondorf vs. the Hylden Lord.


Kain has the sarafan wanting him dead, vampire hunters, the hylden, raziel at one point, the eg, william the just, the other corrupted guardians, his former vampire allies, etc. Dorf just opposes Link and hyrule which can be decimated by one lone dragon. It's the weakest realm I have ever seen.

Ganondorf has the Gorons, Zoras, Hylians, and Twili wanting him dead. What lone dragon? If you're referring to Volvagia, that isn't Twilight Princess. Please follow your own rules. I don't know which games you're talking about for Kain, but I doubt all of it is Defiance. Oh, wait, wrong thread. Again, follow your own rules, please.


Dorf lost twice in the game. He didn't win anything. He came out of nowhere got beat, showed back up, and got beat again. He had the triforce of power and still lost to the sages no master sword. The guy's a bum and is destined to failure and short life cycles.

Why do you hate Ganondorf? It's really sad, he's such a good villain and you just treat him like crap. And you used to think so highly of him. Until I disagreed with you, off course.

As for your post, Ganondorf defeated Link while "living through" Zant, and brought Hyrule to its knees. The Sages used PIS and an honest to god plot device to win. They could not possibly have killed him. Had Ganondorf not held back, they all would have died. You're still just latching on to one low showing and treating it like it's how Ganondorf is all the time when it isn't. You really don't know the character, so why must you blindly hate him?


Kain left the eg but he wasn't defeated unlike Dorf who was killed like trash. eg lived on and was barely effected by a fully combined reaver while dorf sat there and died like he was nothing.

Again with the blind hatred. Did you forget that it took four boss fights, with various cutscenes depicting Ganondorf being revived or reforming, followed by being stabbed with his only weakness, which prevented his powers from working, to kill him? And yes, the Elder God was barely affected, that's why he was constantly screaming in pain and growing so desperate as to collapse the room. This isn't relevant to the Hylden Lord.


Kain was healed by Raziel before he fought eg I have no idea why you bring up the demon realm it has nothing to do with anything.

It isn't relevant to the Hylden Lord, but the demon realm kept Kain from dying from his obviously fatal wound.


No, the hylden were assured of their immortality by staying there whereas vampires are already immortal aka Janos, Kain, etc. They can still be killed but the demon realm has nothing to do with vampires who were always immportal but chose to die based on blind faith to the eg and the circle of fate. You don't understand the games but I don't hold it against you you haven't played them.

The vampires had biological immortality. The demon realm grants physical invulnerability, it seems. The Hylden said that the place would twist his form, so being able to live without a heart is obviously one of those twists. What with how many copies of the Heart of Darkness Kain consumed in Blood Omen 1, it doesn't seem surprising that he could live without the real one.


It directly kept him alive. Amy Hennig said him being the scion of balnce kept him alive not his placement in the demon realm. You're trying to tie one statement from the end o fbo2 to Kain which was only directed to the hylden and insured their continued immortality.

According to your little quote (which is still not the link I asked for), it seems she said it allowed him to survive. Still too vague, as that could support either argument. Why did that portal to the Demon Realm appear the moment Kain began dying? Why did another portal open to allow him to escape? His nature as the Scion of Balance allowed him to survive by bringing him to a place where he couldn't die.

This is all irrelevant to the Hylden Lord, however.