I'm curious about something....

Originally posted by Mshinu
Umm, no. Obiwan allowed himself to be struck down.

It is also interesting to note that Vader at this point himself states he was "but a student" last time they fought.
Wiser now, even he himself has realized he was not all that.

Shut up. I was merely saying that one cannot prove Obi-Wan would win even if Anakin was as clear-headed like before he decided to go all Sith and Stupid. Maybe he would've had the sanity to not take the leap, maybe he woudn't have, we don't know. But most likely he wouldn't have if he was thinking clearly.

Point is, as the Canadian and chilled monkey have pointed out, Anakin wasn't in the same state of mind while fighting Obi-Wan as he was while fighting Dooku. If one chooses to ignore the obvious pieces of evidence in the movie, then they are hopeless.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Shut up.

Excuse me?

I was merely saying that one cannot prove Obi-Wan would win even if Anakin was as clear-headed like before he decided to go all Sith and Stupid. Maybe he would've had the sanity to not take the leap, maybe he woudn't have, we don't know. But most likely he wouldn't have if he was thinking clearly.

Point is, as the Canadian and chilled monkey have pointed out, Anakin wasn't in the same state of mind while fighting Obi-Wan as he was while fighting Dooku. If one chooses to ignore the obvious pieces of evidence in the movie, then they are hopeless.

You seem to be ignoring quite a bit of evidence yourself.

The state of mind Anakin acheived in the fight with Dooku was special, there is nothing to suggest he would be able to get there without Palps nearby. Also, he only entered that state for a few seconds and there is no evidence he cold keep it up for a prolonged fight with Obiwan. It is indentical to Luke defeating Vader, something that would only occur under a specific set of circumstances. Vader would massacer that Luke in a straight up fight.

What is SHOWN in RotS is a very impressive duel betwen Obi and Ani, there is little to suggest either are less than at their finest. Actually Anakin seems to be faster than ever, the cause implied to be him turning to the dark side.

Anakin made the jump because of arrogance. "You underestimate my power" Lucas even states as much in the commentary. Later in life he grew wiser as Vader, but Ani was always overconfident in his abilities. Remember he tried to take dooku alone as a padawan? Look at his entire life and he has a history of doing reckless things, admittedly often suceeding.
Speaking of Dooku, Anakin`s trust in his abilities in this fight pretty much echo Dooku fighting Youa in AOTC. Both believed they had grown more powerful than their masters and they are proven wrong.
"I have grown more powerful than any Jedi. Even you!"
"Much to learn you still have"

And about the much wanked "Zone Anakin" he would definately beat Obiwan unless Obi was able to go "Zone Obiwan" too. This state of mind is pretty much the holy grail of various martial arts and schools of meditation, called no-mind or mushin or whatever.
Given the extremely few times any Jedi has been able to get there, I think a darkside Ani`s chanses are extremely small. Did Vader ever do this?

Originally posted by Mshinu
Excuse me?

You seem to be ignoring quite a bit of evidence yourself.

The state of mind Anakin acheived in the fight with Dooku was special, there is nothing to suggest he would be able to get there without Palps nearby. Also, he only entered that state for a few seconds and there is no evidence he cold keep it up for a prolonged fight with Obiwan. It is indentical to Luke defeating Vader, something that would only occur under a specific set of circumstances. Vader would massacer that Luke in a straight up fight.

What is SHOWN in RotS is a very impressive duel betwen Obi and Ani, there is little to suggest either are less than at their finest. Actually Anakin seems to be faster than ever, the cause implied to be him turning to the dark side.

Anakin made the jump because of arrogance. "You underestimate my power" Lucas even states as much in the commentary. Later in life he grew wiser as Vader, but Ani was always overconfident in his abilities. Remember he tried to take dooku alone as a padawan? Look at his entire life and he has a history of doing reckless things, admittedly often suceeding.
Speaking of Dooku, Anakin`s trust in his abilities in this fight pretty much echo Dooku fighting Youa in AOTC. Both believed they had grown more powerful than their masters and they are proven wrong.
"I have grown more powerful than any Jedi. Even you!"
"Much to learn you still have"

And about the much wanked "Zone Anakin" he would definately beat Obiwan unless Obi was able to go "Zone Obiwan" too. This state of mind is pretty much the holy grail of various martial arts and schools of meditation, called no-mind or mushin or whatever.
Given the extremely few times any Jedi has been able to get there, I think a darkside Ani`s chanses are extremely small. Did Vader ever do this?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Uh... he didn't say anything contrary to that. he just said there's no proof that Kenobi would beat Anakin in their respective natural states. And he's right, there's no proof. For either-or.

There is no proof naturally, but this brings up the question what "natural state" Anakin is supposed to be.

Originally posted by Mshinu
There is no proof naturally, but this brings up the question what "natural state" Anakin is supposed to be.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Pretty much the Anakin before he executed Dooku, before he was encouraged to use his fury, and before he started having visions of his wife dieing. The one we see throughout the various Clone Wars media. The one who was tag-teaming Dooku--even the Anakin that got all pissed off at Dooku for taking down Kenobi I'd say is still his naturally aggressive, yet rather restrained self.

Well I guess we can use Anakin before he turned fully to the dark side. I was thinking more along the lines of a dark side Anakin without the grief.

I don`t think pre darksider Anakin would take Obiwan for a majority. Like most who turn to the dark side Ani seemed to get a boost of power in the process. Obi was still able to fend him off in an extended fight.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Well I guess we can use Anakin before he turned fully to the dark side. I was thinking more along the lines of a dark side Anakin without the grief.

I don`t think pre darksider Anakin would take Obiwan for a majority. Like most who turn to the dark side Ani seemed to get a boost of power in the process. Obi was still able to fend him off in an extended fight.

I have NEVER SAID he wasn't emotional or had stuff going on in his mind at the time. In fact, I've conceded this was probably the case. I saw probably, and been pointing out simply there IS NO narration that back up that claim. I've further made the point that kenobi ALSO had a variety of emotions going on in his head. He was being sent to kill his brother, his son in a sense, a person who killed innocent children, who took the side of the one group he swore to destroy. I'm sure he had feelings of anger, guilt, sadness etc etc. The narration makes it clear that he does. SO THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT

Kenobi also was dealing emotional turmoil and still pwned an anakin dealing with emotional turmoil. You guys would have a leg to stand on if the movie showed anakin getting tooled easily and quickly. However, the movie shows the EXACT OPPOSITE of that. That why your reasoning that anakin fought clouded and not well because of his emotions is totally not substantiated by narration and not shown in the least via the highest canon source. As point out and what you guys can't get around and so you try and divert the attention away from that fact. Obi beat and tooled a G.G. who went toe to toe with Mace and far far better Jedi swordsman than Anakin. He cut him down limb by limb and quickly. Against Anakin there WAS NO EASY FIGHT OR OPENINGS. So logic, on panel narration and the movie make it clear he was fighting very well and did very well. NOt some emotional mess who's skills were effected. The argument isn't whether he was emotional or not.. the argument has ALWAYS been that whether he was or wasn't KENOBI ALSO WAS and it didn't EFFECT his fighting ability. You have zero proof it did and all the proof lies in my corner. That is why you guys choose to change the focus and divert attention and say I don't get it. You can't refute that sentence in the least with any evidence and that is why you've lost this debate a long time ago

I believe that it wasn't so much that ROTS Anakin Skywalker messed up in the head, but that his arrogance of his own overestimation of his "New Powers" is what led to Obi-Wan being able to defeat Anakin. Obi-Wan was about as best of an overall Jedi that a Jedi could be. I believe that even in their fighting that Obi-Wan would hope that Anakin would turn back to the Light Side.

Obi-Wan had a lot of Qui-Gon in him especially when it came to the living force and that is why he did not kill Anakin when he had the chance. However, I don't beleive for one second that Yoda would not have killed Anakin, the first opportunity that he had he would have killed him.

Anakin allowed his arrogance and pride to prevent his victory over Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I have NEVER SAID he wasn't emotional or had stuff going on in his mind at the time. In fact, I've conceded this was probably the case. I saw probably, and been pointing out simply there IS NO narration that back up that claim.

This is irrelevant. I can point out that there’s no narration backing up that Anakin and Padmé had sex. What would I accomplish with that. Nothing.

I've further made the point that kenobi ALSO had a variety of emotions going on in his head. He was being sent to kill his brother, his son in a sense, a person who killed innocent children, who took the side of the one group he swore to destroy. I'm sure he had feelings of anger, guilt, sadness etc etc. The narration makes it clear that he does. SO THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT(.) Kenobi also was dealing emotional turmoil and still pwned an anakin dealing with emotional turmoil.

Of course Kenobi isn’t a droid and had an emotional experience. But it was obviously worse for Anakin.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'll repeat this for the last time: those narrative lines on Kenobi's thoughts, the ones where he gave up his hopes and fears, the line where he let go of is blind attachment to Anakin--- that is not the description of a conflicted man. That is a determined man, who is willing to do what he now knows is necessary. "It was a place he decided they should reach together." He was accepting his death. That is the Jedi way, and Obi-Wan was embracing it fully. He was not conflicted.

Would this be said about Anakin? No, Anakin was a loose cannon, he had just betrayed everything he loved (except for Sidious). Obi-Wan stayed true to his ideals and remained absolutely rational.

You guys would have a leg to stand on if the movie showed anakin getting tooled easily and quickly. However, the movie shows the EXACT OPPOSITE of that. That why your reasoning that anakin fought clouded and not well because of his emotions is totally not substantiated by narration and not shown in the least via the highest canon source. As point out and what you guys can't get around and so you try and divert the attention away from that fact.

Stop ignoring us wall.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I’m not saying he was less powerful !!

A boxer in the ring who has just lost his wife still doesn’t lose his muscles, but he won’t perform as before. Anakin had trained with Obi-Wan for 13 years and has the highest midichlorian count ever. These are two reasons unrelated to his state of mind that contribute to him not getting tooled.

Obi beat and tooled a G.G. who went toe to toe with Mace and far far better Jedi swordsman than Anakin. He cut him down limb by limb and quickly. Against Anakin there WAS NO EASY FIGHT OR OPENINGS. So logic, on panel narration and the movie make it clear he was fighting very well and did very well. NOt some emotional mess who's skills were effected. The argument isn't whether he was emotional or not.. the argument has ALWAYS been that whether he was or wasn't KENOBI ALSO WAS and it didn't EFFECT his fighting ability. You have zero proof it did and all the proof lies in my corner. That is why you guys choose to change the focus and divert attention and say I don't get it. You can't refute that sentence in the least with any evidence and that is why you've lost this debate a long time ago

Kenobi was most fitting to fight Grievous. If anybody could give the quote, it would be appreciated. So how does the Kenobi-Grievous fight relate to the Kenobi-Anakin in any way? Think before you try to make a comparison. Your proof that Anakin performed like he did against Dooku is that he couldn’t easily beat Obi-Wan??? Right.

You’re still very annoying.

Originally posted by yoda725
I believe that it wasn't so much that ROTS Anakin Skywalker messed up in the head, but that his arrogance of his own overestimation of his "New Powers" is what led to Obi-Wan being able to defeat Anakin. Obi-Wan was about as best of an overall Jedi that a Jedi could be. I believe that even in their fighting that Obi-Wan would hope that Anakin would turn back to the Light Side.

Obi-Wan had a lot of Qui-Gon in him especially when it came to the living force and that is why he did not kill Anakin when he had the chance. However, I don't beleive for one second that Yoda would not have killed Anakin, the first opportunity that he had he would have killed him.

Anakin allowed his arrogance and pride to prevent his victory over Obi-Wan Kenobi.

This is also a factor why Anakin 'in the zone' would perform better than at the end of RotS.

Originally posted by yoda725
I believe that it wasn't so much that ROTS Anakin Skywalker messed up in the head, but that his arrogance of his own overestimation of his "New Powers" is what led to Obi-Wan being able to defeat Anakin. Obi-Wan was about as best of an overall Jedi that a Jedi could be. I believe that even in their fighting that Obi-Wan would hope that Anakin would turn back to the Light Side.

Obi-Wan had a lot of Qui-Gon in him especially when it came to the living force and that is why he did not kill Anakin when he had the chance. However, I don't beleive for one second that Yoda would not have killed Anakin, the first opportunity that he had he would have killed him.

Anakin allowed his arrogance and pride to prevent his victory over Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Just a heads up, in case you already (apparently) didn't know, the "I believe" and "I don't believe" stuff won't fly in these here forums. Canon is all that matters here, unless something so overwhelmingly obvious that it simply doesn't need to spelled out word for word.

It's a valiant effort, Slash, but it's in vain. The boy just won't accept it.

I'm trying to break the wall.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I have NEVER SAID he wasn't emotional or had stuff going on in his mind at the time. In fact, I've conceded this was probably the case. I saw probably, and been pointing out simply there IS NO narration that back up that claim. I've further made the point that kenobi ALSO had a variety of emotions going on in his head. He was being sent to kill his brother, his son in a sense, a person who killed innocent children, who took the side of the one group he swore to destroy. I'm sure he had feelings of anger, guilt, sadness etc etc. The narration makes it clear that he does. SO THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT

Kenobi also was dealing emotional turmoil and still pwned an anakin dealing with emotional turmoil.

Okay, I KNOW I'm wasting my time, but what the heck.

You do realise, don't you, that not every person is identical? Some people are better at dealing with emotional turmoil than others.

Sure, Kenobi had feelings of anger, guilt, sadness etc but he wasn't overwhelmed by them or as heavily influenced by them as Anakin was.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You guys would have a leg to stand on if the movie showed anakin getting tooled easily and quickly.

Um, why? He still has his power, skills, swordsmanship etc. He was still a dangerous opponent, just not at his best.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
However, the movie shows the EXACT OPPOSITE of that. That why your reasoning that anakin fought clouded and not well...

Whoah, whoah, whoah. No one ever said he wasn't fighting well. He was still a formiddable oppoent, just not as good as he'd be if he had a clear mind.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Against Anakin there WAS NO EASY FIGHT OR OPENINGS. So logic, on panel narration and the movie make it clear he was fighting very well and did very well. NOt some emotional mess who's skills were effected.

Again, he was fighting well, no one's denying that. All we're saying is that he wasn't at his best. His skills WERE effected, just not to the point that he was easily beaten.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The argument isn't whether he was emotional or not.. the argument has ALWAYS been that whether he was or wasn't KENOBI ALSO WAS and it didn't EFFECT his fighting ability.

Again, some people are better at not letting their emotions effect them than others.

To give a non-Star Wars example, take Duncan MacLeod (Highlander). Sometimes he's fought Immortals who've killed people he loved. Clearly he's going to feel a sense of anger that he doesn't feel towards other opponents who haven't wronged him to the same degree. But because he has strong mental discipline he doesn't let those feelings affect him.

Kenobi has that kind of discipline. Anakin didn't.

hmmm... one valid point, there is also an "In teh zone" Kenobi. Is this him?

Originally posted by truejedi
hmmm... one valid point, there is also an "In teh zone" Kenobi. Is this him?

Is there?

Kenobi was lucid while using the Dark Side? When?

And... wtf IS up with your avatar. Damn twisted Canadian! lol

Kenobi was in teh zone when he dueed griveous, he became an "avatar of the force" iirc