I'm curious about something....

Originally posted by truejedi
i've argued it before. Go to the vs. forum and read the anakin vs. kenobi rematch threads. it is difficult to avoid how completely kenobi was in control.

Originally posted by truejedi
Wait, where did you get the idea that Kenobi beating skywalker was an upset?

Kenobi OWNED skywalker, it wasn't close, the novelization makes that clear.

Both the novel and the film detail the scene where he was almost decapitated by Vader (who in the novel was disarmed but was fast enough to move in and pin Kenobi to the wall and bend his wrists back). The film (higher canon) also includes him being strangled. Immediately before this scene, the novel describes:

"Consoles ripped free of their moorings and hurtled through the air. Dead hands spasmed on triggers and blaster bolts sizzled through impossibly intricate lattices of ricochet.
Obi-Wan barely caught some and flipped them at Anakin: a desperation move. Anything to distract him, anything to slow them down. Easily, contemptuously, Anakin sent them back..."

And then:

"A roar of the Force blasted Obi-Wan back in to a wall, smashing breath from his lungs, leaving him swaying, half stunned. Anakin stepped over bodies and lifted his blade for the kill."

That's when we transition in to the scene with Vader almost choking out Obi-Wan. Oh, and the line immediately preceding that last one, describes Obi-Wan "parrying madly". Not "casually" or "with ease".

Even after Obi-Wan's catharsis, where he "let it all go", there was nothing remotely close to "ownage". He outwitted Anakin for a moment when they were swinging on the cables--but Anakin "caught on to the game" and foiled Obi-Wan's plan of cutting him loose. And the lava-fall scene isn't described as part of Kenobi's plan--he realized almost too late where they were headed, and a swift kick knocked Anakin away while he (Kenobi) escaped.

I just read the entire fight (for what feels like the tenth time recently) and nowhere does it describe anything akin to "ownage". Kenobi did not "own" him, "kick his ass", "outsmarted him the entire time"... no, his trick with Anakin's mechanical hand almost got him suffocated/decapitated. Where Kenobi really scored big, was when he "suckered" Anakin by getting past him on to the lava river's shore.

I rescind any comment I've made in the past about Obi-Wan's supposed out-witting of Anakin. At least in the context of the whole duel. He maneuvered them through the facility because he "gave ground. It was his way." Not because he had some master plan, or some ace up his sleeve. His trick with Anakin's hand was even described as his "last" trick.

No, Anakin was surviving quite well, despite Obi-Wan's impregnable defenses and his superior experience. It was that last-ditch dive Kenobi made and Anakin's subsequent "Oh, Yeah!" blunder that lost him the fight. Not Kenobi's brilliance or superior skills.

There was no "owna--", sorry-- "OWNAGE". There was simply a victory. And a close one at that. Imagine if Anakin had been in a more temperate mental... zoney state. There would have been ownage, but not for Kenobi.

proof that ANakin in a different mind-set would have done a better job against Kenobi? Using his anger and hatred actually strengthens a darkside user.

And Yes, I'm completely aware of the all the text you just ommitted in forming your one-sided argument.

In fact, i'm going to try out my newest debate tactic. No offense intended actually.

If you disagree with me on this point, you are unreasonable, and obviously an Anakin fanboy. You are not worth responding too, and I will not waste time doing so. But you are wrong, and anyone reasonable can clearly see so, though none of you hat disagree with me ARE reasonable.

Clear?

lololololol. : )

Originally posted by truejedi
proof that ANakin in a different mind-set would have done a better job against Kenobi? Using his anger and hatred actually strengthens a darkside user.

Originally posted by truejedi
And Yes, I'm completely aware of the all the text you just ommitted in forming your one-sided argument.

In the novel, didn't Sidious mention to Anakin something about meeting him at a cool calm peak of the force or something like that?

I haven't read the novel in years.

Speaking of Sidious, my re-read of the end of the duel confirmed that Sidious did indeed arrive right as Vader caught on fire. The guy moves quick.

LL, go to the battle bar,read the link blaxican posted, and you will understand my new debate method.

Oh right, Ush's patented foolproof, highly logical, incontrovertible, factual argument.

The guy's a champ. 👆

Foreigners should not be trusted to run this forum.

Originally posted by truejedi
proof that ANakin in a different mind-set would have done a better job against Kenobi?

Common sense. Anyone with a clear, focused head will do better than when they don't have focus.

If you really need 'proof' just look at how Anakin defeats Dooku in RotS.

Originally posted by truejedi
Using his anger and hatred actually strengthens a darkside user.

And your point is... What exactly?

Strengthening a darksider doesn't mean it gives them a clear head.

Like I said before there's a difference between focusing one's anger and hatred and letting them consume oneself.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Common sense. Anyone with a clear, focused head will do better than when they don't have focus.

Source for that bold generality? First, I will say: That isn't common sense at all: Look at Luke in ROTJ. Look at any professional athlete: IF you are playing tennis and start thinking about the swing, rather than let instinct take over, you will fail.

So: I have provided an alternative to your "common sense". Since my definition of "common sense" is just as valid as yours, then you must come up with a canon quote to support your claim, or else drop the argument:

Right now you are coming across a lot like: "I am right, and I know I am, but I can't prove it, so i'm just going to say that ANYBODY with common sense KNOWS i'm right."

Sorry Ush, but that doesn't work in this forum.

If you really need 'proof' just look at how Anakin defeats Dooku in RotS.

Just read the fight, didn't see any quotes to support your argument? Care to provide them?

Originally posted by truejedi

Source for that bold generality? First, I will say: That isn't common sense at all: Look at Luke in ROTJ. Look at any professional athlete: IF you are playing tennis and start thinking about the swing, rather than let instinct take over, you will fail.

So: I have provided an alternative to your "common sense". Since my definition of "common sense" is just as valid as yours, then you must come up with a canon quote to support your claim, or else drop the argument:

Right now you are coming across a lot like: "I am right, and I know I am, but I can't prove it, so i'm just going to say that ANYBODY with common sense KNOWS i'm right."

Sorry Ush, but that doesn't work in this forum.

Just read the fight, didn't see any quotes to support your argument? Care to provide them?

In a combat scenerio he is correct TJ. Focus is key.

Lol, However, there are no canon quotes I know of. Perhaps there's something somewhere that one of our other members can find/dig up. And damnit, if there isn't one, there should be.

Originally posted by truejedi

Source for that bold generality? First, I will say: That isn't common sense at all: Look at Luke in ROTJ. Look at any professional athlete: IF you are playing tennis and start thinking about the swing, rather than let instinct take over, you will fail.

If you're playing tennis, and you've just killed younglings, have betrayed everyone you've ever loved and been betrayed in turn by the one you loved most, you will fail.

Do you play tennis TJ? If the answer is no, well then, how do you know what role instinct plays in a tennis match?

i do play tennis. and if I stop to think about what i'm doing, I fail. It has to be instinct. (ping pong is the same way, as is golf, basketball, fencing, ANY physical activity)

Seriously, try talking a child through tying your shoes. Look at how much harder it is. The less you think about WHAT you are doing in physical activity, the better it gets.

So: You say it is common sense that a clear head would improve performance. I disagree, I believe giving the mind something else to think about other than the activity at hand actually heightens the physical ability.

I even give a source: "The Inner Game of Tennis" By W. Timothy Gallwey, a tennis pro.

Can you give a source that backs up your viewpoint of "common sense"?

And obviously, since it is disputed, it isn't "common sense" anyway, unless you are deliberately trying to insult me, but anyone who has been on this forum for any duration of time knows I am not completely without sense, so you must try another tact.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Common sense. Anyone with a clear, focused head will do better than when they don't have focus.

If you really need 'proof' just look at how Anakin defeats Dooku in RotS.

Not saying Anakin was fighting to his best against Kenobi, but Palpatine seemed to imply that, at least in Anakin's case, anger = focus. So if something was hindering him in that battle, it likely wasn't anger/rage/hate, etc.

TJ, first, there is a difference between thinking about what you're doing and having a clear head. Secondly, there is a difference between letting your instincts take over and being an emotional conflicted wreck. So all in all, what you're talking about and the battle between Anakin and Obi-Wan is just a bad comparison.

Edit: I feel the need to explain more clearly.

When you say that thinking about what you're doing makes you fail, this is true. But it is not the same as having a clear head. Obi-Wan didn't think about everything he did, he didn't think about every strike he blocks because he is trained enough for this and can just use his instincts (the Force). But he does have a clear head. So it is not the same.

As for the second, Anakin let his instincts take over during his fight with Dooku, but not in the same way as in the fight with Obi-Wan because he was like I said, an emotional conflicted wreck. So it is not the same.

Originally posted by truejedi
i do play tennis. and if I stop to think about what i'm doing, I fail. It has to be instinct. (ping pong is the same way, as is golf, basketball, fencing, ANY physical activity)

Seriously, try talking a child through tying your shoes. Look at how much harder it is. The less you think about WHAT you are doing in physical activity, the better it gets.

So: You say it is common sense that a clear head would improve performance. I disagree, I believe giving the mind something else to think about other than the activity at hand actually heightens the physical ability.

I even give a source: "The Inner Game of Tennis" By W. Timothy Gallwey, a tennis pro.

Can you give a source that backs up your viewpoint of "common sense"?

And obviously, since it is disputed, it isn't "common sense" anyway, unless you are deliberately trying to insult me, but anyone who has been on this forum for any duration of time knows I am not completely without sense, so you must try another tact.

Just because something is disputed, doesn't necessarily dictate that it isn't common sense. Hell, some claim that the holocaust and moon landing never happened, however common sense says otherwise. Moreover, focus doesn't neccesarily mean that one has to think of every detail of every maneuver. However, it does require that the user not let his/her mind wander. Also, if you're engaged in most any competitive activity (combat included) and allow yourself to be consumed by rage, you will eventually falter. Once again, focus doesn't mean that one has to shut out their instincts. I think you're misunderstanding the fundamentals of how focus plays a role here. Anakin most definitely was not focused in his battle w/ OB1, as was evident by his mental state (anguish, confusion, etc...), and one shouldn't need a canon quote to understand this.

Your entire argument is fundamentally flawed TJ.

I do not have an argument, I am asking for proof of YOUR claim.

Your claim is that Anakin was... I don't know, mentally handicapped or something during the mustafar duel?
Burden of proof clearly lies with YOU.

The fact that you continue to try to avoid giving ANY canonical proof begins to tell me that you HAVE NONE.

You are starting to come across like HWKA in that you want your idea of "common sense" to count as canon.

Provide evidence or drop the point, i'm starting to think you don't have a shred of proof to back up your claim, at least, you aren't providing it.