Originally posted by cdtm
For what it's worth, a mook GL also manipulated the essence of Swamp Thing. Actually bottled it up in a construct.Yes, it's not a Hal feat, but it wasn't portrayed as requiring special knowledge or skill, or beyond any competant GL.
Back in those days, a rookie GL teleported and opened/closed black holes like it was nothing.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I dare you to show me why something from the 1980s of Marvel, where there isn't a company-wide retcon of entire histories makes that feat just as unusable as something from the 1930s-60s of DC.
Personally, I'm all for separating things like, say, 60's-70's Superman from 80's Superman.
Yeah, Marvel doesn't have an actual event retconning much of their history, so you can't really argue Marvels history should be held to the same line. It's simply not a line that exists..
I do agree there's reasons on a case by case basis in both companies to say "Yeah, this isn't relevant anymore" though. Say, when Odin was portrayed as above Big G, when that's clearly not the case anymore. (On the flipside, do you make a hard line case against pre crisis feats, even when a character history wasn't noticeably affected by the event, or has an unaltered history that extends into the pre crisis,, and continued into the modern era?)
And for the record, I wouldn't discount Thor pushing back Juggernaut with the godblast.
Originally posted by cdtmYes. Because the most applicable character you can think of, Kal-L, isn't accidentally sneezing away galaxies.
(On the flipside, do you make a hard line case against pre crisis feats, even when a character history wasn't noticeably affected by the event, or has an unaltered history that extends into the pre crisis,, and continued into the modern era?)
Let's not miss the forest for the trees.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yes. Because the most applicable character you can think of, Kal-L, isn't accidentally sneezing away galaxies.Let's not miss the forest for the trees.
He wasn't sneezing away galaxies in the 80's either, though.
And how about the New Gods? Canonically speaking, they're supposed to have been exempt from the effects of the Crisis.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I didn't claim it should or shouldn't be usable. The GL were not retconned. So using feats from the 60s and 70s is the same as using a Marvel character's feats from the 60s and 70s. No one talks about Marvel fans who do that. But when D.C. fans do it validly for the GL people want to complain.
I dare you to show me why something from the 1980s of Marvel, where there isn't a company-wide retcon of entire histories makes that feat just as unusable as something from the 1930s-60s of DC.
I'm not crying. I'm just showing the hypocrisy here. For years people use old feats and no one really said anything about it, because it's canon. Well, the GL are still canon too. Why cry when someone uses their PC feats when you used Marvel old feats? My argument ALL the time was the location of the best feats and not who is more powerful on average. You see my first quote on you agreed to your notion. Yet you continue to argue a point I agreed on from jump street. Why? The point of this debate is to show that most (if not all) members at one point have went back and supported a character with an old feat. Let's not get sidetracked here; for that is what this debate is about.
Other than the crybaby attitude. And stop moving the goalpost. Now your focus is only on the absolute highest showings of strength? I already pointed you towards the absolute highest showings of overall power, post-00s. And your supposed main beef was about one-time exotic one-shot powers.
Again insects feats you are posting. Destroying the Asteroid twice the size of Earth dwarfs any quantifiable feat Hulk has ever done. The secret wars thing is also an insect to that. Thor lifting Midgard Serpent dwarfs any quantifiable feat he has done.
Either you can't focus your arguments or you're trying to deflect from your own butt-hurt. More deflection. Hulk holding back and nearly breaking the continental coastline with a footstep is not an insect strength feat compared to Secret Wars. Hulk struggled to brace a 50 billion ton mountain? He JUST took a 100 trillion ton punch to the gut to nearly NO EFFECT.
I'm not referring to the Galaxy feat but the 1/5 universe feat which occurred in the 80s.
Acting like January of 1990 is this unassailable crystal-sheen era of pure unquestionableness for feats as opposed to September of 1989 (yes, that's when Thor absorbed the Galaxy-ending Null Bomb's energies) is idiotic. It isn't just arbitrary. It's idiotic. Before you graced us with your position, the arguments being peppered across the forums were that anything pre-1980s was unusable. Then all the butt-hurt fans realized that a crapload of feats they wanted retconned from Marvel were actually from the 1980s. So the goal-post got moved to the 1990s.
I don't mind only using feats post 1990. I just don't like when others are allowed to use Marvel pre 1990 feats and others can't for the GL (which PC feats are still canon). Either allow both or disallow both. My main point is to show the hypocrisy of some (or a) marvel fan here who once used such old feats and now is crying when someone does so for the GLs.
Everyone use to argue that (the time travel thing was a mistake still brought up by them, they forgot Thor lost the power). Where you been dude? Of course they don't argue it as much now but they have. In a forum debate a member claimed Thor can't be snuck up on bc he has super hearing (that is the truth I kid you not). Another member said he can put someone to sleep or take away his powers like he did Hyperion to support their debate. Where have you been? Another member claimed he can take away Superman's or DD's soul (I forgot which one) and posted a scan from before 1990. I don't care if Thor also did it after 1990 as it still is rare and they showed a pre 1990 scan. The more you post the more I believe someone hacked your account. The mere nerve to even insinuate that no one has argued that sh!t before. I went through hell debating against those people. Soijer (if I'm not mistaken) was one of the members who I most remembered (he was a good debater) even argued that sh!t against me.
But now it's gotten so bad that you schnooks don't even realize this: you don't argue that a DC characters' post-Crisis (i.e., post-1986) feats must now be banished from being cited because its pre-1990. So how did the veracity of Marvel characters' post-1986-1990 feats (WHEN THERE WAS NO CRISIS) even get questioned? Since when have people argued that Thor strips Hal's or Superman's powers? Or put Hal or Superman to sleep? Thor used the soul-suck in the 90s, genius. Who argues that Thor can't be stopped without a 1/5th universe+ destroying blast? Thor's used matter manipulation in the 90s, genius. Who argues that Thor uses super hearing to win fights? Who argues that Thor wipes the memory of people? Who argues that Thor time travels? Thor can manipulate energy, genius, including magnetism. Thor BFRs sh1t, more than any other character, what exactly is your issue?
That sh1t got retconned. This isn't about digging around for feats. You're digging around for feats that didn't happen. You cry about not being able to use a pre-Crisis feat where Hal transmutes a nuclear bomb into confetti from March 1960 and then turn around and try to act like Thor never godblasted Juggernaut backwards in December 1989.The GL didn't get retconned. That's the only PC feats I use. I don't dare use anyone else's PC feats as I know they aren't valid. I think you confusing me with others. I never cry when someone uses old marvel feats (unless they are PIS). I except a lot of marvel's old feats. I have no problem with them. I'm just looking for fairness that's all. That mean's when the GLs pop up then no one should cry.
You misunderstood me.
Do you not see how stucking fupid that is? What in your mind, other than the overwhelmingly needless butt-hurt, to clouded your logic to such a degree that you lumped those two things together and acted like [b]we're being the hypocrites? [/B]
Originally posted by h1a8People aren't using feats from the 50s, 60s and 70s except for GL fans. It isn't valid for GLs because whatever arguments you want to make about them not being affected is horsecrap. Kal-L wasn't "affected" by the Crisis and he isn't sneezing away galaxies. Get over the fact that GLs are not nearly as powerful as they were back in the 50s, 60s and 70s. You don't like the past 30 years of GL comics? Don't read them.
I didn't claim it should or shouldn't be usable. The GL were not retconned. So using feats from the 60s and 70s is the same as using a Marvel character's feats from the 60s and 70s. No one talks about Marvel fans who do that. But when D.C. fans do it validly for the GL people want to complain.
Originally posted by h1a8You are spewing petulance that is either hypocritical or uneducated. Pre-Crisis feats =/= old Marvel feats. There's a god famn ducking difference that you keep deflecting from: the Crisis retconned sh1t away. The 1980s of Marvel wasn't retconned away, much less the 70s or even 60s.
I'm not crying. I'm just showing the hypocrisy here. For years people use old feats and no one really said anything about it, because it's canon. Well, the GL are still canon too. Why cry when someone uses their PC feats when you used Marvel old feats? My argument ALL the time was the location of the best feats and not who is more powerful on average. You see my first quote on you agreed to your notion. Yet you continue to argue a point I agreed on from jump street. Why? The point of this debate is to show that most (if not all) members at one point have went back and supported a character with an old feat. Let's not get sidetracked here; for that is what this debate is about.
Originally posted by h1a8Hulk destroying the asteroid twice the size of Earth was in Marvel Comics Presents #52. Published June 1990. EDUCATE YOURSELF. How many feats have you had to step back from in this thread alone with your own self-defeating, "Oooh... 90s are so good, only 90s stuff counts, I'd let a 90s feat boink my butt" rationale. And stop trying to act like this entire discussion revolves around strength. You're moving the goal-posts. Switching to whining about exotic one-time powers, to whining about character's overall power, to whining about feats of strength, and retreating to each category when arguments don't turn your way is only a reflection of the shoddy rationalizations you keep trying to make.
Again insects feats you are posting. Destroying the Asteroid twice the size of Earth dwarfs any quantifiable feat Hulk has ever done. The secret wars thing is also an insect to that. Thor lifting Midgard Serpent dwarfs any quantifiable feat he has done.I'm not referring to the Galaxy feat but the 1/5 universe feat which occurred in the 80s.
And NOBODY argues that Thor can't be defeated without a 1/5th universe+ destroying blast. Stop being such a crybaby over it being canon and pre-Crisis feats not being canon. They have NOTHING to do with each other.
Originally posted by h1a8Go make a thread that limits feats to the 90s then. This thread isn't it. Moreover, stop trying to act like it's the # of years that measure what's an appropriate feat or not. This is the same tired, insipid, sh1tty straw-manning deflection from the fact that this doesn't have to do with years. It has to do with the Crisis. The Crisis was a retcon. It is the most singularly hard and expansive example of a retcon there is, or ever was.
I don't mind only using feats post 1990. I just don't like when others are allowed to use Marvel pre 1990 feats and others can't for the GL (which PC feats are still canon). Either allow both or disallow both. My main point is to show the hypocrisy of some (or a) marvel fan here who once used such old feats and now is crying when someone does so for the GLs.
You don't like it? Don't read DC comics. GL feats pre-Crisis aren't canon for the same reasons the rest of DC got retconned: the adventures didn't happen or were retold, the feats were stupid and sh1tty, and GLs were already undergoing a massive trend towards diminishing their powers. You don't think the GLs were affected at all by the Crisis? I think you're a hypocrite or an idiot. Nobody reading the past 30 years of GL comics should have that opinion and whining about how GLs remember the Crisis doesn't change how Kal-L remembered it also and he ain't pre-Crisis levels. Far from it. No explanation. Just fact. And nobody gives two sh1ts about it because Kal-L isn't their favorite character. They only give a sh1t about Superman and GLs because they're not half as powerful as they'd like em to be. Y'know what? Get over it. Your transparent motives =/= cogent reasoning.
Originally posted by h1a8Nobody argues Thor time travels anymore. Don't bring up fake arguments. When one idiot says Thor hypnotizes a person in the 1980s, you criticize that person for using a one-time unreliable feat. You don't b1tch about it, then turn around and embrace it so you can surreptitiously reverse-justify your desire to bring up one-time feats from the pre-Crisis DC 1960s that got retconned, then continue b1tching about a 1989 Marvel feat. And Thor used the soul suck in the 90s. He never used it before the 90s. EDUCATE YOURSELF.
Everyone use to argue that (the time travel thing was a mistake still brought up by them, they forgot Thor lost the power). Where you been dude? Of course they don't argue it as much now but they have. In a forum debate a member claimed Thor can't be snuck up on bc he has super hearing (that is the truth I kid you not). Another member said he can put someone to sleep or take away his powers like he did Hyperion to support their debate. Where have you been? Another member claimed he can take away Superman's or DD's soul (I forgot which one) and posted a scan from before 1990. I don't care if Thor also did it after 1990 as it still is rare and they showed a pre 1990 scan. The more you post the more I believe someone hacked your account. The mere nerve to even insinuate that no one has argued that sh!t before. I went through hell debating against those people. Soijer (if I'm not mistaken) was one of the members who I most remembered (he was a good debater) even argued that sh!t against me.
Originally posted by h1a8This isn't fairness. This is people trying to avoid that the Crisis retconned sh1t away. 1980s Marvel feats =/= Crisis retcon. It's not fair to treat them the same way. It's idiotic. Exotic one-time unreliable powers =/= Crisis retcon. It's not fair to treat them the same way. It's idiotic. And you have a separate basis to argue against them... that they're exotic one-time unreliable powers. I treat someone arguing Superman's T-Vo matters as much as someone argues Thor uses super-breath. And the objectionality of it has nothing to do with the time-period.
The GL didn't get retconned. That's the only PC feats I use. I don't dare use anyone else's PC feats as I know they aren't valid. I think you confusing me with others. I never cry when someone uses old marvel feats (unless they are PIS). I except a lot of marvel's old feats. I have no problem with them. I'm just looking for fairness that's all. That mean's when the GLs pop up then no one should cry.You misunderstood me.
I understand you just fine. Your problem isn't with one-time exotic feats or with feats from the 60s-80s. Your problem is that your favorite characters aren't as powerful as they used to be. One has nothing to do with the other. Stop trying to conflate them.
^ Your definition of "canonicity" doesn't inflate the usability of any pre-Crisis feats. Particularly when modern retellings utterly retcon pre-Crisis events, e.g., Geoff Johns' Green Lantern: Origins storyline about the first meetings between Hal and Sinestro.
Fact remains: this definition of "canonicity" by virtue of memories and/or them being "unaffected by Crisis" doesn't change what's on-panel now. They're not anywhere near as powerful or versatile as they were pre-Crisis. This notion is epitomized poignantly by Kal-L if you can't recognize that the 30 past years of GL comics slam that point home as well.
That just goes to the logic underlying the entire position. It has nothing to do with the transparent motivations or uneducated blase attitude towards whether Thor, Surfer and Hulk were more powerful pre-1990s or not.
On that last nonsensical point, h1a8, we presently stand at the notion that people can't talk about Thor lifting the World Serpent or containing a 1/5th universe-destroying blast. Well golly, guess all those pro-Thor arguments that Thor can never be defeated by less than planetary weight strength or less than 1/5th universe busting blasts shouldn't be used anymore.
That's it? That was your problem the entire time? I'll gladly never use those two arguments as long as you don't bring up pre-Crisis schlock. Deal?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Your definition of "canonicity" doesn't inflate the usability of any pre-Crisis feats. Particularly when modern retellings utterly retcon pre-Crisis events, e.g., Geoff Johns' Green Lantern: Origins storyline about the first meetings between Hal and Sinestro.Fact remains: this definition of "canonicity" by virtue of memories and/or them being "unaffected by Crisis" doesn't change what's on-panel now. They're not anywhere near as powerful or versatile as they were pre-Crisis. This notion is epitomized poignantly by Kal-L if you can't recognize that the 30 past years of GL comics slam that point home as well.
That just goes to the logic underlying the entire position. It has nothing to do with the transparent motivations or uneducated blase attitude towards whether Thor, Surfer and Hulk were more powerful pre-1990s or not.
On that last nonsensical point, h1a8, we presently stand at the notion that people can't talk about Thor lifting the World Serpent or containing a 1/5th universe-destroying blast. Well golly, guess all those pro-Thor arguments that Thor can never be defeated by less than planetary weight strength or less than 1/5th universe busting blasts shouldn't be used anymore.
That's it? That was your problem the entire time? I'll gladly never use those two arguments as long as you don't bring up pre-Crisis schlock. Deal?
they don't need to be inflated or anything of the sort. if people wish to use them and they are in the realm of the current incarnation of the character, they're allowed to be used (even though i wouldn't recommend it).
i didn't say ALL feats were allowed, did i?
we both know that the crisis itself had nothing to do with power levels seemingly decreasing.
Originally posted by -Pr-You may believe that. I can't ignore the suspicious (if not conspicuous) coincidence that every other character across the board went though power levels decreasing as a direct result of, or immediately following, the Crisis.
we both know that the crisis itself had nothing to do with power levels seemingly decreasing.
And we both know the Crisis is the exact reason that GLs don't go gallivanting around in time travel adventures.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Hulk is not busting asteroids twice the size of Earth nowadays either, yet people has used them. Where were you went people were using them? Do I smell hypocrite?
People aren't using feats from the 50s, 60s and 70s except for GL fans. It isn't valid for GLs because whatever arguments you want to make about them not being affected is horsecrap. Kal-L wasn't "affected" by the Crisis and he isn't sneezing away galaxies. Get over the fact that GLs are not nearly as powerful as they were back in the 50s, 60s and 70s.
Why you keep saying that. You are wrong. The GLs weren't retconned away. They are the only beings I'm talking about in D.C. (not D.C. as a whole).
You don't like the past 30 years of GL comics? Don't read them. You are spewing petulance that is either hypocritical or uneducated. Pre-Crisis feats =/= old Marvel feats. There's a god famn ducking difference that you keep deflecting from: the Crisis retconned sh1t away. The 1980s of Marvel wasn't retconned away, much less the 70s or even 60s.
Hulk destroying the asteroid twice the size of Earth was in Marvel Comics Presents #52. Published June 1990. EDUCATE YOURSELF.Good job but the principle of my point still stands (we are even now, I caught you in a falsehood and you caught me with an inaccuracy). 1990 is still close enough to the 80s to be relevant. The principle still stands as characters best feats are found before the 90s (The actual year 1990 is just arguing semantics).
How many feats have you had to step back from in this thread alone with your own self-defeating, "Oooh... 90s are so good, only 90s stuff counts, I'd let a 90s feat boink my butt" rationale. And stop trying to act like this entire discussion revolves around strength. You're moving the goal-posts. Switching to whining about exotic one-time powers, to whining about character's overall power, to whining about feats of strength, and retreating to each category when arguments don't turn your way is only a reflection of the shoddy rationalizations you keep trying to make.No. I still claim more exotic one time feats were before 1990. I still claim that a character's best quantifiable feats are found before (or around) 1990. I never made any claims about a character's overall power, that was all you dude. Where did I switch at?
Lies. Many Thor fans have argued it. You were either under a rock when it happened, forgot, are lying, or hacked into someone account and simply don't know.
And NOBODY argues that Thor can't be defeated without a 1/5th universe+ destroying blast. Stop being such a crybaby over it being canon and pre-Crisis feats not being canon. They have NOTHING to do with each other.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Again all I'm arguing is the GL and not D.C. as a whole. Your statement about being retconned is irrelevant.
Go make a thread that limits feats to the 90s then. This thread isn't it. Moreover, stop trying to act like it's the # of years that measure what's an appropriate feat or not. This is the same tired, insipid, sh1tty straw-manning deflection from the fact that this doesn't have to do with years. It has to do with the Crisis. The Crisis was a retcon. It is the most singularly hard and expansive example of a retcon there is, or ever was.You don't like it? Don't read DC comics. GL feats pre-Crisis aren't canon for the same reasons the rest of DC got retconned: the adventures didn't happen or were retold, the feats were stupid and sh1tty, and GLs were already undergoing a massive trend towards diminishing their powers. You don't think the GLs were affected at all by the Crisis?
I think you're a hypocrite or an idiot.A part time idiot is not an idiot, otherwise every human would be an idiot. Trust me, I'm not an idiot ALL the time. I'm not an hypocrite either. I'm willing to be fair. Don't use 70s 80s feats against me and then tell me I can't for the GL.
I don't know what you are referring to with the Kal L thing but it is irrelevent to my argument. I'm arguing that the same people who once argued old Marvel feats are crying about when others are arguing old GL feats.
Nobody reading the past 30 years of GL comics should have that opinion and whining about how GLs remember the Crisis doesn't change how Kal-L remembered it also and he ain't pre-Crisis levels. Far from it. No explanation. Just fact. And nobody gives two sh1ts about it because Kal-L isn't their favorite character. They only give a sh1t about Superman and GLs because they're not half as powerful as they'd like em to be.
Like you said no one is arguing Kal EL sneezing galaxies away but some argue Hulk busting asteroids and GL manipulating time. Which is worst busting an asteroid twice the size of Earth or manipulating time (where many characters past and present can do)?
I think you need to get your facts straight. Thor manipulated souls before 1990. Doesn't matter as proof wouldn't change your bias view in this argument. So if you want to see the proof you got to give me some incentive. Otherwise, I'm not going to waste my. I believed it as truth by the scan (was a newbie). Someone later bust them out saying that he doesn't have the power anymore. Who cares if they are idiots, Soijer wasn't an idiot. He was one of the best posters here at one time yet he sometimes argued OLD feats (some one time ones too).
Y'know what? Get over it. Your transparent motives =/= cogent reasoning. Nobody argues Thor time travels anymore. Don't bring up fake arguments. When one idiot says Thor hypnotizes a person in the 1980s, you criticize that person for using a one-time unreliable feat. You don't b1tch about it, then turn around and embrace it so you can surreptitiously reverse-justify your desire to bring up one-time feats from the pre-Crisis DC 1960s that got retconned, then continue b1tching about a 1989 Marvel feat. And Thor used the soul suck in the 90s. He never used it before the 90s. EDUCATE YOURSELF.
Again the GL wasn't retconned the same as Marvel as a whole not being retconned. This renders what you said irrelevant.
This isn't fairness. This is people trying to avoid that the Crisis retconned sh1t away. 1980s Marvel feats =/= Crisis retcon. It's not fair to treat them the same way. It's idiotic. Exotic one-time unreliable powers =/= Crisis retcon. It's not fair to treat them the same way. It's idiotic. And you have a separate basis to argue against them... that they're exotic one-time unreliable powers. I treat someone arguing Superman's T-Vo matters as much as someone argues Thor uses super-breath. And the objectionality of it has nothing to do with the time-period.
I don't care about who is more powerful on average. I go by feats. Feats are either valid, PIS (invalid), or non canon (invalid). People use and post singular feats to support their character. They don't post an entire character's history and talk about averages.
I understand you just fine. Your problem isn't with one-time exotic feats or with feats from the 60s-80s. Your problem is that your favorite characters aren't as powerful as they used to be. One has nothing to do with the other. Stop trying to conflate them.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You may believe that. I can't ignore the suspicious (if not conspicuous) coincidence that every other character across the board went though power levels decreasing as a direct result of, or immediately following, the Crisis.And we both know the Crisis is the exact reason that GLs don't go gallivanting around in time travel adventures.
i don't believe it is. i believe the reason they don't is the same reason superman isn't sneezing out galaxies or surfer isn't exploding solar systems or thor isn't absorbing galaxies worth of energy.
characters were already being depowered before the crisis. i think i even saw you mentioning it in another thread recently.
pretending kal-l is the rule rather than the exception seems a bit off, imo.
as far as the point goes and to what badabing said, if people really want us to unilaterally decide that no feats prior to 1990 can be used, i honestly don't know what'll happen.
Originally posted by -Pr-Thor absorbed the Null Bomb's energy in the 90s. Hulk busted the asteroid in the 90s.
i don't believe it is. i believe the reason they don't is the same reason superman isn't sneezing out galaxies or surfer isn't exploding solar systems or thor isn't absorbing galaxies worth of energy.characters were already being depowered before the crisis. i think i even saw you mentioning it in another thread recently.
pretending kal-l is the rule rather than the exception seems a bit off, imo.
as far as the point goes and to what badabing said, if people really want us to unilaterally decide that no feats prior to 1990 can be used, i honestly don't know what'll happen.
How does this fact make 60s and 70s feats more relevant? That specifically suggests that older pre-Crisis feats are irrelevant, not the reverse.
Pretending GLs are the exception to the rule seems way off to me. We've had this conversation before. Just GLs? Even though they share the same diminishment, extended near 30 years, that the rest of the DC universe did, purposefully or not, which is ALSO shared by Kal-L AND at least one of their abilities was explicitly affected by the Crisis on-panel?
I laff @ how the bar got moved from pre-1980s to pre-1990s. At this point, you're now dismissing DC's post-Crisis 1986-1990 history and all you're ending up with is dismissing out of hand Thor lifting the World Serpent and stopping a 1/5th universe-busting blast.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Back in those days, a rookie GL teleported and opened/closed black holes like it was nothing.
I've never understood why they're mook GLs to begin with. It's not like GLs are a race of superbeings where some might be less endowed than others, like the gods and other alien species.
Individually a GL represents one of the best possible users of a power ring in a whole civilization. That means they're the best of the best, they shouldn't be fodder.
Not to say they can't be killed in the line of duty, simply that we should expect them to at least occassionally do things that the Earth GLs can't. We should expect more than a few less known GLs to do something superheroic.