I'm curious about something....

Originally posted by Mshinu
IIRC Lucas called both Obiwan and Anakin "level nine" in ROTS, but Anakin was "level ten" at the end with the dark side. Obiwan was giving ground most of the fight, but matched Anakin a few times when they locked up. Anakin ultimately lost because he attempted that stupid leap "the height og hubris".

I`d give Obiwan the win before Anakin comitted himself to the dark side. After that I still see Obi eventually winning more often than not unless it was a fight in a closed room. Give Anakin a few months to come to terms with his feelings and the dark side, then I think he would pull a majority perhaps a clear one.

The fact remains, that Anakin would lose to Kenobi pretty much most times they fought. The whole notion that he was so conflicted and his mind was a mess is rubbish. Kenobi mind was also a miss and in fact he also through narration makes this clear. There is ZERO narration that talks about Anakin being conflicted or not wanting to kill Kenobi. There is narration that talks about Kenobi being conflicted. So this nonsense about the only reason Kenobi won was because Anakin was a mess is bs. A kenobi with his mind messed up... beat a skywalker who was less conflicted is how it should read.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The fact remains, that Anakin would lose to Kenobi pretty much most times they fought. The whole notion that he was so conflicted and his mind was a mess is rubbish. Kenobi mind was also a miss and in fact he also through narration makes this clear. There is ZERO narration that talks about Anakin being conflicted or not wanting to kill Kenobi. There is narration that talks about Kenobi being conflicted. So this nonsense about the only reason Kenobi won was because Anakin was a mess is bs. A kenobi with his mind messed up... beat a skywalker who was less conflicted is how it should read.

Whatever, if you wanna disregard them in lieu of your opinion, go ahead.

Obi-Wan was an 8. Anakin, Mace, Yoda, and Sidious were all 9s... But it is pointless as Lord Lucien pointed out asNick Gillard said it and he is a non-canon source.

Also from the RotS Junior Novel. "As Anakin's lightsaber hummed toward him, a calm certainty filled Obi-Wan. Anakin was going to kill him. Oh, he'd make Anakin work for it. He'd fight with everything he had. But he was positive, with the sureness that came from Force-driven insight, that he would die at Anakin's hands."

Originally posted by ares834
Obi-Wan was an 8. Anakin, Mace, Yoda, and Sidious were all 9s... But it is pointless as Lord Lucien pointed out asNick Gillard said it and he is a non-canon source.

Also from the RotS Junior Novel. "As Anakin's lightsaber hummed toward him, a calm certainty filled Obi-Wan. Anakin was going to kill him. Oh, he'd make Anakin work for it. He'd fight with everything he had. But he was positive, with the sureness that came from Force-driven insight, that he would die at Anakin's hands."

Yep, but despite that insight Obiwan still won and crippeled Anakin didn`t he? Obviously this "prophecy" is not fulfilled in RotS.

Obiwan makes statements like that many times, like "Why do I feel you are going to be the death of me?" in episide 2. And we all know that Anakin as Darth Vader will kill Obiwan in episode 4.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Yep, but despite that insight Obiwan still won and crippeled Anakin didn`t he? Obviously this "prophecy" is not fulfilled in RotS.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Obiwan makes statements like that many times, like "Why do I feel you are going to be the death of me?" in episide 2. And we all know that Anakin as Darth Vader will kill Obiwan in episode 4.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Okay then... you're rather useless to talk to. The man's gone insane and tries to kill his wife and best friend all over what is in actuality, a misunderstanding. His mind. Is. SNAPPED. Obi-Wan's is a clear Jedi's mind. Did you not read the passages I quoted for you?

Whatever, if you wanna disregard them in lieu of your opinion, go ahead.

I didn't disregard anything buddy. I read each and every word you typed. The problem was, you offered nothing to dispell the notion through narration that Anakin was conflicted. You even admit that there is no narration that talks about this being the case, and the confliction narration is only about Kenobi. So I'm 100% correct in saying the narration makes it clear that Kenobi was conflicted and not Anakin. We can try and use conjecture and logic to say Anakin could've been conflicted. Cool. However, there isn't narration backing that up, there is narration backing up Kenobi being conflicted.

Furthermore, you keep on bringing up Padame... Yes it bothered him.. but the fact remains CLEAR through narration that he knew he didn't KILL her. What you are also forgetting is the rage and anger that Anakin felt towards Kenobi. Are we forgetting that Rage and Anger FUEL a DS user. Those various things leads to the DS and they tap into those "negative" feelings more. So while you call those things bad.. in actuality they fueled his anger and desire to kill kenobi. Kenobi on the other hand... was hesitant to kill Anakin. Lets not also forget that Anakin had already kid Mace... killed younglings... killed other jedi... AWHILE before he met Kenobi. Sure it might have been on his mind but he was on the path he was on.. period. He wasn't conflicted about his choice. What we have here is a Anakin who has been through a lot in recent times who is anger and wants to kill kenobi. We have a kenobi who is hesitant to kill Anakin and the only one conflicted about doing so. Yet, Kenobi still proved superior just like he would against a In The Zone Anakin. He just knows him all too well.

"In the zone" means calm and collected and in control of yourself. Anakin was definitely not in the zone like Anakin Solo in Star by Star when he opened himself to the Force and slaughtered numerous Vong despite suffering countless wounds. Solo knew he was going to die, but accepted it. Anakin Skywalker now Vader was bloodlusted, emotionally out of control and was so hell-bent on killing Kenobi that he got sloppy.

Another factor is Kenobi and Anakin sparred virtually every day so he [Kenobi] was very familiar with his Djem So. I'm not sure if there was a Force bond, but Kenobi would have won every time. Another factor is that Kenobi killed Sith who was "in the zone" and his name was Maul. IMO Maul was a far better fighter than Anakin, but that doesn't matter. Kenobi would have won anyway.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
"In the zone" means calm and collected and in control of yourself. Anakin was definitely not in the zone like Anakin Solo in Star by Star when he opened himself to the Force and slaughtered numerous Vong despite suffering countless wounds. Solo knew he was going to die, but accepted it. Anakin Skywalker now Vader was bloodlusted, emotionally out of control and was so hell-bent on killing Kenobi that he got sloppy.

Another factor is Kenobi and Anakin sparred virtually every day so he [Kenobi] was very familiar with his Djem So. I'm not sure if there was a Force bond, but Kenobi would have won every time. Another factor is that Kenobi killed Sith who was "in the zone" and his name was Maul. IMO Maul was a far better fighter than Anakin, but that doesn't matter. Kenobi would have won anyway.

So you basically agree with me right Darth?

My whole point in starting this thread is to dispell the notion that only Anakin was conflicted as Kenobi mind also was and had emotions running through him as well. People kept on saying... Oooo Anakin was mind f'd and that is why he lost, and I just don't buy that one bit.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
...Maul was a [b]far better fighter than Anakin...[/B]

WTF?!?!?! WOW!! Big words there bub.

I just don't see where it is stated that Anakin was fighting anywhere less than his usual ability in ROTS on mustafar.

Everyone is making assumptions based on how a normal human being would "feel" in that situation, but there is not a single canon source that supports the idea that anything that was happening to Anakin affected his combat ability.

(that i've seen posted yet, if someone has one, please do so)

Until that source is posted, pretending like Anakin was somehow gimped against Kenobi is an assumption: Something we don't put up with in this forum. We only use canon.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I didn't disregard anything buddy. I read each and every word you typed. The problem was, you offered nothing to dispell the notion through narration that Anakin was conflicted. You even admit that there is no narration that talks about this being the case, and the confliction narration is only about Kenobi.

Not once, in the entire mythos, are males referred to in narration as having a penis. So does that mean they have none?

Remember in Rots (the movie) where Vader is looking out over Mustafar following the slaughter, and that tear rolls down his cheek? What do you think that tear was for? Someone who's totally evil, like Palpatine, wouldn't weep after that. That was the face of a man torn apart by what he was doing. The conclusion he jumped to upon Padme's "betrayal" was that "(she was) with him! You brought him here to kill me!" A sane, rational, clear-headed man would not accuse (and then Force-choke) his wife--the woman he turned to the Dark Side to save, of plotting his death. Those are the actions of man conflicted, confused, and torn apart by something. If you... honestly can't understand that...

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So I'm 100% correct in saying the narration makes it clear that Kenobi was conflicted and not Anakin. We can try and use conjecture and logic to say Anakin could've been conflicted. Cool. However, there isn't narration backing that up, there is narration backing up Kenobi being conflicted.

I'll repeat this for the last time: those narrative lines on Kenobi's thoughts, the ones where he gave up his hopes and fears, the line where he let go of is blind attachment to Anakin--- that is not the description of a conflicted man. That is a determined man, who is willing to do what he now knows is necessary. "It was a place he decided they should reach together." He was accepting his death. That is the Jedi way, and Obi-Wan was embracing it fully. He was not conflicted.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Furthermore, you keep on bringing up Padame... Yes it bothered him.. but the fact remains CLEAR through narration that he knew he didn't KILL her.

And Padme's "life or death" situation wasn't what prompted him to accuse her of betrayal and conspiring his murder. Whether she was alive or not wasn't what made him choke her in to unconsciousness. He didn't get angry at Obi-Wan because she had died. He was enraged that she had betrayed him, seemingly at Obi-Wan's prompting. "You turned her against me!"

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What you are also forgetting is the rage and anger that Anakin felt towards Kenobi. Are we forgetting that Rage and Anger FUEL a DS user. Those various things leads to the DS and they tap into those "negative" feelings more. So while you call those things bad.. in actuality they fueled his anger and desire to kill kenobi.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Kenobi on the other hand... was hesitant to kill Anakin. Lets not also forget that Anakin had already kid Mace... killed younglings... killed other jedi... AWHILE before he met Kenobi. Sure it might have been on his mind but he was on the path he was on.. period. He wasn't conflicted about his choice. What we have here is a Anakin who has been through a lot in recent times who is anger and wants to kill kenobi. We have a kenobi who is hesitant to kill Anakin and the only one conflicted about doing so. Yet, Kenobi still proved superior just like he would against a In The Zone Anakin. He just knows him all too well.

I hope by the time you've reached this part that you'll have re-re-re-learned the fact that Kenobi was hesitant to kill Anakin---until he "let it go." Until he let go of his attachment. Please don't make me retype the passages again.

I don't how you define the phrases and words we've been exchanging, but if you think that Kenobi "letting go of his attachment" for Anakin means "being confused and not knowing what to do because of his attachment" for Anakin... then I don't know what to do with you.

If you think Anakin's face, his words and actions on the landing pad, and his deteriorating mental state during the build-up of the story is the behavior of a determined man who's cast aside his doubts and fears and confusion and has fully embraced his new self and exiled his old life, then... well let's just say that I wouldn't want to meet you in person.

That determination, that clear-headedness I mentioned, that absolute conviction that "this is it" and the moment of "Oh, I get it now" are what defines what we call "Zone" Anakin. The clarity of a Jedi with the fury of the Dark Side. That version of Anakin is something Kenobi could not trick or defeat in combat.

Lucien, i'm not seeing where any of the emotional turmoil that anakin was supposedly feeling (or maybe he wasn't, maybe he had turned into a cold-hearted bastard, we don't know. Anything about Anakin's emotional state is speculation since we don't have a source that confirms.) but if he WAS feeling everything you have supposed that he is feeling, where is it stated that that affected his combat ability? Anakin (and Kenobi) were battle-hardened war generals. They were used to losing friends in combat and continuing the fight.

I mean, Yoda and Dooku were fighting, was Dooku the former padawan so conflicted to the point of combat ineptitude?

Originally posted by truejedi
I mean, Yoda and Dooku were fighting, was Dooku the former padawan so conflicted to the point of combat ineptitude?

This is one of the worst comparisons... ever.

But the answer is no, Dooku wasn't conflicted, he was positive that what he was doing was the right thing and he didn't just go through hell.

Anakin:

Dooku:

Originally posted by truejedi
Lucien, i'm not seeing where any of the emotional turmoil that anakin was supposedly feeling (or maybe he wasn't, maybe he had turned into a cold-hearted bastard, we don't know. Anything about Anakin's emotional state is speculation since we don't have a source that confirms.) but if he WAS feeling everything you have supposed that he is feeling, where is it stated that that affected his combat ability? Anakin (and Kenobi) were battle-hardened war generals. They were used to losing friends in combat and continuing the fight.

Anakin, like Dooku, wasn't conflicted here. He knew he was doing the right thing during the war and he was clear minded. While fighting Obi-Wan he obviously wasn't.

I don't know if the "higher ground" example has been given yet. But would Anakin really take the leap if it happened at the beginning of RotS against Dooku?

It's pretty obvious by just seeing the movie that Anakin wasn't a cold-hearted bastard. Like Lucien said, he was crying and yelling like an emotional unrational wreck.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
This is one of the worst comparisons... ever.

But the answer is no, Dooku wasn't conflicted, he was positive that what he was doing was the right thing and he didn't just go through hell.

Anakin:

Dooku:

Agreed on the comparison being a stretch. However, Anakin was ALSO sure he was doing the right thing. "The Jedi are evil." He tried to explain the same thing to Padme. I don't see where it says he wasn't sure he was doing the right thing? Still asking for a source, and you still haven't given me one.

Anakin, like Dooku, wasn't conflicted here. He knew he was doing the right thing during the war and he was clear minded. While fighting Obi-Wan he obviously wasn't.

Source please? I don't recall Anakin ever expressing doubt in what he was doing was right. He was very strong-minded, even Kenobi said so.

I don't know if the "higher ground" example has been given yet. But would Anakin really take the leap if it happened at the beginning of RotS against Dooku?

It's pretty obvious by just seeing the movie that Anakin wasn't a cold-hearted bastard. Like Lucien said, he was crying and yelling like an emotional unrational wreck. [/B]

Killed younglings? Pretty cold-hearted bastard actually.

So you are saying: crying, yelling==diminished combat capability?

Thats the two things we need sources for:

1. That Anakin was emotionally conflicted during his fight with Kenobi. (We only have a canon source that states Kenobi was conflicted. "To strike Anakin down would burn his heart to ash."

2. That IF number 1 on this list is established, that it somehow affect his combat ability.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm simply asking for canon proof for your argument from yourself or Lucious. We ask for this all the time, its nothing new. If the canon proof exists and is posted, I will happily concede the argument.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Oh, God...

Not once, in the entire mythos, are males referred to in narration as having a penis. So does that mean they have none?

Remember in Rots (the movie) where Vader is looking out over Mustafar following the slaughter, and that tear rolls down his cheek? What do you think that tear was for? Someone who's totally evil, like Palpatine, wouldn't weep after that. That was the face of a man torn apart by what he was doing. The conclusion he jumped to upon Padme's "betrayal" was that "(she was) with him! You brought him here to kill me!" A sane, rational, clear-headed man would not accuse (and then Force-choke) his wife--the woman he turned to the Dark Side to save, of plotting his death. Those are the actions of man conflicted, confused, and torn apart by something. If you... honestly can't understand that...

Oh, God...

I'll repeat this for the last time: those narrative lines on Kenobi's thoughts, the ones where he gave up his hopes and fears, the line where he let go of is blind attachment to Anakin--- that is not the description of a conflicted man. That is a determined man, who is willing to do what he now knows is necessary. "It was a place he decided they should reach together." He was accepting his death. That is the Jedi way, and Obi-Wan was embracing it fully. He was not conflicted.

You seem to be under the impression that issue of Padme was the only thing bothering Anakin. He'd been having guilty delusion of grandeur between his duel with Dooku up until his submission. "I want more, but I know I know I shouldn't." The novel explains his anger of being refused the rank of Master not just to sate his own ego, but because only a Master was allowed access certain archives and holocrons (that he wanted to gain power--to save Padme).

And Padme's "life or death" situation wasn't what prompted him to accuse her of betrayal and conspiring his murder. Whether she was alive or not wasn't what made him choke her in to unconsciousness. He didn't get angry at Obi-Wan because she had died. He was enraged that she had betrayed him, seemingly at Obi-Wan's prompting. "You turned her against me!"

No, I'm not forgetting any of that. What you are forgetting is why he was so furious, why he wanted to kill Kenobi. You seem to lack some memory functions, so if you can't think of those reasons, read my above response directly preceding this one.

Oh, God...

I hope by the time you've reached this part that you'll have re-re-re-learned the fact that Kenobi was hesitant to kill Anakin---until he "let it go." Until he let go of his attachment. Please don't make me retype the passages again.

I don't how you define the phrases and words we've been exchanging, but if you think that Kenobi "letting go of his attachment" for Anakin means "being confused and not knowing what to do because of his attachment" for Anakin... then I don't know what to do with you.

If you think Anakin's face, his words and actions on the landing pad, and his deteriorating mental state during the build-up of the story is the behavior of a determined man who's cast aside his doubts and fears and confusion and has fully embraced his new self and exiled his old life, then... well let's just say that I wouldn't want to meet you in person.

That determination, that clear-headedness I mentioned, that absolute conviction that "this is it" and the moment of "Oh, I get it now" are what defines what we call "Zone" Anakin. The clarity of a Jedi with the fury of the Dark Side. That version of Anakin is something Kenobi could not trick or defeat in combat.

Well said Lucien. While canon is by far the ultimate say-so in regards to ANY debate, some things are just so heavily implied that they're nearly impossible to ignore by any rational thinking person.

Originally posted by truejedi

So you are saying: crying, yelling==diminished combat capability?

YES!!! ABSOLUTELY!! In the sense that his mental clarity is affected, absolutely! Crying and yelling are signs of emotional distress. Emotional distress of this nature leads to lack of mental clarity and of self-control. One is at a disadvantage when lacking clairty of mind and self-control during combat, or most anything for that matter. Have you taken any form of combat training? If so, what do you remember about self-control? Even w/ boxing (of which I have close to 10 yrs experience) and mma (a few months), self-control and clarity of mind are synonomous with eachother and of utmost importance.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
YES!!! ABSOLUTELY!! In the sense that his mental clarity is affected, absolutely! Crying and yelling are signs of emotional distress. Emotional distress of this nature leads to lack of mental clarity and of self-control. One is at a disadvantage when lacking clairty of mind and self-control during combat, or most anything for that matter. Have you taken any form of combat training? If so, what do you remember about self-control? Even w/ boxing (of which I have close to 10 yrs experience) and mma (a few months), self-control and clarity of mind are synonomous with eachother and of utmost importance.

This would only be true if this was stated through canon narration or show in the actual fight that took place... As stated in my original post... Take a look at how easily Obi beat a very very good lightsaber practioner. Someone who has done very well against Mace among other Jedi masters. Yet Kenobi was able to cut him down limb by limb is quick manner. Yet against Anakin he had no such luck or opening to do so. The fight lasted a great great deal longer. This proves that Anakin was fighting JUST FINE and doing very well for himself. He was even putting kenobi in vulnerable positions. So no, this isn't to be assumed because we have canon evidence pointing out that he was fighting very well and doing very well.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This would only be true if this was stated through canon narration or show in the actual fight that took place

Again... While canon is by far the ultimate say-so in regards to ANY debate, some things are just so heavily implied that they're nearly impossible to ignore by any rational thinking person.

And as Lord Lucien put it, there are no canon quotes about any of the Jedi males "having a penis", so according to your logic, it MUST be false. There are also no canon quotes regarding Anakin and Padme getting it on... BUT it is heavily implied since she was pregnant with his child.