Kas'im vs Anakin and Windu

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Why can you be so certain of that when there isn't any proof of it? You don't think Mace was pressing his attack so hard with sabers that Sidious knew it would have been a fatal mistake to drop his guard to utilize the force? [/B]

How can I be so certain? Because if Sidious was going all out, Mace wouldn't have had survived. Vaapad and Shatterpoint only go so far. It's plainly obvious that Sidious underestimated Windu and paid the price for it. But I don't think that he felt death approaching just yet. I think he definitely felt that when he fought Yoda or Luke and it was pretty obvious that he went all out against those two.

DS is begging the question.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
DS is begging the question.

Not exactly but ok. I guess you missed all those "deductions" to desperately come up with some kind of fallacy? I understand.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
How can I be so certain? Because if Sidious was going all out, Mace wouldn't have had survived. Vaapad and Shatterpoint only go so far. It's plainly obvious that Sidious underestimated Windu and paid the price for it. But I don't think that he felt death approaching just yet. I think he definitely felt that when he fought Yoda or Luke and it was pretty obvious that he went all out against those two.

Claim: Sidious was not going all out on Mace Windu in their battle during RotS (the one where Sidious was put on his ass and then suffered severe facial scarring).
Evidence: If Sidious was going all out, Mace wouldn't have had survived.

Claim: Sidious was not going all out and then got put on his ass.
Evidence: If Sidious had been going all out Mace would not have put Sidious on his ass.

Claim: Mace defeated Sidious because Sidious was holding back.
Evidence: Mace could not have defeated Sidious if Sidious had not been holding back.

Textbook.

Oh, and your "deductions?" "Vaapad and Shatterpoint only go so far" is a claim, not a deduction. "It's plainly obvious" is a claim, not a deduction. The key phrase in that whole post was "I think."

You are the Most Helpful Member, Red Nemesis.

all this speculation is very interesting, but then it butts up against the fact that even Mace's deduction about the fear coming from Anakin is ALSO non-canon since Anakin was NOT in the room during the saber portion of their fight.

To be completely honest, almost that entire sequence is non-canon. The dialogue is wrong, the placement of Anakin in the room the entire time is wrong. Anakin's entrance into the room (also accompanied by dialogue in the ROTS novelization) is also completely non-canon. In fact, from the very beginning, the part about the recording, which was then cut off is also wrong.

Here is the clip:

See how much of this matches with the novelization. Not much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKiq_xjrB4U

anakin enters afterwards, and non of the diologue from the book actually takes place. Its all completely non-canon really.

So what we are left with is GL telling us that Mace overpowered SIdious, and we have Mace kicking Sidious in the face. Sidious can't fake that. Talk about making sense, in this case, it makes much more sense to take it at face value than to speculate your wet dreams.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Claim: Sidious was not going all out on Mace Windu in their battle during RotS (the one where Sidious was put on his ass and then suffered severe facial scarring).
Evidence: If Sidious was going all out, Mace wouldn't have had survived.

Or more appropriately, the evidence would be Palpatine's fight against Luke or Yoda, where he was using his force abilities. In his fight against Mace, he briefly used force lightning at the end.
Ding! One for me!

Claim: Sidious was not going all out and then got put on his ass.
Evidence: If Sidious had been going all out Mace would not have put Sidious on his ass.

Claim: Mace defeated Sidious because Sidious was holding back.
Evidence: Mace could not have defeated Sidious if Sidious had not been holding back.

So what we are left with is GL telling us that Mace overpowered SIdious, and we have Mace kicking Sidious in the face. Sidious can't fake that. Talk about making sense, in this case, it makes much more sense to take it at face value than to speculate your wet dreams. [/B]

Don't think anybody can claim Sidious faked anything in that fight.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Don't think anybody can claim Sidious faked anything in that fight.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Or more appropriately, the evidence would be Palpatine's fight against Luke or Yoda, where he was using his force abilities. In his fight against Mace, he briefly used force lightning at the end.
Ding! One for me!

If you were a expert archer, and there was someone slashing at you with a sword, within distance, would you rather defend yourself with your own sword, or try and shoot him with your bow and leave yourself vulnerable in the process?

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
If you were a expert archer, and there was someone slashing at you with a sword, within distance, would you rather defend yourself with your own sword, or try and shoot him with your bow and leave yourself vulnerable in the process?

Uh, I'd use one of my many dark side powers to subdue the black man with a saber. It's blatantly obvious that Sidious was overconfident. Here's a hint:

Spoiler:
He went up against 4 Council Members!

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Uh, I'd use one of my many dark side powers to subdue the black man with a saber. It's blatantly obvious that Sidious was overconfident. Here's a hint:

Spoiler:
He went up against 4 Council Members!

So you don't think it at all possible that Sidious just wasn't able to use his dark side powers because Mace was trying to kill him and he never got the opportunity?

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
So you don't think it at all possible that Sidious just wasn't able to use his dark side powers because Mace was trying to kill him and he never got the opportunity?

As a master tactician who brought the attack to 4 council members? No, I don't think it's possible. It's more likely that he thought he could win, and then lost, only to feign weakness when Anakin arrived.

lol, DS is just messing with you VR, he knows as well as you do that it takes concentration to use the force, concetration that Sidious could not afford when he was matched in a lightsaber battle as intense and fast-moving as that one was. We don't see anyone using the force anywhere during a duel unless they get a second to break in the action. Sidious never got that with Mace.

Originally posted by truejedi
lol, DS is just messing with you VR, he knows as well as you do that it takes concentration to use the force, concetration that Sidious could not afford when he was matched in a lightsaber battle as intense and fast-moving as that one was. We don't see anyone using the force anywhere during a duel unless they get a second to break in the action. Sidious never got that with Mace.

Concentration? You mean like the concentration Sidious displayed when he fought for his life against a stronger opponent (yoda)? Concentration that enabled him to gain higher ground and unleash a barrage of offensive maneuvers?

he had to get that higher ground (which the script says he gains because Yoda GAVE it to him (proving once again that Jedi make stupid tactical decisions) He does not unleash his force attack on Yoda while crossing blades. that should be obvious.

Originally posted by truejedi
he had to get that higher ground (which the script says he gains because Yoda GAVE it to him (proving once again that Jedi make stupid tactical decisions) He does not unleash his force attack on Yoda while crossing blades. that should be obvious. [/B]

What the script says is irrelevant. The original script said Yoda disarmed him. Also, you blame stupid tactical errors on the Jedi, while not giving Sidious his due as a master tactician. The same tactics that were absent in his fight against Windu. So either he could do NOTHING against Windu, or he was overconfident and was overpowered before he had a chance to unleash his full arsenal. I'm going with the latter.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What the script says is irrelevant. The original script said Yoda disarmed him. Also, you blame stupid tactical errors on the Jedi, while not giving Sidious his due as a master tactician. The same tactics that were absent in his fight against Windu. So either he could do NOTHING against Windu, or he was overconfident and was overpowered before he had a chance to unleash his full arsenal. I'm going with the latter.

You think you can back that up?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
You think you can back that up?

I uh just did with that post. You're welcome to look at the source itself. Here, I'll help you. It's called Star Wars III: Revenge of the Sith. It's a DVD that's currently in circulation so I think you'll have no problem finding it.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What the script says is irrelevant. The original script said Yoda disarmed him. Also, you blame stupid tactical errors on the Jedi, while not giving Sidious his due as a master tactician. The same tactics that were absent in his fight against Windu. So either he could do NOTHING against Windu, or he was overconfident and was overpowered before he had a chance to unleash his full arsenal. I'm going with the latter.

Well, we obviously can't continue this discussion then.