Nova Prime vs Green Lantern (Kyle)

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Far healthier than what his own arguments were originally inflicting on himself:

biscuits

The entire point of your Valkyrie reference, was for you to build an argument that characters can not make use of a skill set, by simply extracting experience. Emphasizing that Kyle makeing use of Oblivion’s feat is simply unfathomable. Even if the knowledge is retained from their own psyche. This lets me know two things;
[list=a]
[*] You don’t read enough comics, given accruing skill sets in such a manner is routinely done by Telepaths.
[*] You choose to be blindly ignorant (because we know you do read more then enough comics), for the sake of preserving a fumbling argument.
[/list]

Not content with the fact that you exaggerated the Valkyrie ordeal, because apparently getting one free shot at Gamora, and hip tossing Moondragon spells awesome fighting skillz. You still wish to save face, by tossing in that Gamora was handling Thor in the same issue. Hur hur, its not like Thor wasn’t reduced to a complete brute. Your point of reference didn’t amount to much. Tossing a Bald Chic, and face punching Miss Pretty in Green are not clear examples of levels of skill beyond Thor.

I don’t understand why you continue to connect that if Kyle needs to make use of Oblivion’s feat, he needs the Ion energies. Get your facts strait, and stop misleading people. No wait, I will be more direct. STOP LYING .

The feats done by Oblivion where done though Kyle’ power ring. Oblivion didn’t mingle with the Ion energies until sometime after he merged with Kyle. The fact that Kyle subconsciously accessed the Ion energies after the Circle of Fire arc, does not hinder Oblivions feat in the slightest. Oh wait, I know. I guess I need to directly quote the comic to make my point.

The scan clearly states Oblivion was fueled by Kyle’s ring. Not the Ion Energies.

http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/3751/greenlanternsecretfiles.jpg

Oblivion didn’t seek out the Central Batteries energies, until after he merged with Kyle. The comic states a clear time frame, for us to follow.

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2418/greenlantern144v313.jpg
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/8726/greenlantern144v314.jpg

At the very least, if Oblivion did not seek out his Kyle ring, or offered his knowledge so Kyle could make an army of Oblivion with the same ring. Your point of view would be more persuasive, and appealing. Well to bad these debates are not about what you believe in, but what you can prove.

http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/5773/circleoffire230.jpg

Originally posted by "Id"
The entire point of your Valkyrie reference, was for you to build an argument that characters can not make use of a skill set, by simply extracting experience. Emphasizing that Kyle makeing use of Oblivion’s feat is simply unfathomable. Even if the knowledge is retained from their own psyche. This lets me know two things;
[list=a]
[*] You don’t read enough comics, given accruing skill sets in such a manner is routinely done by Telepaths.
[*] You choose to be blindly ignorant (because we know you do read more then enough comics), for the sake of preserving a fumbling argument.
[/list]

Originally posted by "Id"
Not content with the fact that you exaggerated the Valkyrie ordeal, because apparently getting one free shot at Gamora, and hip tossing Moondragon spells awesome fighting skillz. You still wish to save face, by tossing in that Gamora was handling Thor in the same issue. [b]Hur hur, its not like Thor wasn’t reduced to a complete brute. Your point of reference didn’t amount to much. Tossing a Bald Chic, and face punching Miss Pretty in Green are not clear examples of levels of skill beyond Thor. [/b]

Originally posted by "Id"
I don’t understand why you continue to connect that if Kyle needs to make use of Oblivion’s feat, he needs the Ion energies. Get your facts strait, and stop misleading people. No wait, I will be more direct. [b]STOP LYING .

The feats done by Oblivion where done though Kyle’ power ring. Oblivion didn’t mingle with the Ion energies until sometime after he merged with Kyle. The fact that Kyle subconsciously accessed the Ion energies after the Circle of Fire arc, does not hinder Oblivions feat in the slightest. Oh wait, I know. I guess I need to directly quote the comic to make my point.

The scan clearly states Oblivion was fueled by Kyle’s ring. Not the Ion Energies.

http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/3751/greenlanternsecretfiles.jpg[/b]

Kyle didn't absorb Oblivion's power upon Oblivion's defeat. He absorbed the subconscious dark feelings that Oblivion represented These are your own scans:

Originally posted by "Id"
Oblivion didn’t seek out the Central Batteries energies, until after he merged with Kyle. The comic states a clear time frame, for us to follow.
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2418/greenlantern144v313.jpg
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/8726/greenlantern144v314.jpg

So exactly how does he retain Oblivion's level of power? And is thus empowered enough to perform Oblivion's feats? Because he amped his ring? You think that ring ampage = Oblivion's level of power?

Originally posted by "Id"
At the very least, if Oblivion did not seek out his Kyle ring, or offered his knowledge so Kyle could make an army of Oblivion with the same ring. Your point of view would be more persuasive, and appealing. Well to bad these debates are not about what you believe in, but what you can prove.
http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/5773/circleoffire230.jpg

Awesome. You literally are backhandedly implying that Valkyrie's manifestation sucked away all of Thor's melee skills. Moondragon beat Mantis straight up and has embarassed Captain America. Gamora has one-shotted out Rogue, She-Hulk and Thing. Trying to drag down their respective skill levels to avoid having your own absurd rationale thrown back at you isn't working.

No your putting words in my mouth. No one said anything about Valkyrie sucking away Thor’s skill. Trying to drag what down? Anyone with a speck of common sense can see Thor was raging. Disregarding that Gamora did nothing more the sucker punch him, since Thor was taking on a group of enemies.

You can do better, drop this point of reference and look for a better one.

So exactly how does he retain Oblivion's level of power? And is thus empowered enough to perform Oblivion's feats? Because he amped his ring? You think that ring ampage = Oblivion's level of power?

Kyle rejecting Oblivion's offering of knowledge and ultimately repressing him deep inside his subconscious = Kyle absorbing and freely using Oblivion's knowledge? lolwut?

Originally posted by "Id"
God your so desperate to save face.

No your putting words in my mouth. No one said anything about Valkyrie sucking away Thor’s skill. Trying to drag what down? Anyone with a speck of common sense can see Thor was raging. Disregarding that Gamora did nothing more the sucker punch him, since Thor was taking on a group of enemies.

You can do better, drop this point of reference and look for a better one.

A subconscious manifestation of a character's mind doesn't necessarily mean that subconscious manifestation's feats are the same as the character's feats. Look at the example of Void/Sentry. Void feats were always the best feats Sentry had. Nobody here uses Void's feats when it's specifically Sentry put in a character thread because everyone understands that there's a damn distinction between Sentry and "Void Sentry" or just Void. It wasn't until the very end that Void and Sentry started overlapping and Sentry started manifesting the Void's powers/abilities. And you DON'T even have Kyle manifesting Oblivion's level of power or his feats post-Circle of Fire unless they were the formed Ion energies. Energies which Kyle gave up.

Hence why the Valkyrie/Thor situation is more analogous since Thor never once used these Gamora+ skills and Kyle never once used these Oblivion-level feats. Hence why I have a problem with your assertions.

Originally posted by "Id"
Oblivion level of power? Oblivion was seeking Kyle’s level of power as a Green Lantern. That was the point of Oblivion sermon. The untapped possibilities Kyle can do with his ring.

And it became one of the fundamental bases for the classic Ion powerbase. Kyle mostly gave up the classic Ion powerbase. He retained an ampage when he tweaked his ring, but it didn't rise to Oblivion-level power. Accordingly, Kyle didn't retain the Oblivion power. So power-wise, Oblivion's feats aren't Kyle's.

Originally posted by "Id"
Actually he did freely absorb Oblivion. The only factor that keeps Kyle from using Oblivions knowledge is PIS.

Next you'll be telling me Scott has Void's memories/knowledge/powers because he imprisoned a sliver of the Void in his own mind. crackers

Oblivion power did not amount to Kyle’s own. Lack of power is not what keeps Kyle from making claim of Oblivion feats. Knowledge is the only factor left. Something Kyle can easily fix on his own, with no outside assistance. The ring allows Kyle to perform a total recall.

I will concede that Kyle has not replicated Oblivions feats since. But you cant say that remerging with his aspects did not benefit Kyle. The bulk of the more impressive feats as a GL come post Circle of Fire.

Originally posted by "Id"
Oblivion power did not amount to Kyle’s own. Lack of power is not what keeps Kyle from making claim of Oblivion feats. Knowledge is the only factor left. Something Kyle can easily fix on his own, with no outside assistance. The ring allows Kyle to perform a total recall.

I will concede that Kyle has not replicated Oblivions feats since. But you cant say that remerging with his aspects did not benefit Kyle. The bulk of the more impressive feats as a GL come post Circle of Fire.

(i) If he did need Oblivion's level of power, well it's gone now. Has been ever since it merged with Hallax's energies, and was expelled substantially by Kyle when he gave up being classic Ion. And arguing that current Kyle does not even need Oblivion's actual level of power to perform Oblivion's feats would be like arguing that Oblivion didn't require Oblivion's actual level of power to pull off his own feats. This is attenuation.

(ii) Even if you want to assume for the sake of argument that Kyle didn't need/had access to Oblivion-level power, arguing that Kyle could unlock all of Oblivion's independent knowledge ignores Kyle's actual history. Kyle hasn't referred to Oblivion's knowledge post-Circle of Fire. Kyle hasn't manifested Oblivion's feats post-Circle of Fire and particularly post-Sinestro Corps War. Claiming he could perform total recall is dubious to say the least.

(iii) Even if you want to assume for the sake of argument that Kyle didn't need/had access to Oblivion-level power AND could access Oblivion's knowledge freely, arguing that Kyle would unlock this valuable repository of knowledge ignores the resolution of Circle of Fire. Kyle consciously rejected Oblivion's offering of knowledge outright when it was presented to him. Kyle overcame that seduction of power like a responsible man. And Kyle hasn't once hinted at bringing that part of him back out ever since. Furthermore, the method by which Kyle resolved his conflict with Oblivion was by purposefully imprisoning Oblivion deep within his subconscious and getting over him by growing up. Well Kyle sure as hell grew up. Allowing the Oblivion persona to burgeon up to give Kyle an extra kick in abilities would completely compromise Kyle's own resolve by undoing his own conscious rejection of increased power and regressing into that dark persona. This is unintentional character assassination.

Three reasons why I doubt Oblivion's feats mean anything in a hypothetical vs fight involving Kyle. And bottom-line: we both recognize that it didn't amount to much throughout Kyle's own on-panel history. Frankly, the latter part itself in instructive, if not utterly determinative, on the viability of this idea.

We have identified the source Oblivion power. This so much should not even up for debate. He disembodied energy fueled by Kyle’s ring. Lack of power is not a factor. I don’t understand why you continue to bring this up.

Your only standing argument, is if Kyle is willing to do so. Otherwise yes Kyle can pull out a total recall by simply commanding his ring to do so.

Originally posted by "Id"
We have identified the source Oblivion power. This so much should not even up for debate. He disembodied energy fueled by Kyle’s ring. Lack of power is not a factor. I don’t understand why you continue to bring this up.

Originally posted by "Id"
Your only standing argument, is if Kyle is willing to do so. Otherwise yes Kyle can pull out a total recall by simply commanding his ring to do so.

I shouldn't even have to prove a negative on Kyle's inability to access Oblivion's skills. But the actual absence of such feats is irrefutable. And the deflection from this particular single point of three is arbitrary.

Originally posted by dmills
Nova is a legit high herald with the potential to amp beyond that.

@OneDumbgo

na Kyle beats Nova here. I see that now since Kyle is way beyond high herald level. Id has shown me that Kyle's on panel ability to duplicate the powers of his constructs during Circle of Fire whenever he wants to clearly makes him at least trans level or higher. I would also like to add that Kyle > Silver Surfer, Thor, and Genis-Vell.

Oh wait I thought this was a Classic Ion Vs Nova Prime thread. Oops......

😆

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
@OneDumbgo

na Kyle beats Nova here. I see that now since Kyle is way beyond high herald level. Id has shown me that Kyle's on panel ability to duplicate the powers of his constructs during Circle of Fire whenever he wants to clearly makes him at least trans level or higher. I would also like to add that Kyle > Silver Surfer, Thor, and Genis-Vell.

Oh wait I thought this was a Classic Ion Vs Nova Prime thread. Oops......

😆

Because it's questionable whether Kyle can attain the power levels Oblivion demonstrated. Particularly when the power that Oblivion represented was stated to not return to Kyle but actually merge with the Hallax energies -- which were later given up. I could make other arguments concerning whether power is an issue here, this is just the more obvious one.

That Kyle did not retain Oblivions power, is a non factor given that Oblivion’s power came from Kyle’s ring. Otherwise their would be no point in Oblivion stating to Kyle, that he could make an army of Oblivions through his ring.

Again, assuming Kyle has the ability to recall all of Oblivion's skill when that knowledge was (a) rejected outright on a conscious level, (b) deeply repressed on a subconscious level, and (c) hasn't been once demonstrated on-panel is dubious at best.

I shouldn't even have to prove a negative on Kyle's inability to access Oblivion's skills. But the actual absence of such feats is irrefutable. And the deflection from this particular single point of three is arbitrary

[*] Deeply repressed on a subconscious level - Moot point willing Kyle can command his ring to extract that knowledge.

[*] hasn't been once demonstrated on-panel is dubious at best - Absence of feat does not mean, absence of ability. Everything that is needed to pull of the Oblivion, and Co feats are their.
[/list]

Originally posted by "Id"
Its not so much being questionable, as oppose to your inability to concede, and accept the fact. The fact being that Kyle’ ring fueled Oblivion strength, as stated in the comic in bold print.

That Kyle did not retain Oblivions power, is a non factor given that Oblivion’s power came from Kyle’s ring. Otherwise their would be no point in Oblivion stating to Kyle, that he could make an army of Oblivions through his ring.

Originally posted by "Id"
There is no assumptions, Kyle can recall Oblivions knowledge. Willing Kyle can command his ring to extract information, thus assume the knowledge of not just Oblivion but all his constructs.
[list=a]
[*]rejected outright on a conscious level - Moot point the memories still exists within the psyche of Kyel’s mind.

[*] Deeply repressed on a subconscious level - Moot point willing Kyle can command his ring to extract that knowledge.

[*] hasn't been once demonstrated on-panel is dubious at best - Absence of feat does not mean, absence of ability. Everything that is needed to pull of the Oblivion, and Co feats are their.
[/list]

You assume that extracting that knowledge wouldn't threaten to regress his mental state even though the method involved was deep imprisonment in his subconscious.

It hasn't just been not demonstrated on-panel even once. In addition, this total recall ability of Oblivion hasn't once been hinted at on-panel. Kyle didn't go around thinking, "Pfft. Oblivion tried to seduce me with all these promises of power, but little does he realize that I can just snatch his memories/skills anytime I want. I get to have my cake and eat it too!" No. That decidedly was not the resolution of Circle of Fire.

But I understand you're more interested in speculative feats that have never happened which, if performed, would actually threaten the entire resolution and point of the storyline, i.e., the emotional growth of Kyle. Projecting Oblivion's feats onto Kyle makes as much sense as projecting Supernova's feats onto Nova Prime and both make less sense than projecting Valkyrie's feats onto Thor or Void's feats onto Sentry.

The fact that directly after the story, Oblivion's own power was a distinct source of energy and never returned to Kyle and Kyle wasn't vastly weakened informs us that Oblivion may have been sourced by Kyle's ring but his feats stood alone. Shoulda, coulda, woulda, mighta doesn't help Kyle now perform feats he hasn't performed. Particularly when you combine it with a no limits fallacy, no matter how attractive sounding it is.

You assume that Kyle undoing his conscious decision wouldn't compromise the entire point of the story and Kyle's own growth.

You assume that extracting that knowledge wouldn't threaten to regress his mental state even though the method involved was deep imprisonment in his subconscious.

It hasn't just been not demonstrated on-panel even once. In addition, this total recall ability of Oblivion hasn't once been hinted at on-panel. Kyle didn't go around thinking, "Pfft. Oblivion tried to seduce me with all these promises of power, but little does he realize that I can just snatch his memories/skills anytime I want. I get to have my cake and eat it too!" No. That decidedly was not the resolution of Circle of Fire.

But I understand you're more interested in speculative feats that have never happened which, if performed, would actually threaten the entire resolution and point of the storyline, i.e., the emotional growth of Kyle. Projecting Oblivion's feats onto Kyle makes as much sense as projecting Supernova's feats onto Nova Prime and both make less sense than projecting Valkyrie's feats onto Thor or Void's feats onto Sentry.

Originally posted by "Id"
The fact that the scan I posted is sans Circle of Fire, and Ion arcs. Completely shuns your speculation, of Oblivion being a distinctive source of energy. This is retarded your mounting an argument of broad speculation, against what is clearly explained in the comic book.

Originally posted by "Id"
Congratulations for saying a whole lot of nothing. Your entire speech of how this would compromise Kyle morality, is only relevant if it took place in the comic book itself. Funny last I remembered this is a match taking place in Forum, unbounded by premises of the comic book’s plot.

Then Thor fans can argue about whether Thor should be at the top of the martial arts hierarchy based on an aspct of his personality stomping Moondragon and Gamora individually in melee. And then Cyclops fans can argue over why Cyclops never used Void's knowledge to blackmail Norman since he trapped Void and possibly had access to everything Void remembered of Norman. And then Sentry fans can argue that all his low feats during his pre-Molecule Man fight history were complete PIS, since Sentry had access to all of Void's memories and feats and power (after all, let's just ignore how Sentry tried to contain Void the entire time).

Do the above look like ridiculous arguments? Sure do to me. And your argument smells like more of the same.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Congratulations for proving a whole lot of nothing. I'm sure after this exchange over what Kyle can possibly do with Oblivion feats -- since we both know he hasn't done it -- dmills and the rest of them can argue about what Nova Prime can possibly do with Supernova feats. Your rationale after all.

Then Thor fans can argue about whether Thor should be at the top of the martial arts hierarchy based on an aspct of his personality stomping Moondragon and Gamora individually in melee. And then Cyclops fans can argue over why Cyclops never used Void's knowledge to blackmail Norman since he trapped Void and possibly had access to everything Void remembered of Norman. And then Sentry fans can argue that all his low feats during his pre-Molecule Man fight history were complete PIS, since Sentry had access to all of Void's memories and feats and power (after all, let's just ignore how Sentry tried to contain Void the entire time).

Do the above look like ridiculous arguments? Sure do to me. And your argument smells like more of the same.

The comic made it very clear, all it takes for Kyle to do what Oblivion did is gain his Oblivions experience. Unlike Scott, or Sentry. Kyle has the means to gain that knowledge.

You guys can't agree to disagree?

Originally posted by iceman24567
You guys can't agree to disagree?

At this point what are his arguments?

[list=a]
[*] Kyle inability to extract knowledge from his subconscious mind? False Kyle has prompted a total recall at the command of his ring.

[*] Lack of power? False Oblivion was created, and empowered by the ring as stated in the comic.

[*] That the extraction of the information, is not enough to claim Oblivions feats? False Oblivion himself stated he can teach him what he knows, to the extant of creating an army of Oblivions under Kyle's own power.
[/list]

^ a. Whilst ignoring that Kyle resolved to consciously reject what Oblivion offered and still has to this day. What... his subconscious is going to access that knowledge?

b. Yeah, and that power that Oblivion represented went away. Was reabsorbed as part of the Ion power, and then was given up.

c. And Kyle refused it. And Kyle buried it deep inside his subconscious. Because that's how he defeated Oblivion's attempts to taint and seduce him over to the "Dark Side of the Force."

What story are you reading? Did you write a fanfic where Kyle releases Oblivion from his subconscious, goes all Darth Vader, and starts creating an army of Oblivions? Til it's published by DC, let's stick with what Kyle's done on-panel. Whether what Kyle has actually performed on-panel isn't good enough for you or good enough in a fight is your problem. Not our's.

😆