Ganondorf(tp) vs. Hylden Lord(BO2)

Originally posted by The Scenario
Contradiction. You cannot "passively activate" something, as the two terms are opposite by definition. It's either passive or active, and the Triforce of Power is proven to be passive since Ganondorf doesn't have to do anything. Further, nothing you said changes the fact that the Triforce of Power is always the same, regardless of the reality.

But he was not reduced to molecules by his own will, nor did he intentionally set his Ganon body on fire. The game supports that Ganondorf was severely injured each time yet still got back up, until the Master Sword managed to cancel his power.

It's obvious you hate Ganondorf, but please try to be civil, okay? Now, can you prove this? We don't know what Zant did exactly, and your assumptions aren't helping. Zant was dead at this time, if you remember. That scene was symbolic, if anything.

But don't you see that Ganondorf can come back quickly even if killed? The canon cutscenes show that Ganondorf can keep fighting even when his entire body is destroyed, so getting his head cut off would be nothing. He'll simply come back as either Beast Ganon, God Ganon, or he'll reform another body as he is shown to do in cutscene. According to the cutscenes, not gameplay, Ganondorf can do this up to four times before dying.

It is the Blade of Evil's Bane, specializing in The Power to Repel Evil. Just titles, yes, but also a description of what it does. The Master Sword has always had this power even since its first appearance and in all subsequent ones. It's repeatedly shown to have an adverse effect on twilight/evil and all things related to it. The Guardian Dieties of the Twilight Realm even empowered it further with the Sols.

You realize that you're arguing Ganondorf can't be killed unless Zant wants him to, right? Again, Zant was dead, can you prove he actually did anything beyond some obsure symbolism?

You are now arguing against the canon itself. That "one scene" consists of Kain repeatedly saying that he is destined to die right there, and it's even proven when Raziel starts trying to kill him against his will. This point isn't even relevant, it's just me arguing against your blatant Zelda hate.

He was destined to die. As I recall, Raziel was the Redeemer and Destroyer, both the Vampire and Hylden Champions. Kain isn't the Vampire's savior; Raziel is. Kain just needs to die.

No, they didn't, can you prove that statement? The Sages said that he was captured, not that they did it, nor did they mention how easily it was done. In fact, the evidence points to the fact that he was considered highly dangerous. Do you remember how the Arbiter's Grounds was a place meant for the worst criminals Hyrule had to offer, and Ganondorf was sent there? Do you realize how important the Sages are, and how high profile Ganondorf would have to be for all seven of them to see to him personally?

The rest of that point has already been addressed. Ganondorf knew they couldn't hurt him and only the killed his executioner. He wasn't even trying to kill the rest of them. The BFR, and the entirety of that scene, was nothing but PIS. And if you remember, it's a flashback that doesn't reflect the current Ganondorf. Regardless, the Hylden Lord couldn't replicate any part of that, exept for maybe a stab that Ganondorf will revive from.

Ganondorf was living through him. Did you not notice that Zant's personality did a complete 180 later in the game? In the beginning, Zant was cold, calculating, and terrifying. Then came the confrontation, where Zant says that Ganondorf has already been reborn. After that, Zant is a raving lunatic, just as he was before Ganondorf's influence. Ganondorf possessed him, it looks like.

They don't.

Those are Kain's feats, not the feats of vampires in general. Thus, Kain has a few feats, but the vampires have none. Gorons, on the other hand, have plenty, as do the Shadow Beasts. You're just hating on Zelda, latching on to one low showing like it's the only thing Link has done. It's entirely pointless, as you're in the wrong thread. This is Ganondorf vs. the Hylden Lord.

Ganondorf has the Gorons, Zoras, Hylians, and Twili wanting him dead. What lone dragon? If you're referring to Volvagia, that isn't Twilight Princess. Please follow your own rules. I don't know which games you're talking about for Kain, but I doubt all of it is Defiance. Oh, wait, wrong thread. Again, follow your own rules, please.

Why do you hate Ganondorf? It's really sad, he's such a good villain and you just treat him like crap. And you used to think so highly of him. Until I disagreed with you, off course.

As for your post, Ganondorf defeated Link while "living through" Zant, and brought Hyrule to its knees. The Sages used PIS and an honest to god plot device to win. They could not possibly have killed him. Had Ganondorf not held back, they all would have died. You're still just latching on to one low showing and treating it like it's how Ganondorf is all the time when it isn't. You really don't know the character, so why must you blindly hate him?

Again with the blind hatred. Did you forget that it took four boss fights, with various cutscenes depicting Ganondorf being revived or reforming, followed by being stabbed with his only weakness, which prevented his powers from working, to kill him? And yes, the Elder God was barely affected, that's why he was constantly screaming in pain and growing so desperate as to collapse the room. This isn't relevant to the Hylden Lord.

It isn't relevant to the Hylden Lord, but the demon realm kept Kain from dying from his obviously fatal wound.

I highly doubt that and heard no mention of this at all.

No, the game only supports he was mortally injured twice since we saw the symbol light up to save him and then it failed.

I like ganondorf hence my old sig. You wanking him is what I hate.Soon as his head turned Dorf died you can ignore this all you want because I am used to you ignoring things.

If cutting his head off was nothing then a simple impalement wouldn't cause him to bat an eyelash. Your theories don't add up and never will.

This is tp you need to cite something from tp that supports this as these games don't follow the same histories so this excuse doesn't fly.

No, I am saying that zant abandoned him who was his avatar he needs one it appears to come back.

You aren't familiar with the series Kain doesn't want to die and knows later on his destiny isn't to have died hence no more vampires. It's facts you are arguing with.

You aren't understanding the game correctly. Kain is the scion of balance destined to bring them back to power not Raziel who was always kain's right hand, his sword.

Here is the exact dialogue it's so funny you still can't comprehend these games.

Kain
Do you so enjoy death--

Moebius responds strangely, with satisfaction--

Moebius (actually Raziel)
Yes...

Then Moebius transforms, and Kain sees that it's Raziel impaled on the blade -- just as Raziel's soul begins to leech into the Reaver.

Kain
Raziel? - No -

Kain tries to pull away, but Raziel takes hold of Kain's arm so that he can't.

Raziel
Yes - this is how...

Kain
--No, Raziel!

Kain resists, but Raziel pulls himself farther onto the blade --

Raziel
The Soul Reaver -- pure of all corruption -- this is what it is for. This is what I am for --
-- and puts his right hand over Kain's wounded chest. We see the purifying energy of the Spirit Reaver pass through Raziel and into Kain at this point, and we see the wound heal.

Raziel
The two become one - both Soul Reavers - together - and the Scion of Balance is healed. And I -- am not your enemy - not your destroyer - I am, as before, your right hand. Your sword.

They captured him due to overconfidence. We can see them easily defeat him after he is backed by the triforce of power they only lose one sage and they best him, easily.

Dorf thought he was going to prevail or them but didn't because he's well stupid. he also was defeated by Link and didn't even know what the master sword was because he's well, stupid.

The gorons aren't aware of Dorf and since when do the twili want him dead? The zoras also aren't aware of his presence so please quit making things up. We see how pathetic the hyrulian army is first hand.

I like dorf.

The sages used a plot device because dorf used one. Without the plot device dorf was beaten and with it he was beaten.

Boss fights aren't indicative of what it takes otherwise it takes zeus like 7 times or so. Please try and think.

No, him being the scion of balance did it was directly stated. Nowhere does it ever state the demon realm it was just who he was. He's such a badass.

Originally posted by The Scenario
The vampires had biological immortality. The demon realm grants physical invulnerability, it seems. The Hylden said that the place would twist his form, so being able to live without a heart is obviously one of those twists. What with how many copies of the Heart of Darkness Kain consumed in Blood Omen 1, it doesn't seem surprising that he could live without the real one.

According to your little quote (which is still not the link I asked for), it seems she said it allowed him to survive. Still too vague, as that could support either argument. Why did that portal to the Demon Realm appear the moment Kain began dying? Why did another portal open to allow him to escape? His nature as the Scion of Balance allowed him to survive by bringing him to a place where he couldn't die.

This is all irrelevant to the Hylden Lord, however.

I'll answer your question right here. You don't get the series and never will it seems.

How can Kain survive without the Heart of Darkness?

His nature as the Scion of Balance allows him to survive.

How could the young Kain collect Hearts of Darkness in Blood Omen if he had it inside of his chest all along?

The Heart of Darkness cards are representations of the relic, not the real thing. Janos didn't have 99 hearts anyway =).

I mean use a little common sense.

No, that means nothing can kill him no matter what since he's the scion and he'll always survive. He survived because of him being the scion it had nothing to do with the demon realm.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, you can.

How? Explain that, please. And provide proof that Ganondorf activated it, not that it did so on its own.

I highly doubt that and heard no mention of this at all.

You highly doubt that bodily destruction is fatal?

No, the game only supports he was mortally injured twice since we saw the symbol light up to save him and then it failed.

The symbol lighting up means nothing. You have repeatedly ignored my point that the symbol also lights up when Ganondorf talks. If that's what you're saying, then Ganondorf can survive his body being destroyed without the Triforce of Power, since it didn't light up.

I like ganondorf hence my old sig. You wanking him is what I hate.Soon as his head turned Dorf died you can ignore this all you want because I am used to you ignoring things.

You like Ganondorf, yet you repeatedly call him trash, destined to lose, a weak bum, a pathetic loser, and so on and so forth. If you liked the character, you wouldn't do this, so I drew the obviously conclusion that you hated him.

If cutting his head off was nothing then a simple impalement wouldn't cause him to bat an eyelash. Your theories don't add up and never will.

They have always added up, and they are not theories. The fact is that you are ignoring which sword did the impaling. The Sage's sword failed, and the Master Sword worked. Do you not get why that is? The Sage's sword is not Ganondorf's explicit weakness, but the Master Sword is. It is not, nor was it ever, a simple impalement.

This is tp you need to cite something from tp that supports this as these games don't follow the same histories so this excuse doesn't fly.

Yes, they do follow the same history, you're just determined to ignore the things you know nothing about.

Here:
YouTube video

Watch 5:40 and everything after it. Also note what Zelda says at 6:23.

YouTube video

No, I am saying that zant abandoned him who was his avatar he needs one it appears to come back.

Zant is dead. He can't be an avatar if he's dead. Explain this anomaly.

You aren't familiar with the series Kain doesn't want to die and knows later on his destiny isn't to have died hence no more vampires. It's facts you are arguing with.

The cutscene supports me, however. How can I be arguing with the facts if they're on my side?

You aren't understanding the game correctly. Kain is the scion of balance destined to bring them back to power not Raziel who was always kain's right hand, his sword.

That is contradicted by Raziel being both the Vampire and Hylden champions. Raziel changed their destinies.

Here is the exact dialogue it's so funny you still can't comprehend these games.

And now there seems to be conflicting canon, or you're just not explaining it correctly. Raziel is messing with destiny again.

They captured him due to overconfidence. We can see them easily defeat him after he is backed by the triforce of power they only lose one sage and they best him, easily.

You're still ignoring everything about that scene. Did you see Ganondorf trying? It was PIS, and the use of a plot device. BFR isn't a true defeat anyway, and the Hylden Lord can't replicate it.

Dorf thought he was going to prevail or them but didn't because he's well stupid. he also was defeated by Link and didn't even know what the master sword was because he's well, stupid.

You can't seriously believe this, can you? He was beaten by a plot device, and how does not knowing about something make you stupid? He was ignorant for plot purposes.

The gorons aren't aware of Dorf and since when do the twili want him dead? The zoras also aren't aware of his presence so please quit making things up. We see how pathetic the hyrulian army is first hand.

Do you know why they didn't? Because he was using Zant. And Ganondorf was living through Zant, right? Ganondorf deliberately made it so that his enemies didn't even know he existed, much better than, say, Kain.

I like dorf.

Your repeated insults indicate otherwise. Just a moment ago you called him stupid when he wasn't.

The sages used a plot device because dorf used one. Without the plot device dorf was beaten and with it he was beaten.

BFR isn't a real defeat, and the Triforce of Power is an integral part of Ganondorf's character. Without it, he isn't Ganondorf. So, no.

Boss fights aren't indicative of what it takes otherwise it takes zeus like 7 times or so. Please try and think.

Stop insulting my intelligence when I know more about the character than you do. Now, if you would actually watch the cutscenes between the battles then you would realize that Ganondorf is continuously reforming and reviving himself.

No, him being the scion of balance did it was directly stated. Nowhere does it ever state the demon realm it was just who he was. He's such a badass.

It said it "allowed him to survive." That doesn't mean it directly kept him from dying. Can you explain the portal? Also, get me a link to the interview, please.

No, it doesn't Kain killed enemies there. Where do you get this from? You go from making one thing up to the next.

Gameplay. The Hylden Lord says that the Demon Realm ensures immortality.

I'll answer your question right here. You don't get the series and never will it seems.

You're doing an extremely poor job of explaining it.

I mean use a little common sense.

Common sense is worthless. Proof is needed.

No, that means nothing can kill him no matter what since he's the scion and he'll always survive. He survived because of him being the scion it had nothing to do with the demon realm.

Explain to me why Kain was sent to the Demon Realm. That portal was not there before his heart was removed.

Like I said earlier - Fate always works in Kain's favor when it comes to life and death situations - It had nothing to do with his own durability. This I've proven multiple times 😬

Originally posted by The Scenario
How? Explain that, please. And provide proof that Ganondorf activated it, not that it did so on its own.

You highly doubt that bodily destruction is fatal?

The symbol lighting up means nothing. You have repeatedly ignored my point that the symbol also lights up when Ganondorf talks. If that's what you're saying, then Ganondorf can survive his body being destroyed without the Triforce of Power, since it didn't light up.

You like Ganondorf, yet you repeatedly call him trash, destined to lose, a weak bum, a pathetic loser, and so on and so forth. If you liked the character, you wouldn't do this, so I drew the obviously conclusion that you hated him.

They have always added up, and they are not theories. The fact is that you are ignoring which sword did the impaling. The Sage's sword failed, and the Master Sword worked. Do you not get why that is? The Sage's sword is not Ganondorf's explicit weakness, but the Master Sword is. It is not, nor was it ever, a simple impalement.

Yes, they do follow the same history, you're just determined to ignore the things you know nothing about.

Here:
YouTube video

Watch 5:40 and everything after it. Also note what Zelda says at 6:23.

YouTube video

Zant is dead. He can't be an avatar if he's dead. Explain this anomaly.

The cutscene supports me, however. How can I be arguing with the facts if they're on my side?

That is contradicted by Raziel being both the Vampire and Hylden champions. Raziel changed their destinies.

And now there seems to be conflicting canon, or you're just not explaining it correctly. Raziel is messing with destiny again.

You're still ignoring everything about that scene. Did you see Ganondorf trying? It was PIS, and the use of a plot device. BFR isn't a true defeat anyway, and the Hylden Lord can't replicate it.

You can't seriously believe this, can you? He was beaten by a plot device, and how does not knowing about something make you stupid? He was ignorant for plot purposes.

Do you know why they didn't? Because he was using Zant. And Ganondorf was living through Zant, right? Ganondorf deliberately made it so that his enemies didn't even know he existed, much better than, say, Kain.

Your repeated insults indicate otherwise. Just a moment ago you called him stupid when he wasn't.

BFR isn't a real defeat, and the Triforce of Power is an integral part of Ganondorf's character. Without it, he isn't Ganondorf. So, no.

Stop insulting my intelligence when I know more about the character than you do. Now, if you would actually watch the cutscenes between the battles then you would realize that Ganondorf is continuously reforming and reviving himself.

It said it "allowed him to survive." That doesn't mean it directly kept him from dying. Can you explain the portal? Also, get me a link to the interview, please.

Gameplay. The Hylden Lord says that the Demon Realm ensures immortality.

You're doing an extremely poor job of explaining it.

Common sense is worthless. Proof is needed.

Explain to me why Kain was sent to the Demon Realm. That portal was not there before his heart was removed.

I highly doubt the master sword canceled out his power. It just killed him dorf didn't get weaker as they fought just lost.

So you want to ignore the game yet again because you are wrong and it crushes your case. It lighted up when it saved him and faded when it could not due to zant abandoning him.

Oh relax I like the guy but compared to the Hylden Lord o Kain he's a failure, aka a bum. I like the bum but he has no staying power and loses to whatever hero he faces off against with however little time the hero has.

It failed because zant his avatar abandoned him. I also think it cannot come back from everything and being impaled is nothing compared to having your heart ripped out.

The video won't work what happens in it again?

Just tell me.

Talk to the zelda people they put zant in there and soon as he moved his head dorf died. I didn't put zant in it at the end they did.

No, they don't. The murals were there to get raziel and Kain to fight. You aren't even aware of their purpose at all. You seem rather confused with this series and getting desperate.

The actual dialogue and Raziel had free will so nothing was written in destiny as he had the power to do what he wanted. I love pwning you every step of the way.

Moebius
Raziel - the conquering hero. I understand we are to offer congratulations. Kain, at last, is dead.

Raziel
I suppose you expect similar congratulations on the death of Vorador? Or has he eluded you?

Moebius throws Vorador's sword at Raziel's feet.

Moebius
We have him. But not without a considerable price in blood.

Raziel
That will have pleased him.

Moebius
Let it sustain him until his head is off, and every vampire in Nosgoth at last is dead.

Raziel
And will that knowledge sustain you? You too are going to your death.

Moebius
For a true servant of the one God, death is never bitter. I will go - again at peace with the knowledge that I have played my small part in our master's plans. Kain is at last destroyed, and you have carried out the deed. Which hero do you think you are now? The vampire savior? Or the other one? Have you realized yet that it didn't matter to us which one either of you thought you were, so long as the result was the same in the end? And now, Kain is dead. Really, I cannot thank you enough.

Raziel
So this has all been arranged, every step of the way. And Kain thought I truly had free will.

Moebius
Oh, but you do. And there's the greatest triumph of all, to have compelled the one player who could choose into doing exactly what we required. Well done, faithful servant. And now - I have an execution to see to.

Raziel had a choice and was always Kain's sword his right hand so to speak as I put up through his own words. Kain could have been killed by Raziel but tearing out his heart wasn't enough.

Dorf used his own plot device the power triforce so it's amusing that they are not allowed after they easily beat him without the triforce of power. Not that he gets one they think quickly an duse the mirror and it defeats him. Both had plot devices and dorf still lost.

Hylden Lord kills him with the reaver he doesn't need to banish him.

Yes, he tricked a broken army save Link. Link showed up and defeated him and we already know the hyrulian army was weak and ineffective. Kain doesn't need to hide out he has ruled for thousands of years while dorf doesn't even seem fit to rule for more than a week.

Dorf to me is stupid in this game anyways.

Yes, it's a win. The triforce can also fail him and doesn't make him invincible. Sages whooped him as did Link.

He was never in any real danger save the two times.

I put up enough of the interview already. I backed my case.

Raziel tk's him into the portal and we assume he's dead until he comes to later after Raziel is killed by a possess janos. Kain finishes the game.

Yes, it ensures their immortality as they live there. if you step on there you aren't unkillable. Kain kills the hylden lord and he's from the demon realm. If what you are saying is true he'd die soon as he came back to nosgoth. I mean it doesn't even make sense any which way you look at it.

I am copy and pasting an interview where she explains it.

I have provided proof.

There's a dimensional rift in the room and he tk's him into it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Whether he did so on his own or this occurred without him is irrelevant he only lighted up when he needed it. It also leaves him helpless.

It lights up when he talks. It doesn't light up when his body is destroyed. Your argument is invalid.

I highly doubt the master sword canceled out his power. It just killed him dorf didn't get weaker as they fought just lost.

Did you watch the video? Zelda specifically states that the Master Sword can cleave evil power, and that's all Ganondorf is. Did you watch the second video? The Master Sword removed the evil power from Link's body, it can also remove the evil power from Ganondorf's body. Can you prove that Ganondorf didn't get weaker? He seemed to be suffering after being stabbed through the heart, hit by his own magic, removed from Zelda's body via Fused Shadows + Triforce of Wisdom, being destroyed in his Beast Ganon body, being pelted with Light Arrows, and then standing right back up. Neither Kain nor the Hylden Lord can compete with even that.

Disagree? Provide feats.

So you want to ignore the game yet again because you are wrong and it crushes your case. It lighted up when it saved him and faded when it could not due to zant abandoning him.

YouTube video

YouTube video

Could you please show me where in either of these videos something decidedly non-lethal happens to Ganondorf? Specifically, the parts where Midna forcibly removes Ganondorf from Zelda and causes his particles to disperse everywhere, Ganondorf transforming into Beast Ganon, or where Beast Ganon starts disintegrating via fire. None of which feature the Triforce lighting up.

But here:
YouTube video

1:31, Right there, do you see Ganondorf's Triforce od Power is lighting up and he is neither dying nor using any power? And then it faded, and he isn't dead.

Oh relax I like the guy but compared to the Hylden Lord o Kain he's a failure, aka a bum. I like the bum but he has no staying power and loses to whatever hero he faces off against with however little time the hero has.

Ganondorf has no staying power? Ganondorf has no staying power? I have seriously have trouble believing that you've played any Zelda games when you say things like that.

Anyway, can you prove he loses to just any hero? You're obviously not talking about Link, so really, who else has beaten Ganondorf besides, oh, the Mirror of Twilight PIS device? Ganondorf, based on feats, is much more powerful than both the Hylden Lord and Kain. Niether one has the staying power that he does. He's portrayed as more powerful, too.

Disagree? Provide feats.

It failed because zant his avatar abandoned him. I also think it cannot come back from everything and being impaled is nothing compared to having your heart ripped out.

Zant is dead. Please explain to me how he still affects Ganondorf. As for him: stabbed through the heart, reduced to particles, body destroyed, shot with Light Arrows > heart ripped out. Kain, as well as the Hylden Lord, has no durability or staying power compared to Ganondorf.

Disagree? Provide feats.

The video won't work what happens in it again?

You could at least follow the url it leaves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSNWV0Yg5M4&feature=player_embedded

5:40 and after: "What binds him is a different magic than what transformed him when he first entered the twilight. It is an evil power. Our world is one of balance...Just as there is light to drive away darkness, so, too, is there benevolence to banish evil. Head for the sacred grove that lies deep within the lands gaurded by the spirit Faron. There you will find the blade of evil's bane that was crafted by the wisdom of the ancient Sages...The Master Sword. The Master Sword is a sacred blade that evil can never touch. Evil cloaks tou like a dark veil...and that blade is the only thing that can cleave it."

Just tell me.

"Link...Hero sent by the goddesses...Like you, I have been granted special powers by the goddesses..."

Talk to the zelda people they put zant in there and soon as he moved his head dorf died. I didn't put zant in it at the end they did.

So you don't know what it means? Zant says that Ganondorf can ressurect him. Maybe Ganondorf was trying to bring him back? Maybe Zant was refusing to be brought back? It's all speculation, and you have nothing to say Zant killed him. But you're forgetting that the last time Ganondorf was stabbed, it barely affected him when he had the Triforce of Power. What you're saying is that it was a combination of Zant and the Master Sword to put him down, after several other battles. There isn't enough information to say what happened. Either way, the Hylden Lord can't replicate either situation, so he isn't taking Ganondorf down.

No, they don't. The murals were there to get raziel and Kain to fight. You aren't even aware of their purpose at all. You seem rather confused with this series and getting desperate.

Proof? You're not giving me anything but your word, which you have repeatedly demonstrated to be unreliable at best. You need evidence of this.

The actual dialogue and Raziel had free will so nothing was written in destiny as he had the power to do what he wanted. I love pwning you every step of the way.

And Raziel was the only one, but he had to work to disobey history. This doesn't change the fact that Kain was destined to die. The thing about you is that you tend to pwn yourself. Your quote (just give a damn link) does not even refute my point, that Kain would have died if not for Raziel choosing not to kill him. If Raziel had chosen to kill Kain, he would have died.

Raziel had a choice and was always Kain's sword his right hand so to speak as I put up through his own words. Kain could have been killed by Raziel but tearing out his heart wasn't enough.

Kain convinced Raziel not to kill him in the other instance, or do you not understand your own subject material? At that time Kain was destined to die. Demon Realm prevented Kain from dying. This doesn't matter since neither Kain nor Raziel are in this thread.

Dorf used his own plot device the power triforce so it's amusing that they are not allowed after they easily beat him without the triforce of power. Not that he gets one they think quickly an duse the mirror and it defeats him. Both had plot devices and dorf still lost.

I could say it's amusing that Kain lost to the Hylden Lord with the Soul Reaver. Of, course, you'll bring up that Kain came back and killed the Hylden Lord. Then I'll bring up that Ganondorf had the Mirror destroyed. Regardless, the Triforce of Power is not a plot device. A Plot device is something that makes the plot possible. If the Mirror wasn't there, Ganondorf probably would have left to take over Hyrule. And again you're ignoring the fact that Ganondorf was under PIS, and not trying to kill them. And again, you're ignoring the fact that it's a flashback and isn't Ganondorf as he is now.

Hylden Lord kills him with the reaver he doesn't need to banish him.

Ganondorf's durability is too high for just the reaver to kill him. On the other hand, the Hylden Lord's durability is nonexistant and he would be killed instantly by the Sage's sword.

Yes, he tricked a broken army save Link. Link showed up and defeated him and we already know the hyrulian army was weak and ineffective. Kain doesn't need to hide out he has ruled for thousands of years while dorf doesn't even seem fit to rule for more than a week.

You know who broke the army in the first place? Kain and the Hylden Lord don't have anyone like Link coming after them, so it's understandable that they could survive. Ganondorf did more damage in a week than Kain and the Hylden Lord combined over a thousand years.

Dorf to me is stupid in this game anyways.

To you. Your opinion means nothing to the facts.

Yes, it's a win. The triforce can also fail him and doesn't make him invincible. Sages whooped him as did Link.

Not a real win, since he came back. The Triforce only failed because the Master Sword can cleave it. The Hylden Lord can't cleave it. Ganondorf wasn't trying to kill the Sages due to PIS, as he was laughing too hard. He will try to kill the Hylden Lord, and he will succeed.

He was never in any real danger save the two times.

I have posted videos that prove you wrong here.

I put up enough of the interview already. I backed my case.

You didn't link it, so you still have not backed anything.

Raziel tk's him into the portal and we assume he's dead until he comes to later after Raziel is killed by a possess janos. Kain finishes the game.

I asked you to explain why the portal didn't appear until Kain's heart was removed. You haven't done this.

Yes, it ensures their immortality as they live there. if you step on there you aren't unkillable. Kain kills the hylden lord and he's from the demon realm. If what you are saying is true he'd die soon as he came back to nosgoth. I mean it doesn't even make sense any which way you look at it.

No, Kain absorbed his soul with the Soul Reaver. He didn't kill him, as such, so you've basically got nothing. As well, the Demon Realm could have kept him alive until he could recover. Vampires have survived without vital organs before, see Magnus.

I am copy and pasting an interview where she explains it.

Yet I asked for a link, which you still have not given me. Are you trying to troll me or something?

I have provided proof.

Links, videos, and scans. These are proof. "I swear this is proof, even though I've got none of those," is not proof.

There's a dimensional rift in the room and he tk's him into it.

YouTube video

Mind showing me where it is before Kain's heart is removed? Don't bother, I checked. The portal doesn't appear until Raziel shoves his claw into Kain at 8:45. That's definitive.

Originally posted by The Scenario
It lights up when he talks. It doesn't light up when his body is destroyed. Your argument is invalid.

Did you watch the video? Zelda specifically states that the Master Sword can cleave evil power, and that's all Ganondorf is. Did you watch the second video? The Master Sword removed the evil power from Link's body, it can also remove the evil power from Ganondorf's body. Can you prove that Ganondorf didn't get weaker? He seemed to be suffering after being stabbed through the heart, hit by his own magic, removed from Zelda's body via Fused Shadows + Triforce of Wisdom, being destroyed in his Beast Ganon body, being pelted with Light Arrows, and then standing right back up. Neither Kain nor the Hylden Lord can compete with even that.

Disagree? Provide feats.

YouTube video

YouTube video

Could you please show me where in either of these videos something decidedly non-lethal happens to Ganondorf? Specifically, the parts where Midna forcibly removes Ganondorf from Zelda and causes his particles to disperse everywhere, Ganondorf transforming into Beast Ganon, or where Beast Ganon starts disintegrating via fire. None of which feature the Triforce lighting up.

But here:
YouTube video

1:31, Right there, do you see Ganondorf's Triforce od Power is lighting up and he is neither dying nor using any power? And then it faded, and he isn't dead.

Ganondorf has no staying power? Ganondorf has no staying power? I have seriously have trouble believing that you've played any Zelda games when you say things like that.

Anyway, can you prove he loses to just any hero? You're obviously not talking about Link, so really, who else has beaten Ganondorf besides, oh, the Mirror of Twilight PIS device? Ganondorf, based on feats, is much more powerful than both the Hylden Lord and Kain. Niether one has the staying power that he does. He's portrayed as more powerful, too.

Disagree? Provide feats.

Zant is dead. Please explain to me how he still affects Ganondorf. As for him: stabbed through the heart, reduced to particles, body destroyed, shot with Light Arrows > heart ripped out. Kain, as well as the Hylden Lord, has no durability or staying power compared to Ganondorf.

Disagree? Provide feats.

You could at least follow the url it leaves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSNWV0Yg5M4&feature=player_embedded

5:40 and after: "What binds him is a different magic than what transformed him when he first entered the twilight. It is an evil power. Our world is one of balance...Just as there is light to drive away darkness, so, too, is there benevolence to banish evil. Head for the sacred grove that lies deep within the lands gaurded by the spirit Faron. There you will find the blade of evil's bane that was crafted by the wisdom of the ancient Sages...The Master Sword. The Master Sword is a sacred blade that evil can never touch. Evil cloaks tou like a dark veil...and that blade is the only thing that can cleave it."

"Link...Hero sent by the goddesses...Like you, I have been granted special powers by the goddesses..."

So you don't know what it means? Zant says that Ganondorf can ressurect him. Maybe Ganondorf was trying to bring him back? Maybe Zant was refusing to be brought back? It's all speculation, and you have nothing to say Zant killed him. But you're forgetting that the last time Ganondorf was stabbed, it barely affected him when he had the Triforce of Power. What you're saying is that it was a combination of Zant and the Master Sword to put him down, after several other battles. There isn't enough information to say what happened. Either way, the Hylden Lord can't replicate either situation, so he isn't taking Ganondorf down.

Proof? You're not giving me anything but your word, which you have repeatedly demonstrated to be unreliable at best. You need evidence of this.

And Raziel was the only one, but he had to work to disobey history. This doesn't change the fact that Kain was destined to die. The thing about you is that you tend to pwn yourself. Your quote (just give a damn link) does not even refute my point, that Kain would have died if not for Raziel choosing not to kill him. If Raziel had chosen to kill Kain, he would have died.

Kain convinced Raziel not to kill him in the other instance, or do you not understand your own subject material? At that time Kain was destined to die. Demon Realm prevented Kain from dying. This doesn't matter since neither Kain nor Raziel are in this thread.

I could say it's amusing that Kain lost to the Hylden Lord with the Soul Reaver. Of, course, you'll bring up that Kain came back and killed the Hylden Lord. Then I'll bring up that Ganondorf had the Mirror destroyed. Regardless, the Triforce of Power is not a plot device. A Plot device is something that makes the plot possible. If the Mirror wasn't there, Ganondorf probably would have left to take over Hyrule. And again you're ignoring the fact that Ganondorf was under PIS, and not trying to kill them. And again, you're ignoring the fact that it's a flashback and isn't Ganondorf as he is now.

Ganondorf's durability is too high for just the reaver to kill him. On the other hand, the Hylden Lord's durability is nonexistant and he would be killed instantly by the Sage's sword.

You know who broke the army in the first place? Kain and the Hylden Lord don't have anyone like Link coming after them, so it's understandable that they could survive. Ganondorf did more damage in a week than Kain and the Hylden Lord combined over a thousand years.

To you. Your opinion means nothing to the facts.

Not a real win, since he came back. The Triforce only failed because the Master Sword can cleave it. The Hylden Lord can't cleave it. Ganondorf wasn't trying to kill the Sages due to PIS, as he was laughing too hard. He will try to kill the Hylden Lord, and he will succeed.

I have posted videos that prove you wrong here.

You didn't link it, so you still have not backed anything.

Dorf was weaker due to taking damage. That's the reason he grew weaker like any character if you damage them enough they die. Laughs.

That's nonlethal due to the fact he doesn't need the power to save him ala sage battle or against Link.

He shows them and accesses it which he can. How don't you get it?

Dorf doesn't have staying power he gets killed in this one. This is an alternate dorf as well due to his ignorance of loz. It seems there is always a dorf around to fill the role of evil but he always loses and we see different versions vs. different versios of link. Only one Kain and only one Hylden Lord and both their reigns last far longer than any dorf has ever reigned.

You're right it is speculation but either way him rejecting him seems obvious it sealed his fate.

I have posted evidence to the contrary while you still seem confused about the entire history and roles of these characters.

Raziel went after him later on and tried killing him. He failed. He had the chance and attempted while Kain held back and still failed. Kain survived because he's very hard to kill and most cannot survive without their hearts in their chests.

Ah, ok.

Raziel tried to kill Kain and Raziel has a choice about what to do and had his opportunity. You refusing to accept that he did try to kill him and failed shows your ignorance. He tried and guess what it didn't work. Kain was destined to the the scion of balance so Kain's destiny was never death only if Raziel chose to do so and he even tried yet couldn't pull it off. Go Kain.

Kain killed demons in the demon realm. What are you talking about? I put up the interview where she says flat out he survived because he's the scion not the demon realm. he left the demon realm and killed demons there so it doesn't make you unkillable plus he left the demon realm and survived. it didn't heal his wounds Raziel did later. Get a clue. You irritate me with your ignorance and fanboyism.

I see you don't understand what a plot device is. The power triforce makes the plot possible. dorf lost to one and came back and got killed. Kain triumphed whereas Dorf died reigning a few days.

Dorf can be pierced by any sword that hits him. Both swords impaled him and Hylden Lord would toss him around with his superior strength. You don't even know what durability means.

It is a real win. You don't have to kill someone to win they beat him and he came back later and didn't kill them. He never beat the sages. Laughs.

The videos back me up.

I posted enough of it deny it all you want.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I asked you to explain why the portal didn't appear until Kain's heart was removed. You haven't done this.

No, Kain absorbed his soul with the Soul Reaver. He didn't kill him, as such, so you've basically got nothing. As well, the Demon Realm could have kept him alive until he could recover. Vampires have survived without vital organs before, see Magnus.

Yet I asked for a link, which you still have not given me. Are you trying to troll me or something?

Links, videos, and scans. These are proof. "I swear this is proof, even though I've got none of those," is not proof.

YouTube video

Mind showing me where it is before Kain's heart is removed? Don't bother, I checked. The portal doesn't appear until Raziel shoves his claw into Kain at 8:45. That's definitive.

He killed him with his soulreaver. I mean you shouldn't ever play these games you really shouldn't.

Did Magnus survive without a heart?

I did enough already.

It was proof are you saying I lied about what it is I posted?

So you're saying Kain's destiny assues he cannot be killed? I guess you are arguing dorf can't kill kain either. Nicely done but on topic Hylden Lord wins.

Stronger, smarter, more powerful, better weapon, and more durable.

A good idea, but can you prove it? All you have is that he beat Kain by throwing an army at him. See, 'cause what you have here is an idea that this Hylden lord totally outclasses Ganon, when in fact it is quite the opposite.

he cant win

Who can't win?

Originally posted by quanchi112
It lite up when he was near death both times and faded when he died.

You mean it lights up? It also lights up when he talks, and and doesn't light up when he transforms or revives.

Dorf was weaker due to taking damage. That's the reason he grew weaker like any character if you damage them enough they die. Laughs.

What's with the "laughs"? Anyway, neither Kain nor the Hylden Lord displays a level of damage soak even near Ganondorf, so he is far superior in that regard. The Hylden Lord will have to weaken him with damage, which Ganondorf can take a whole lot better than he can. Whereas the Hylden Lord goes down with one stab.

That's nonlethal due to the fact he doesn't need the power to save him ala sage battle or against Link.

You're working under a false pretense. You seem to think that the Triforce of Power needs to light up when it used, when this is not true. Therefore, you think any time the Triforce doesn't light up then it is not being used, which is also false. If you understood how the Triforce worked, you'd know that it can be used without lighting, and that is happening here. Ganon's body disintegrates, and you think this is non lethal simply because the Triforce didn't light up. Despite what you seem to think, disintegration is a decidely lethal (the word "lethal" means "going to kill you" if you're confused) since everything is destroyed, heart included.

He shows them and accesses it which he can. How don't you get it?

Accesses it to do what? He isn't dying or using any power. How don't you get it?

Dorf doesn't have staying power he gets killed in this one. This is an alternate dorf as well due to his ignorance of loz. It seems there is always a dorf around to fill the role of evil but he always loses and we see different versions vs. different versios of link. Only one Kain and only one Hylden Lord and both their reigns last far longer than any dorf has ever reigned.

"Staying power" is defined as being able to get back up after a beating, or keep going despite horrific injuries. It is not defined as how long you rule an area. Ganondorf has much more staying power than the Hylden Lord, who's tolerance to injuries is non existent. Kain has some staying power, but not enough to compete with Ganondorf.

You're right it is speculation but either way him rejecting him seems obvious it sealed his fate.

Which doesn't matter, since the Hylden Lord can't do it.

I have posted evidence to the contrary while you still seem confused about the entire history and roles of these characters.

You have posted no evidence. Give me a link, video, or scan. Those are evidence, your word is not.

Raziel went after him later on and tried killing him. He failed. He had the chance and attempted while Kain held back and still failed. Kain survived because he's very hard to kill and most cannot survive without their hearts in their chests.

Because his nature as the Scion of Balance opened a portal to save him. Raziel would have killed him earlier, but decided not to because of his free will. When he removed Kain's heart, it wasn't fated to happen, so fate saved Kain.

Raziel tried to kill Kain and Raziel has a choice about what to do and had his opportunity. You refusing to accept that he did try to kill him and failed shows your ignorance. He tried and guess what it didn't work. Kain was destined to the the scion of balance so Kain's destiny was never death only if Raziel chose to do so and he even tried yet couldn't pull it off. Go Kain.

Kain was fated to die earlier. Raziel changed it with a Reaver Paradox. Kain was not fated to die when his heart was removed. It didn't work because Raziel didn't initiate a Reaver Paradox to change anything. Raziel didn't want to kill Kain, either; he just needed the Heart of Darkness. You can see that he didn't want to in how he spoke to Moebius.

Kain killed demons in the demon realm. What are you talking about? I put up the interview where she says flat out he survived because he's the scion not the demon realm. he left the demon realm and killed demons there so it doesn't make you unkillable plus he left the demon realm and survived. it didn't heal his wounds Raziel did later. Get a clue. You irritate me with your ignorance and fanboyism.

Prove the demons were killed. She says (though you haven't given a link) it was his nature as the Scion of Balance. She didn't say that it wasn't the Demon Realm. Since the portal doesn't open until Kain begins dying, it's obvious that the portal opened in order to save him. The forces of Balance opened it. Also, do you remember how the Spirit Forge began calling all the guardians to itself? Looks like that had a hand in it as well.

I see you don't understand what a plot device is. The power triforce makes the plot possible. dorf lost to one and came back and got killed. Kain triumphed whereas Dorf died reigning a few days.

Actually, it seems you're the one that doesn't know what a plot device is. A plot device is a completely arbitrary object that advances the plot, and is otherwise unimportant. The Triforce of Power is neither arbitrary nor used to advance the plot. And it is important. The Mirror of Twilight is a deux ex machina and is otherwise not particularly useful except for acting as a macguffin later.

The Soul Reaver is not a plot device. The Nexus Stone is. The Triforce of Power is not. The Master Sword and Mirror of Twilight are.

Dorf can be pierced by any sword that hits him. Both swords impaled him and Hylden Lord would toss him around with his superior strength. You don't even know what durability means.

Ganondorf has enough staying power to take the hit much better than the Hylden Lord could. Unless you have evidence proving that the Hylden Lord could take a hit? Does the Hylden Lord even have any strength feats, either?

It is a real win. You don't have to kill someone to win they beat him and he came back later and didn't kill them. He never beat the sages. Laughs.

The Hylden Lord can't BFR Ganondorf, so why does this matter?

The videos back me up.

Explain how.

I posted enough of it deny it all you want.

Why are you so adverse to posting evidence? I have asked you to multiple times, and even told you what I wanted specifically, yet you insist on posting uncredited quotes with nothing to back them. Again, that is not proof. That is an unbacked quote.

Due to the events in the cathedral and the upheaval going on due to the Hylden's influence.

And it only appears after Raziel hits Kain? Looks more like events were adjusted so it happened right when Kain needed it. Coincidence, thy name is Balance.

He killed him with his soulreaver. I mean you shouldn't ever play these games you really shouldn't.

Because I might learn them better than you, presumably. Really, it's quite rude telling someone what they shouldn't play. And yes, Kain killed him with the Soul Reaver. The one that absorbs souls.

Did Magnus survive without a heart?

Yes.

I did enough already.

You did nothing.

It was proof are you saying I lied about what it is I posted?

You did not cite a source. Therefore it is worthless.

o you're saying Kain's destiny assues he cannot be killed? I guess you are arguing dorf can't kill kain either. Nicely done but on topic Hylden Lord wins.

Yeah, I guess Kain's destiny prevents him from dying via coincidences, but that wouldn't stop Ganondorf from completely owning him. Please provide evidence for why you think the Hylden Lord wins.

Stronger, smarter, more powerful, better weapon, and more durable.

Prove any of this please, and cite a source when you do. Based on feats, Ganondorf is stronger, intelligence is equal, Ganondorf is more powerful, Hylden Lord does indeed have the better weapon, and Ganondorf is more durable.

So does anyone know how Dorf can deal with soul steal? (lawl, rhyme)

Originally posted by Heythere,Honey
So does anyone know how Dorf can deal with soul steal? (lawl, rhyme)

He does it first. 😐

Seriously, soul stealing is nothing to the LoZverse. Simple townspeople can capture souls. They even buy and sell souls.

Originally posted by Heythere,Honey
So does anyone know how Dorf can deal with soul steal? (lawl, rhyme)

He can move around in twilight without getting his soul removed, so he has some resistence.

Edit: And Wolf Link's bite has been known to steal souls.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
A good idea, but can you prove it? All you have is that he beat Kain by throwing an army at him. See, 'cause what you have here is an idea that this Hylden lord totally outclasses Ganon, when in fact it is quite the opposite.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I've also stated he tossed around Janos like a ragdoll after taking on Kain himself which shows superior strength to that of Dorf who didn't even so much as overpower Link in tp.

Originally posted by The Scenario
You mean it lights up? It also lights up when he talks, and and doesn't light up when he transforms or revives.

What's with the "laughs"? Anyway, neither Kain nor the Hylden Lord displays a level of damage soak even near Ganondorf, so he is far superior in that regard. The Hylden Lord will have to weaken him with damage, which Ganondorf can take a whole lot better than he can. Whereas the Hylden Lord goes down with one stab.

You're working under a false pretense. You seem to think that the Triforce of Power needs to light up when it used, when this is not true. Therefore, you think any time the Triforce doesn't light up then it is not being used, which is also false. If you understood how the Triforce worked, you'd know that it can be used without lighting, and that is happening here. Ganon's body disintegrates, and you think this is non lethal simply because the Triforce didn't light up. Despite what you seem to think, disintegration is a decidely lethal (the word "lethal" means "going to kill you" if you're confused) since everything is destroyed, heart included.

Accesses it to do what? He isn't dying or using any power. How don't you get it?

"Staying power" is defined as being able to get back up after a beating, or keep going despite horrific injuries. It is not defined as how long you rule an area. Ganondorf has much more staying power than the Hylden Lord, who's tolerance to injuries is non existent. Kain has some staying power, but not enough to compete with Ganondorf.

Which doesn't matter, since the Hylden Lord can't do it.

You have posted no evidence. Give me a link, video, or scan. Those are evidence, your word is not.

Because his nature as the Scion of Balance opened a portal to save him. Raziel would have killed him earlier, but decided not to because of his free will. When he removed Kain's heart, it wasn't fated to happen, so fate saved Kain.

Kain was fated to die earlier. Raziel changed it with a Reaver Paradox. Kain was not fated to die when his heart was removed. It didn't work because Raziel didn't initiate a Reaver Paradox to change anything. Raziel didn't want to kill Kain, either; he just needed the Heart of Darkness. You can see that he didn't want to in how he spoke to Moebius.

Prove the demons were killed. She says (though you haven't given a link) it was his nature as the Scion of Balance. She didn't say that it wasn't the Demon Realm. Since the portal doesn't open until Kain begins dying, it's obvious that the portal opened in order to save him. The forces of Balance opened it. Also, do you remember how the Spirit Forge began calling all the guardians to itself? Looks like that had a hand in it as well.

Actually, it seems you're the one that doesn't know what a plot device is. A plot device is a completely arbitrary object that advances the plot, and is otherwise unimportant. The Triforce of Power is neither arbitrary nor used to advance the plot. And it is important. The Mirror of Twilight is a deux ex machina and is otherwise not particularly useful except for acting as a macguffin later.

The Soul Reaver is not a plot device. The Nexus Stone is. The Triforce of Power is not. The Master Sword and Mirror of Twilight are.

Ganondorf has enough staying power to take the hit much better than the Hylden Lord could. Unless you have evidence proving that the Hylden Lord could take a hit? Does the Hylden Lord even have any strength feats, either?

The Hylden Lord can't BFR Ganondorf, so why does this matter?

Explain how.

Why are you so adverse to posting evidence? I have asked you to multiple times, and even told you what I wanted specifically, yet you insist on posting uncredited quotes with nothing to back them. Again, that is not proof. That is an unbacked quote.

And it only appears after Raziel hits Kain? Looks more like events were adjusted so it happened right when Kain needed it. Coincidence, thy name is Balance.

Because I might learn them better than you, presumably. Really, it's quite rude telling someone what they shouldn't play. And yes, Kain killed him with the Soul Reaver. The one that absorbs souls.

Yes.

You did nothing.

You did not cite a source. Therefore it is worthless.

Yeah, I guess Kain's destiny prevents him from dying via coincidences, but that wouldn't stop Ganondorf from completely owning him. Please provide evidence for why you think the Hylden Lord wins.

Prove any of this please, and cite a source when you do. Based on feats, Ganondorf is stronger, intelligence is equal, Ganondorf is more powerful, Hylden Lord does indeed have the better weapon, and Ganondorf is more durable.

Gameplay or boss fights isn't comparable to damage soak. Link stabs him in the heart he dies but in the game he doesn't do so until you defeat the various boss fights not how it goes on a forum fight.

In this game it lite up when he used it or accessed it. That's exactly how it works.

I do get it he can still access it without having to die but when he is fatally wounded he needs to in order to preserve his life.

Both these two characters have a lot more staying power than someone who loses to a character with a few weeks of training and no superhuman abilities at all. Both characters would maul Dorf.

Hylden Lord can kill him with his sword so it is relevant.

Not my fault you aren't aware of their history it is yours.

This theory of yours has no backing nor does it even make any sense. Kain survived because he was the scion and has killed in the demon realm so it makes no sense at all.

Raziel had free will so fate didn't matter to him. Think. He ripped out his heart and felt Kain was dead but this wasn't enough to kill Kain. It fooled Moebius and the eg.

She answered the question why would she leave out the demon realm part if that kept him alive? he also left there immediately so why would he remain alive?

You see him destroy the demons in there.

We also see him destroy hylden who are from the demon realm as does he kill the Hylden Lord, genius. Hahahahaha, I guess Hylden Lord wins because he's unkillable according to you.

Yes, it does seem you have no idea what a plot device is which is not entirely shocking since you you get into prolonged debates over characters you know little to nothing on yet argue till your blue in the face against anyways. Both or all items do whatever the plot requires. The power triforce prolongs his life because it needs to due to the injuries he has sustained.

I have already told you about him manhandling an ancient vampire like a child yet you want to act as if he isn't strong?

Really?

I posted the interview multiple times you are just being hardheaded.

Where does it state Kain was alive due to him being in the demon realm?

I doubt it. You took the zelda games out of context and don't understand how these characters are portrayed so I can only imagine how you'd misinterpret the lok games.

Do you know he was in the eternal prison and did his heart make him the vampire he was?

I won the debate.

Believe what you want I hardly care.

I already have and Dorf's destiny is to always lose against every hero he faces basically.

I have used various examples throughout this thread. Soulreaver has killed many, hurt eg, killed Hylden Lord, William the Just, etc.

This guy is smarter as he broke apart the guardians and weakened the realm which took a lot of planning to even break the plane then beat Kain and held rule for a few hundred years while Dorf lost to a kid with little training and hardly any help against an entire army against him.