I'm curious about something....

Originally posted by truejedi
I do not have an argument, I am asking for proof of YOUR claim.

Your claim is that Anakin was... I don't know, mentally handicapped or something during the mustafar duel?
Burden of proof clearly lies with YOU.

The fact that you continue to try to avoid giving ANY canonical proof begins to tell me that you HAVE NONE.

You are starting to come across like HWKA in that you want your idea of "common sense" to count as canon.

Provide evidence or drop the point, i'm starting to think you don't have a shred of proof to back up your claim, at least, you aren't providing it.

There IS, however, visual and verbal evidence to support that his beliefs had been shaken to the core, he had betrayed everyone he knew, had been betrayed by the people closest to him, and was visibly (the famous tear scene) distraught with what he was doing as a result. The Tear scene was before his revelation that Padme and Kenobi had betrayed him. With that you add rage (his "nuclear fury"😉 to the mix.

And don't. You. Dare try to write off that scene, with the cinematically notorious Single Tear, running down a face like that, as "nothing that conclusively proves Anakin was emotionally unbalanced." You will have officially joined the ranks of those "nuh-uh, no it doesn't, NO!" people the seniors here have come to shun/mock. Please, for our numbers' sake, don't drop your name from our mighty and illustrious club. There's obeying canon-providers and commentaries, and there's refusing to acknowledge what can only be described as F*cking Common Sense.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Perhaps you could provide some evidence that Anakin was emotionally stable, evidence that proves he was thinking clearly--with a rational, steady mind. I have read every duel in that novel several times recently and there is A.) evidence to show that Anakin was of utmost clarity and level-headedness when he killed Dooku, and B.) absolutely no evidence to support he was of the same state when he lost to Kenobi.

Are you asking me to prove a negative? "Provide proof that he wasn't..."

You are better than that.
Its your claim. You back it up. Just as there is nothing in the book to say he was clear-headed, there is nothing to say he was, either. And its your claim.

However, you admit in the next paragraph that you are of the opinion that you are correct, and THAT is wherein you base your argument, so I don't mind. I'll address that instead.

There IS, however, visual and verbal evidence to support that his beliefs had been shaken to the core, he had betrayed everyone he knew, had been betrayed by the people closest to him, and was visibly (the famous tear scene) distraught with what he was doing as a result. The Tear scene was before his revelation that Padme and Kenobi had betrayed him. With that you add rage (his "nuclear fury"😉 to the mix.

And rage? Since when does rage make someone a worse fighter? Rage makes force-users stronger. Kenobi tapping the dark-side to put up a fight against Maul confirms this.

And don't. You. Dare try to write off that scene, with the cinematically notorious Single Tear, running down a face like that, as "nothing that conclusively proves Anakin was emotionally unbalanced."

That doesn't work simply because EVERYTHING Anakin has just gone through, Kenobi has gone through more. He just had his entire order wiped out, his home destroyed, his brother turn on him, and now he is there to kill this same brother. No one is arguing that Kenobi is gimped in this fight, but every argument you are making for why it is "common sense" that Anakin isn't putting up a top-notch fight also applies to Kenobi.

(an aside, cause I just thought of it, your best evidence, that you should bring up is the "wrestling with the dragon" text from ROTS novelization. It is the closest thing you will get to confirming your theory with canon.)

You will have officially joined the ranks of those "nuh-uh, no it doesn't, NO!" people the seniors here have come to shun/mock. Please, for our numbers' sake, don't drop your name from our mighty and illustrious club. There's obeying canon-providers and commentaries, and there's refusing to acknowledge what can only be described as F*cking Common Sense. [/B]

Just stop. No one cares (or should care) about their "status" on KMC and its 40 weekly posts. This post makes you sound pompous. It is a stupid tactic to take. If you can't discuss star wars without making it personal, i pity you.

Now, how about a point by point rebuttal this time? Your idea of "common sense" and mine are obviously different. Bringing up holocaust deniers as an example of someone else ignoring common sense doesn't help you because we all DO call those people morons. So unless you are attempting to deliberately insult me, then respond to the argument, and not to the concept of someone being wrong simply because they are nonsensical. This is EXACTLY what everyone (including yourself) just called Ush out for doing.

Originally posted by truejedi
Are you asking me to prove a negative? "Provide proof that he wasn't..."

You are better than that.
Its your claim. You back it up. Just as there is nothing in the book to say he was clear-headed, there is nothing to say he was, either. And its your claim.

Originally posted by truejedi
A single tear? THAT'S your compelling, inescapable, i'm a moron for disagreeing- visual evidence? Really LL? are you arguing from desperation here? Don't worry about it, I don't care who wins, I never have, I just like to examine all of the facts. Take a minute to do that. Its seems you want to be right more than you want to provide actual evidence.

My side (the grandest of the two--we have business cards) has A.) Anakin weeping, B.) delusions of grandeur, C.) irrational accusations, D.) telekinetic assault on the very pregnant love of his life for whom he has quite literally sacrificed all for and E.) a prolonged attempt to kill his best friend.

Those are the reasons why I think that Anakin was emotionally unstable, wrong in the head, unable to to think with a clear and rational mind, and unable to purge from his thoughts a driving rage which overcame all reason.

What do YOU have?

Originally posted by truejedi
And rage? Since when does rage make someone a worse fighter? Rage makes force-users stronger. Kenobi tapping the dark-side to put up a fight against Maul confirms this.

Originally posted by truejedi
I really don't understand your use of extra periods here... however...
Its a single tear. Anakin just killed a lot of people, but he cried more than that after killing the sand-people in Episode 2. He cried more than that when raging against the Jedi "Holding him back!" in episode 2. You are trying to take a single tear and turn it into a gimped Anakin.

How do YOU see it? Just another day in the park slaughtering people and forsaking my entire life and--damn all that smoke from the lava river is tearing me up something awful?

Originally posted by truejedi
That doesn't work simply because EVERYTHING Anakin has just gone through, Kenobi has gone through more. He just had his entire order wiped out, his home destroyed, his brother turn on him, and now he is there to kill this same brother. No one is arguing that Kenobi is gimped in this fight, but every argument you are making for why it is "common sense" that Anakin isn't putting up a top-notch fight also applies to Kenobi.

Originally posted by truejedi
(an aside, cause I just thought of it, your best evidence, that you should bring up is the "wrestling with the dragon" text from ROTS novelization. It is the closest thing you will get to confirming your theory with canon.)

Originally posted by truejedi
Just stop. No one cares (or should care) about their "status" on KMC and its 40 weekly posts. This post makes you sound pompous. It is a stupid tactic to take. If you can't discuss star wars without making it personal, i pity you.

Originally posted by truejedi
Now, how about a point by point rebuttal this time? Your idea of "common sense" and mine are obviously different. Bringing up holocaust deniers as an example of someone else ignoring common sense doesn't help you because we all DO call those people morons.

I'm genuinely confused at what you're trying to say here.

Originally posted by truejedi
So unless you are attempting to deliberately insult me, then respond to the argument, and not to the concept of someone being wrong simply because they are nonsensical. This is EXACTLY what everyone (including yourself) just called Ush out for doing.

What I AM doing though, is confronting you on your skewered take on what's canon and what's bullshit. If Anakin's actions, words, and facial expressions (they exist, okay?) are the those of a clear-headed man who knows to think out and talk about everything that's been happening, before jumping to insane conclusions and attempting to kill your wife, unborn child, an best friend---then yes, you are absolutely right, and have been right the whole time.

If, however, you feel the above is the behaviour of a man who has f*cking lost it and can't tell friend from foe--to the point that killing his FriendFoe is all that drives him, then we are in agreement.

You can ask me to prove that Craig loves his wife all you want. And I'm just gonna keep telling you that he swallowed the hydrochloric acid to release her from the malevolent machinery. But nah, he really didn't like her.

Originally posted by truejedi
I do not have an argument, I am asking for proof of YOUR claim.

Well, you must understand that people may think you're actually making a counter-argument when you're trying to refute the evidence that people have been giving.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

My side (the grandest of the two--we have business cards) has A.) Anakin weeping, B.) delusions of grandeur, C.) irrational accusations, D.) telekinetic assault on the very pregnant love of his life for whom he has quite literally sacrificed all for and E.) a prolonged attempt to kill his best friend.

Those are the reasons why I think known that Anakin was emotionally unstable, wrong in the head, unable to to think with a clear and rational mind, and unable to purge from his thoughts a driving rage which overcame all reason.

Fixed.

Grammar Nazi fail. It's 'know' not 'known' Slash.

I have no idea what that 'n' is doing there. You hacked into my account and made that mistake yourself. Admit it!

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I have no idea what that 'n' is doing there. You hacked into my account and made that mistake yourself. Admit it!

Originally posted by mattatom
If i hacked your account, it wouldn't of been a mistake, it would of been an act of sabotage, you lose again good sir 😉

So you now admit to have sabotaged my word.

Reported.

Also, when you are referring to yourself using the word I, it is always written with a capital i.

Originally posted by mattatom
If i hacked your account, it wouldn't have of been a mistake, it would haveof been an act of sabotage; you lose again good sir. 😉

Fixed! You ALL fail!!! gunsmilie

Lucien I must and I rarely disagree with you. When Anakin slaughtered the Jedi in the Temple and the seperatists on Mustafar, he didn't automatically switch to the mentality "well, I'm a Sith Lord and I do this this and that that without question." The kid was confused in the tear scene and possibly thinking "what the hell am I doing? Am I doing the right thing?" It was only until his perceived Padme's betrayal when he lost it.

Nobody is in their proper state of mind when their girlfriend or wife dumps them. That may have been the true breaking point for him. When my ex-fiance cheated on me and I dumped her, I wasn't myself for 6 months. I suffered clinical depression. That was another reason why he lost control in my opinion - he was pissed and he had to take it out on someone and Obi-Wan just happened to be there. Or it was symbolic that in order to achieve Sith Lord status the apprentice must kill the Master and who was Anakin/Vader's first Master? Obi-Wan, but instead he lost due to his reckless and rageaholic fighting.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
...It was only until his perceived Padme's betrayal when he lost it.

Prove it!! Prove that he wasn't a mental train wreck before his perceived betrayal by Padme.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Lucien I must and I rarely disagree with you. When Anakin slaughtered the Jedi in the Temple and the seperatists on Mustafar, he didn't automatically switch to the mentality "well, I'm a Sith Lord and I do this this and that that without question." The kid was confused in the tear scene and possibly thinking "what the hell am I doing? Am I doing the right thing?" It was only until his perceived Padme's betrayal when he lost it.

Nobody is in their proper state of mind when their girlfriend or wife dumps them. That may have been the true breaking point for him. When my ex-fiance cheated on me and I dumped her, I wasn't myself for 6 months. I suffered clinical depression. That was another reason why he lost control in my opinion - he was pissed and he had to take it out on someone and Obi-Wan just happened to be there. Or it was symbolic that in order to achieve Sith Lord status the apprentice must kill the Master and who was Anakin/Vader's first Master? Obi-Wan, but instead he lost due to his reckless and rageaholic fighting.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
So you now admit to have sabotaged my word.

Reported.

Also, when you are referring to yourself using the word I, it is always written with a capital i.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Fixed! You ALL fail!!! gunsmilie

Yes I do Lucien and you always make extremely valid points and great smart-ass jokes. Always lightens my mood when I'm pissed off.

Jinsoku Takai - before Anakin aided Sidious in taking out Windu, he was torn on what to do: "save" Padme or fufill his duty to the Jedi Order by killing the Sith Lord. He was conflicted torn and crying - even in Sid's office he was having trouble making up his mind.

Originally posted by truejedi

Source for that bold generality? First, I will say: That isn't common sense at all: Look at Luke in ROTJ. Look at any professional athlete: IF you are playing tennis and start thinking about the swing, rather than let instinct take over, you will fail.

Slash KMC has already explained this far more eloquently, but I'll toss this in anyway.

You are not making any sense. Having a clear head (perhaps it would be better to say a clear HEART) doesn't mean thinking about each move (indeed the very words "clear head" state that it ISN'T filled with thoughts); it just means you don't have something weighing on your mind, or you do but you're able to keep those thoughts/feelings from distracting you.

If you are playing tennis and you are having troubles with your significant other, then you won't do as well as if you were not.

So yes, that is common sense.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Slash KMC has already explained this far more eloquently, but I'll toss this in anyway.

You are not making any sense. Having a clear head (perhaps it would be better to say a clear HEART) doesn't mean thinking about each move (indeed the very words "clear head" state that it ISN'T filled with thoughts); it just means you don't have something weighing on your mind, or you do but you're able to keep those thoughts/feelings from distracting you.

If you are playing tennis and you are having troubles with your significant other, then you won't do as well as if you were not.

So yes, that is common sense.

Right on sub-zero monkey boy! Hell, just look at Tiger Woods... the (former) best in the world is now having great difficulty even qualifying for a large number of tournaments; All because of his trouble with his now former wife.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I see a lot people say that ROS Anakin was not in a good state of mind to fight Kenobi. Thus by that premise of people, they draw the conclusion that Kenobi couldn't have beat a Anakin in the right state of mind.. My issue is this... He knew he didn't kill his love.. He said very clearly he felt her alive when he released her. So it wasn't like he knew she was dead. Yes he had turned to the DS not that long before but he had already started down that path and I didn't see any narration that indicates he was debating about which side he wanted to be on. He committed himself to the darkside already. If he could kill Mace.. Kill young jedi's do you really think he was THAT torn about killing Kenobi? Even if I concede he was a little, certainly not enough to warrant this Anakin was mind f'd theory people keep talking about. He felt OB1 turned his love against him.. he had reason to get rid of him. He had NO issue getting rid of kids who did nothing to him. So please explain to me where i'm wrong here and how it's such a big mind f for Anakin that he could only fight in a horrible manner?

Lets look at the fight... General G is considered a very proficient duelist and has done VERY WELL against some acclaimed Jedi. He certainly has a higher per strike ratio than Anakin. Yet, OB1 methodically used his defense to find opening and cut arm after arm from The General. He beat him MUCH MUCH quicker than Anakin. Anakin he couldn't find such openings.. the fight went on HOW LONG? If he beat Anakin quickly.. sure we could say Anakin wasn't right.. However, that wasn't the case Anakin fought well and made Ob1 work very very hard. for the win. I saw no evidence that his skills were diminished in anyway.
technicly ob1 DID NOT defaet general g ,because he was walking over to finish ob1 when the dumb clones landed an destracted him then ob1 USED THE FORCE PULL AND SHOT HIM UNAWARE. OB is dead with out the force pull, note that ever mager battle ob1 has one he slyly used th force pull.think about starwars if darth maul had killed ob1 from th first battle
To go further and build on my first paragraph. If anybody was more conflicted it was Kenobi more so than Anakin. Kenobi didn't have the rage blinding him like Anakin did. He would have more reservations about killing Anakin than Anakin would have about killing kenobi for all the reasons listed above. So if anything Kenobi was more conflicted. Yet I keep seeing this imo unsubstantiated myth that Anakin was a total wreck and that is the reason why Kenobi won. Kenobi won because he was better that day. He knew Anakin in a out. He used Anakin over confidence against him. He didn't BEAT him cause Anakin's mind was a mess. If you believe this is the reason why he beat Anakin please address the points made above. If not, lets disspell this notion that Kenobi only won because Anakin was a mess.