Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Again... While canon is by far the ultimate say-so in regards to ANY debate, some things are just so heavily implied that they're nearly impossible to ignore by any rational thinking person.And as Lord Lucien put it, there are no canon quotes about any of the Jedi males "having a penis", so according to your logic, it MUST be false. There are also no canon quotes regarding Anakin and Padme getting it on... BUT it is heavily implied since she was pregnant with his child.
You said this already. However, there was nothing in that fight that indicated he wasn't fighting effectively and doing very well for himself. I pointed out how G.G. has done against better jedi such as Mace, yet Kanobi methodically picked him apart. he found no such openings against Anakin. So even with your conjecture about his state of mind it's clear through the canon movie that Anakin fought very well and was using his anger at Kenobi to try and kill him. The fight proved it didn't have any effect on his fighting ability.
Originally posted by truejedi
Agreed on the comparison being a stretch. However, Anakin was ALSO sure he was doing the right thing. "The Jedi are evil." He tried to explain the same thing to Padme. I don't see where it says he wasn't sure he was doing the right thing? Still asking for a source, and you still haven't given me one.
With you, you probably mean the plural, because you haven’t asked me personally once for a source.
Anakin doesn’t seem to know what he wants, first he only appears to want to save Padmé but then he suddenly wants to overthrow the chancellor and rule the galaxy… By the way, can anyone tell me where his sudden need for ruling the galaxy comes from? Or as a matter of fact, why did he conclude that the Jedi are the absolute evil? Mace trying to kill the Ultimate Sith Lord can’t be the reason why he suddenly thinks Jedi are the incarnation of hell’s creatures. If he’s absolutely sure of himself then he is the galaxy’s biggest moron.
Source please? I don't recall Anakin ever expressing doubt in what he was doing was right. He was very strong-minded, even Kenobi said so.
Strong minded? I’ve discussed this with Gideon before, Anakin doesn’t seem to be so strong minded. He doesn’t seem to know what to think most of the times, acts like an infant when things don’t go his way and sometimes he’s pretty close to the brink of absolute stupidity.
Where has Obi-Wan said this again?
I certainly don't know. Do you? Don't speculate. He did attack Dooku in AOTC in a rash manner that got his ass handed to him.
Well, he becomes a lot more experienced during the Clone Wars, so you can’t say he’s the same after three years when it comes to fights. The narration makes it pretty clear that Anakin was in complete control during his fight in RotS. There’s a huge difference between speculation and a logical deduction.
So you are saying: crying, yelling==diminished combat capability?
What I actually said was: “It's pretty obvious by just seeing the movie that Anakin wasn't a cold-hearted bastard. Like Lucien said, he was crying and yelling like an emotional unrational wreck.”
You said he was a cold-hearted bastard, but does a cold-hearted bastard cry and yell like ”an emotional unrational wreck”?
Thats the two things we need sources for:1. That Anakin was emotionally conflicted during his fight with Kenobi. (We only have a canon source that states Kenobi was conflicted. "To strike Anakin down would burn his heart to ash."
2. That IF number 1 on this list is established, that it somehow affect his combat ability.
Well, if you don’t put your mind to something completely like he did with Dooku where he was just focusing on the duel, you tend to be less efficient at it. I’m not saying he was less powerful but he obviously wasn’t thinking clearly which lead to his defeat, so I’m pretty sure this would count as affecting his combat ability.
Originally posted by truejedi
Jin, did you have ANYTHING from canon to back you up? Or just supposition?
TJ, Just because something isn't spelled out within/by a canonical source, doesn't mean it isn't valid. Some things are just HEAVILY implied. Do I have a canon source backing me up? Just what I and a great many others are able to pull from watching RotS and reading the novelization. It's right there, it doesn't need to be spelled out word for word. Omission doesn't necessarily = something being non-existent/invalid.
Originally posted by truejediIt didn't affect his skill level, but his thought process. Haven't you ever heard it's best not to fight in anger, that a clear head is needed? Anakin was using the Dark Side, definitely, but he did not possess a mind that was "clear as a crystal bell." He did not possess "clarity", as he had when he Zoned out on Dooku.
Lucien, i'm not seeing where any of the emotional turmoil that anakin was supposedly feeling (or maybe he wasn't, maybe he had turned into a cold-hearted bastard, we don't know. Anything about Anakin's emotional state is speculation since we don't have a source that confirms.) but if he WAS feeling everything you have supposed that he is feeling, where is it stated that that affected his combat ability? Anakin (and Kenobi) were battle-hardened war generals. They were used to losing friends in combat and continuing the fight.
For the sake of neat outlining:
There's possessing a clear head.
There's possessing of a clouded mind fueled by the Dark Side.
There's possessing of a clear head fueled by the Dark Side.
That last one defines his "Zone" moment. The novel describes his clarity of mind paired with his fury. During the Mustafar duel, the man was not--NOT clear in the head. Thanosi may not be able to distinguish between torment/anguish and serenity, but I know you can.
I know I'll come off as a hypocrite, what with my spiel against Q99, but some things (such as facial features, tone of voice) are implications that just can't be ignored because there's noone from LucasArts to put it in to text for us. I'll keep going back to this: No one is ever mentioned as having a scrotum, but for f*ckssake, I refuse to be THAT stubborn.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It didn't affect his skill level, but his thought process. Haven't you ever heard it's best not to fight in anger, that a clear head is needed? Anakin was using the Dark Side, definitely, but he did not possess a mind that was "clear as a crystal bell." He did not possess "clarity", as he had when he Zoned out on Dooku.For the sake of neat outlining:
There's possessing a clear head.
There's possessing of a clouded mind fueled by the Dark Side.
There's possessing of a clear head fueled by the Dark Side.That last one defines his "Zone" moment. The novel describes his clarity of mind paired with his fury. During the Mustafar duel, the man was not--NOT clear in the head. Thanosi may not be able to distinguish between torment/anguish and serenity, but I know you can.
I know I'll come off as a hypocrite, what with my spiel against Q99, but some things (such as facial features, tone of voice) are implications that just can't be ignored because there's noone from LucasArts to put it in to text for us. I'll keep going back to this: No one is ever mentioned as having a scrotum, but for f*ckssake, I refuse to be THAT stubborn.
Well played, Canadian!!
Urrgh.. all this emo talk about being emotionally conflicted and who was crying most leaves a foul taste in my mouth. Obiwan and Anakin are experienced warriors, naturally they have extensive training in retaining combat effectiveness under stress. Going by how the fight was shown in the movie, I`d say they both fought to the limit of their abilites (ignoring special cases like crystal mind or whatever SW call those zen-like concepts.) Anakin ulitmately lost because he attemptet that stupid leap, an act of overconfidence rather than grief.
Originally posted by MshinuSee, that's what we call "boring".
Urrgh.. all this emo talk about being emotionally conflicted and who was crying most leaves a foul taste in my mouth. Obiwan and Anakin are experienced warriors, naturally they have extensive training in retaining combat effectiveness under stress. Going by how the fight was shown in the movie, I`d say they both fought to the limit of their abilites (ignoring special cases like crystal mind or whatever SW call those zen-like concepts.) Anakin ulitmately lost because he attemptet that stupid leap, an act of overconfidence rather than grief.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It didn't affect his skill level, but his thought process. Haven't you ever heard it's best not to fight in anger, that a clear head is needed? Anakin was using the Dark Side, definitely, but he did not possess a mind that was "clear as a crystal bell." He did not possess "clarity", as he had when he Zoned out on Dooku.For the sake of neat outlining:
There's possessing a clear head.
There's possessing of a clouded mind fueled by the Dark Side.
There's possessing of a clear head fueled by the Dark Side.That last one defines his "Zone" moment. The novel describes his clarity of mind paired with his fury. During the Mustafar duel, the man was not--NOT clear in the head. Thanosi may not be able to distinguish between torment/anguish and serenity, but I know you can.
I know I'll come off as a hypocrite, what with my spiel against Q99, but some things (such as facial features, tone of voice) are implications that just can't be ignored because there's noone from LucasArts to put it in to text for us. I'll keep going back to this: No one is ever mentioned as having a scrotum, but for f*ckssake, I refuse to be THAT stubborn.
You're correct you do come across as a hypocrite. Nothing new there though. So you agree his combat ability wasn't diminished which has been the entire point i have made from the start. This notion that the only reason Kenobi won was because of Anakin emotional state is bs. Even with clarity I would still give Obi the majority. So you're correct on two fronts... first you're a hypocrite and have no narration to back up your speculation. Second, Anakin's combat abilities weren't diminished
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You're correct you do come across as a hypocrite. Nothing new there though. So you agree his combat ability wasn't diminished which has been the entire point i have made from the start.
You are annoying. Either you ignore what he's saying or you just don't get it. Where did he say that Anakin's combat ability wasn't diminished?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This notion that the only reason Kenobi won was because of Anakin emotional state is bs.
Where did anyone say that the only reason Kenobi won was because of Anakin's emotional state?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Even with clarity I would still give Obi the majority.
This is the real case of speculation. The only thing we know is that Vader with a clear head defeated Obi-Wan in ANH.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
have no narration to back up your speculation.
You always need narration to back up the obvious? You don't explain everything in a movie, like I said before, sometimes the movie asks you to think for yourself and draw the obvious conclusions yourself. It's not a movie for absolute idiots who need to be told everything because they can't think for themselves.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Second, Anakin's combat abilities weren't diminished
I could just repeat what the Canadian said about clarity of mind, but I'm starting to realise you're a wall.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
This is the real case of speculation. The only thing we know is that Vader with a clear head defeated Obi-Wan in ANH.
Umm, no. Obiwan allowed himself to be struck down.
It is also interesting to note that Vader at this point himself states he was "but a student" last time they fought.
Wiser now, even he himself has realized he was not all that.
Originally posted by truejedi
Jin, did you have ANYTHING from canon to back you up? Or just supposition?
Lord Lucian and others have already said it a lot more eloquently but I'll throw my own two pennies in.
TJ, do you not know that one of the biggest rules in storytelling (movies, novels etc) is "SHOW, don't TELL"?
As pointed out before, we shouldn't need to have Anakin (or the writer) TELL us he's emotionally conflicted. The story SHOWS us this by his actions.
Seriously just use a little common sense. Put two and two together. As Slash said, you shouldn't need to be told everything. The writer trusts the reader/viewer to be able to figure stuff like this out without needing to have it spoonfed to them.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Again you bring up the Padme issue.. Going by narration.. HE KNEW she was alive when he let her go.. this had no effect on him.
Okay, I know I'm probably wasting my time here, but what the heck.
No effect? Do you honestly think that believing his wife had betrayed him would have no effect on his mental state?
"HE KNEW she was alive..." Not the point. He was in turmoil because he believed she had betrayed him.
Let's employ a little common sense here.
In his fight with Dooku Anakin was focused on saving Palpatine and Kenobi. He had clarity and he had focus. That allowed him to channel his anger effectively rather than being overwhelmed by it.
Against Kenobi, he had no clarity. He believed that his wife had betrayed him and that wrecked his focus so that he was being overwhelmed by his anger rather than channelling it. Channelling one's anger is very different than having it consume them.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The view that Anakin was messed up and thats why he lost is poop and nothing more.
No, that view is sound common sense.
Again, our friend common sense tells us that someone who believes his beloved has betrayed him will be filled with turmoil and so be less effective than when he had a clear, focused mind and heart.