Originally posted by Gideon
The fact that Lucas said Windu "overpowered" Palpatine is not in dispute, because Palpatine did not have to be fighting at full lethal capacity in order for Windu to technically overpower him.
You guys are just debating on speculation right now, right? If so, whats the point? Nobody can be proved right or wrong.
Originally posted by Gideon
The fact that Lucas said Windu "overpowered" Palpatine is not in dispute, because Palpatine did not have to be fighting at full lethal capacity in order for Windu to technically overpower him.
If a grown man is wrestling w/ one of his kids, and allows them to pin him or whatever, one is not to say that he was "overpowered" by them, correct?! Of course not!
Gideon
Hence how the official databank mentions that "with his defenses stripped, Windu was easily overpowered by Chancellor Palpatine" -- when Sidious attacked him with Force lightning. The word 'overpower' is used, even though it was obvious that Windu wasn't even making an attempt to defend himself.
^ I mentioned this in an earlier thread in the EU section. The official databank on the Star Wars website mentions that "with his defenses stripped, Windu was easily overpowered by Chancellor Palpatine", referring to the scene in which Windu's sword arm was amputated by Skywalker and, while he is screaming in agony, Palpatine kills him.
Yet the word "overpower" is still used by a canon source to describe that situation, even when Windu was too overcome by pain to even attempt to defend himself.
Palpatine need not have been fighting his hardest or going "all out" on Windu in order to have been overpowered.
Originally posted by Gideon
^ Uhh, where did he try to hold Palpatine's lightning off?
Oh gee, wut da hell wuz I thnkin? Mace musta just said fuk it, right? Yes, he couldn't block it with his stub, but he wasn't "holding back" either, as was Sidious (per yer word). You know damn well that this is a completely different situation, and to compare the two is... well... either a game, or outright foolishness. One can't be "overpowered" if he/she/it is holding back. However, Sidious was indeed, "overpowered" (per GL). I'll be back later, as I have sum bbq to look after. Yummmm.
@ gid.
GL himself had no problem saying that sidious was faking his state of weakness in front of anakin to help lure him in. so surely if GL also intended sidious to be holding back during the duel portion of the battle, he would have said so. instead he chose to say that mace "overpowered" him... your opinion that sidious was holding back when he was '"overpowered" CANNOT be proven. not at all. so stop trying to belittle mace's feat.
now im sure youll try to say something cheeky and witty to try and snake your way around those facts, but in the end all you have is your baseless opinion. and that just wont hold up my dear boy.
Originally posted by Jinsoku TakaiIt does work. Palpatine was overpowered, as in his defenses, but that does not mean he was trying to kill Mace. IMO Palpatine was not trying to actually kill Mace right away, or why else would he call Anakin back to the office?
Arm gone or not, he was STILL trying his damnedest to hold him off, he was simply overpowered. You're trying to compare this with a situation in which Sidious was supposedly pulling his punches with Windu. Doesn't work here.
I guess you can argue that he called Anakin back because he was unsure if he was able to beat Mace. Then again Palpatine has shown that when he is unsure, he does not take a risk and tries to avoid the fight (like with Yoda).
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It does work. Palpatine was overpowered, as in his defenses, but that does not mean he was trying to kill Mace. IMO Palpatine was not trying to actually kill Mace right away, or why else would he call Anakin back to the office?
I highlighted the important part. Can't be proven one way or the other.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It does work. Palpatine was overpowered, as in his defenses, but that does not mean he was trying to kill Mace. IMO Palpatine was not trying to actually kill Mace right away, or why else would he call Anakin back to the office?I guess you can argue that he called Anakin back because he was unsure if he was able to beat Mace. Then again Palpatine has shown that when he is unsure, he does not take a risk and tries to avoid the fight (like with Yoda).
Your opinion means nothing.
o·ver·pow·er (ōˌvər-pouˈər)
1. To overcome or vanquish by superior force; subdue.
2. To affect so strongly as to make helpless or ineffective; overwhelm.
Anyhow, the notion that Sidious was in some way holding back in his duel against Mace is borderline laughable, imo. Opinions that cannot be proven by any canonical sources are just that, opinions. Don't try to pass them off as factual evidence.
Sidious was trying to kill Mace but it doesn't mean he was going all out because I don't think he believed it to be a life or death situation, which is why he was "overpowered" but not defeated. The term defeated would be more "complete" than overpowered. Sidious goes all out I think only twice; once against Yoda and once against Luke, the two times he thought there was reasonable danger.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefingtonI see where you are coming from but I can't agree. Neither the film or the novel depicted Sidious holding back during the lightsaber fight in the slightest. There is absolutely no reason to think that Stover or Lucas wouldn't have included such pertinent information in the film or novel, if that were really the case.
Sidious was trying to kill Mace but it doesn't mean he was going all out because I don't think he believed it to be a life or death situation, which is why he was "overpowered" but not defeated. The term defeated would be more "complete" than overpowered. Sidious goes all out I think only twice; once against Yoda and once against Luke, the two times he thought there was reasonable danger.
Based on what I saw on screen, and read: Mace legitimately defeated Sidious (who didn't appear to be holding back) in their saber fight. It was only when Anakin got there that Sidious (who was already disarmed and downed) began faking being weak.
Originally posted by Merlyn
I see where you are coming from but I can't agree. Neither the film or the novel depicted Sidious holding back during the lightsaber fight in the slightest. There is absolutely no reason to think that Stover or Lucas wouldn't have included such pertinent information in the film or novel, if that were really the case.Based on what I saw on screen, and read: Mace legitimately defeated Sidious (who didn't appear to be holding back) in their saber fight. It was only when Anakin got there that Sidious (who was already disarmed and downed) began faking being weak.
I agree with this.
You are right, my opinion means nothing. Your opinion also means nothing. And this sounds an awful lot like an opinion.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Alright truejedi: After carefully re-reading the RotS novelization version of the battle between Mace Windu and Darth Sidious, I have to say that I can see where you're coming from in regards to your stance on the matter. However, with that being said, it appears that Mace - via Shatterpoint - traces the fautline back to Anakin standing in the doorway (apparently frozen in fear). Mace (sensing this fear, thinking it to be Sids'😉 directs the battle to the window ledge. Mace then uses this fear against Sids to, well, slow him down, therefore allowing him the opportunity to disarm Sids. Either way, whether it was Anakin's fear or Sidious' that Mace was sensing, it would seem that Shatterpoint is what played the key role at this point. In the end, the scene leaves some room for interpretation (bad writing maybe?). Let me know what you think.
BTW, why would you ask someone what they THINK, if opinions mean nothing to you?
Quit being a smartass.
Originally posted by Merlyn
I see where you are coming from but I can't agree. Neither the film or the novel depicted Sidious holding back during the lightsaber fight in the slightest. There is absolutely no reason to think that Stover or Lucas wouldn't have included such pertinent information in the film or novel, if that were really the case.
Based on what I saw on screen, and read: Mace legitimately defeated Sidious (who didn't appear to be holding back) in their saber fight. It was only when Anakin got there that Sidious (who was already disarmed and downed) began faking being weak. [/B]
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The only thing in question was regarding Palpatine going all out, which he most certainly wasn't.
Why can you be so certain of that when there isn't any proof of it? You don't think Mace was pressing his attack so hard with sabers that Sidious knew it would have been a fatal mistake to drop his guard to utilize the force?