You cant see the lense shaped circle over the screen?
You need to use canon and logic, not gameplay mechanics or player controls....
Occams razor, the most logical option is usually the simplest. Canonically, the simplest and most logical option is that Link holds it, looks through it as its a looking glass, thats kinda the point and the "lense" on the screen when used in the gameplay kinda makes this clear.
Originally posted by Burning thought
I think anyone can fight in "mid air", or in this case a few feet up vertically. Its pretty much as high as a jump.
But can anyone fight on a giant trampolene while maintaining balance and keeping all accuracy with a bow?
Thats not much of an argument, its circular, I could argue the opposite and say he does not need a bow because he was holding the magnifying glass and therefore could not hold a bow. It works both ways, fact is we know he needed it, for all you know canonically he took a look with the lense and then fired his bow into the area (the main body of the boss does not move that fast).
You certainly could argue that, but it would not make any sense. In game canon, Link used both the Lens of Truth and Bow. How do you know that Bongo Bongo isn't fast in canon? For all you know he could have actually been dodging and weaving constantly and Link needed to use the Lens to see him and the Bow to shoot him. He's just slower in gameplay. The fact is that Link needed the Lens to see Bongo Bongo, and the Bow to shoot his eye, which is only visible while the Lens is active. Anything else is just you making it more complicated than it really is.
The Lens of Truth depletes magic when in use. That wouldn't happen if Link was just looking through it. It's a magic item, so logic need not apply, especially since the evidence suggests Link doesn't need to hold it.
So soon, Raziel will be invisible because Link will be fumbling iwth his little lense, trying to see Raziel and even thats probably pretty useless because if your on the edge of the glass your still invisbile. he would have to pretty much have to look almost straight at him. It would be a damn shame if Raziel just smashed it with a wave of his hand. [/B]
By the time Raziel has started his invisibility spell, Link will have already shot him with a Light, Fire, or Ice arrow, since it's slow and requires Raziel to stay in one place. Link won't even have to use the Lens. Hell, he can just throw a Deku Nut to paralyze/blind Raziel before cutting him to peices. And Majora's Mask items were allowed, right? Then Link can just become invisible with Stone Mask and use Raziel's trick against him.
Originally posted by The Scenario
But can anyone fight on a giant trampolene while maintaining balance and keeping all accuracy with a bow?You certainly could argue that, but it would not make any sense. In game canon, Link used both the Lens of Truth and Bow. How do you know that Bongo Bongo isn't fast in canon? For all you know he could have actually been dodging and weaving constantly and Link needed to use the Lens to see him and the Bow to shoot him. He's just slower in gameplay. The fact is that Link needed the Lens to see Bongo Bongo, and the Bow to shoot his eye, which is only visible while the Lens is active. Anything else is just you making it more complicated than it really is.
The Lens of Truth depletes magic when in use. That wouldn't happen if Link was just looking through it. It's a magic item, so logic need not apply, especially since the evidence suggests Link doesn't need to hold it.
By the time Raziel has started his invisibility spell, Link will have already shot him with a Light, Fire, or Ice arrow, since it's slow and requires Raziel to stay in one place. Link won't even have to use the Lens. Hell, he can just throw a Deku Nut to paralyze/blind Raziel before cutting him to peices. And Majora's Mask items were allowed, right? Then Link can just become invisible with Stone Mask and use Raziel's trick against him.
I should think so if the only "bouncing" a short distance is in the beginning, looking at the video again Link only moves at the start, if he does it later then can you show me the times?
Why would you assume or belive he is faster in canon? and technically that is canon, but his speed is not a gameplay mechanic. Well it would, because Link has to activate it, how he activiates it I dont know, squeezing the handle? point being is that its activated, so my logic would be that he holds it, looks through it and then activates it. No evidence suggests that, only gameplay mechanics suggests that.
its not slow by any means, about 1 second, I have never seen a cutscene of Link fireing an arrow, assuming he had his bow ready from the start. A thrown nut? hows he going to hit Raziel with that unless Raziel uses a reaver nearby and he takes the 1 second to ready a nut? that would be useful if it was not for the fact most of Raziels powers were AOE and the fact Raziel can see invisible things, e.g. Elder God.
Originally posted by Burning thought
I should think so if the only "bouncing" a short distance is in the beginning, looking at the video again Link only moves at the start, if he does it later then can you show me the times?
Nah.
YouTube video
There's one at 0:38 and another at 0:58. That's Link firing his bow accurately in mid air, and not disoriented at all.
Why would you assume or belive he is faster in canon? and technically that is canon, but his speed is not a gameplay mechanic. Well it would, because Link has to activate it, how he activiates it I dont know, squeezing the handle? point being is that its activated, so my logic would be that he holds it, looks through it and then activates it. No evidence suggests that, only gameplay mechanics suggests that.
Why would you assume Link actually pulled out the Lens, looked through it, put it away, pulled out his bow, and only then fired in canon when there is absolutely nothing to indicate this? That's about as likely as Bongo Bongo actually being fast, which was the point I was maing. In canon, Bongo Bongo could have been in a different spot by that time. I'm going based off of what was shown, whereas you're making things up that don't make any sense logically.
It's a magic item, and we have seen Link use it at the same time as something that requires two hands to use. It's blatantly obvious that Link doesn't need his hands to use the Lens, because he couldn't have fought Bongo Bongo in the way he did if he was required to hold it.
its not slow by any means, about 1 second, I have never seen a cutscene of Link fireing an arrow, assuming he had his bow ready from the start. A thrown nut? hows he going to hit Raziel with that unless Raziel uses a reaver nearby and he takes the 1 second to ready a nut? that would be useful if it was not for the fact most of Raziels powers were AOE and the fact Raziel can see invisible things, e.g. Elder God.
If you're using gameplay time for Raziel using the spell, I can use gameplay time for Link pulling out his bow and firing an arrow, which he can do in less than a second. Oh, and Deku Nuts? They're AOE, too, releasing a bright flash that paralyzes anything nearby as soon as they hit the ground, and it takes less than a second to throw one. They're typically used by Ninja Shiekah to make an exit look like telporting. The Stone Mask makes Link "as uninteresting as a stone" so that people ignore him. It's not true invisibility, but it's the same thing with different means. Link really just becomes extremely boring, while still there, and might take on the appearance of a stone. Raziel might see him, but he'll just ignore him.
Originally posted by The Scenario
Nah.
YouTube videoThere's one at 0:38 and another at 0:58. That's Link firing his bow accurately in mid air, and not disoriented at all.
Why would you assume Link actually pulled out the Lens, looked through it, put it away, pulled out his bow, and only then fired in canon when there is absolutely nothing to indicate this? That's about as likely as Bongo Bongo actually being fast, which was the point I was maing. In canon, Bongo Bongo could have been in a different spot by that time. I'm going based off of what was shown, whereas you're making things up that don't make any sense logically.
It's a magic item, and we have seen Link use it at the same time as something that requires two hands to use. It's blatantly obvious that Link doesn't need his hands to use the Lens, because he couldn't have fought Bongo Bongo in the way he did if he was required to hold it.
If you're using gameplay time for Raziel using the spell, I can use gameplay time for Link pulling out his bow and firing an arrow, which he can do in less than a second. Oh, and Deku Nuts? They're AOE, too, releasing a bright flash that paralyzes anything nearby as soon as they hit the ground, and it takes less than a second to throw one. They're typically used by
NinjaShiekah to make an exit look like telporting. The Stone Mask makes Link "as uninteresting as a stone" so that people ignore him. It's not true invisibility, but it's the same thing with different means. Link really just becomes extremely boring, while still there, and might take on the appearance of a stone. Raziel might see him, but he'll just ignore him.
Thats Link fireing his bow while jumping basically, the small bounce in the gameplay (not canon, its play choice when he fires his bow in that vid) vid is not much higher than a jump.
no its not, assuming Bongo is randomly fast despite the game showing otherwise is not the same as assuming Link has to look through a looking glass to use it, especially when its activated anyway. They make complete sense, argue why Link looking through a Looking glass/lense does not make sense? its all viable, your the one claiming Link somehow with on a whim/with a thought activates the looking glass and somehow looks through it without actually doing so.
You ignored the point that Link could have taken a quick look through the lense before using his bow. Bongo is as I said very large and does not move quickly or often.
The difference is a bow can be gauged logically, Raziels spell is one thing thats scripted as part of a magic ability but when a bow is involved you have to pull back the string after choosing the arrow and the target, these things take time that gameplay mechanics do not account for. Also wheres the bow and arrow tactic coming from? give me a low down on what Link in your opinion is going to do and I will give you a counter for it because at the moment I dont know whether you think hes going to use a sword, a deku nut or a bow. Show me a Deku nut plz.
Raziels not the sharpest tool in the shed but if a little stone was following him around, making strange noises hes not going to ignore it especially when the intent of hte thread is to fight the opponent. Chances are he will TK it anyway. Are there canon uses of this ability so we can gauge how it actually works? it sounds like something you would use to avoid someone like Kains Beguile, not as part of a fight.
Also you realise that with a wave of his hand, Raziel can counter any tactics mentioned so far with TK. Hell in the time he tosses Link he can follow up before Link the hte ground/is ready with invisability or blinding. Also is there no cutscene of Link using his bow? I find that unlikely considering it seems important...
AYE! he has to hold it, and activate it somehow. Perhaps its "magic" does it automatically when it senses he is looking through it. That and among other unrepresented gameplay components such as those in his hammerspace (quiver and arrows) will have to be taken into account as gameplay mechanics are redundant.
Originally posted by Burning thoughtYes, and I'm sure the spell for ice arrows is also a physical object which Link needs to hold and activ-..Ohwait, no it isn't. 😐 The lens of truth does not work like a magnifying glass, nothing Link does with it would work if it did.
AYE! he has to hold it, and activate it somehow. Perhaps its "magic" does it automatically when it senses he is looking through it. That and among other unrepresented gameplay components such as those in his hammerspace (quiver and arrows) will have to be taken into account as gameplay mechanics are redundant.
I like how you added "spell", the lense of truth is not a spell. I dont know if ice arrows are spells or actual arrows, if their actual arrows then their not a spell and would indeed have to be held.
Thats what it is, a magnifying glass. And when activated in-game ,even the limited representation of it looks like your looking through a looking glass. Also if arrows are spells, the lense of truth "prevents the use of other magical abilities", so gj making Links "spell" arrows useless.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Thats Link fireing his bow while jumping basically, the small bounce in the gameplay (not canon, its play choice when he fires his bow in that vid) vid is not much higher than a jump.
No, Link's jump is much smaller, and Bongo Bongo is flinging him at least half his height in the air and Link remains able to accurately fire the bow, despite that being higher than jump height. I don't see why the height matters when Link has already established himself as a skilled mid air archer. And yes it's gameplay, but it is not a mechanic as you so love to point out.
no its not, assuming Bongo is randomly fast despite the game showing otherwise is not the same as assuming Link has to look through a looking glass to use it, especially when its activated anyway. They make complete sense, argue why Link looking through a Looking glass/lense does not make sense? its all viable, your the one claiming Link somehow with on a whim/with a thought activates the looking glass and somehow looks through it without actually doing so.
You're assuming Link has to look through a magic item despite the fact that he's also holding a bow. That's the part that makes no logical sense. I mean, your theory would work if Link hadn't canonically had to use two hands at the same time as the Lens. I'm just saying that evidence points to a magic item working some magic while Link holds a bow.
You ignored the point that Link could have taken a quick look through the lense before using his bow. Bongo is as I said very large and does not move quickly or often.
No, I did not ignore that point. In fact, I devoted several sentances to it. I told you that Link pulling out the Lens, looking through it, putting it back, pulling out his bow, and then firing at something he can't see is making things more complicated than they need to be. It was also what brought about the maybe Bongo Bongo is fast argument. Bongo Bongo might only be slow in gameplay, but not canon. I'm arguing we can only use what we see, and what we see is Link using the Lens and the bow, and Bongo Bongo being slow. You're arguing that we can make things up and ignore what we see, which leads to Link possibly needing to look through the Lens and Bongo Bongo possibly being lightspeed or otherwise very fast.
The difference is a bow can be gauged logically, Raziels spell is one thing thats scripted as part of a magic ability but when a bow is involved you have to pull back the string after choosing the arrow and the target, these things take time that gameplay mechanics do not account for. Also wheres the bow and arrow tactic coming from? give me a low down on what Link in your opinion is going to do and I will give you a counter for it because at the moment I dont know whether you think hes going to use a sword, a deku nut or a bow. Show me a Deku nut plz.
Well, Raziel actually needs to perform a very lengthy ritual for all his spells and that is time gameplay doesn't account for. That's the kind of thing you're doing when you ignore what we see in favor of things you just make up and then label "logical." The Lens of Truth, by evidence, is just a focus that Link uses while he uses magic to see the Truth. We don't see it on his eye or any change other than just seeing the Truth. And we do see Link pull out his bow and pull the string, but he does it very quickly, like a skilled archer. And to be honest, I was just posting things to counter Raziel, not say what Link was going to do. Link was the one countering here.
But since you asked, I suppose the most efficient combo would be Stone Mask --> Deku Nut --> Any attacking move. Or you switch the Deku Nut and Stone Mask, paralyzing Raziel long enough to give Link time to put the Stone Mask on. So it could go Deku Nut --> Stone Mask --> Deku Nut --> Any attack.
Anyway,
YouTube video
0:52-1:50. The guy's commentary is somewhat accurate. Deku Nuts paralyze enemies for a while, but attacks break them out of it. That's what it looks like from the outside, though.
YouTube video
1:55
As you can see, from the victim's perspective, the user disappears. But we know it's really paralysis and the victim isn't even conscious during it. Raziel won't know what happened before there's a sword through his skull.
Raziels not the sharpest tool in the shed but if a little stone was following him around, making strange noises hes not going to ignore it especially when the intent of hte thread is to fight the opponent. Chances are he will TK it anyway. Are there canon uses of this ability so we can gauge how it actually works? it sounds like something you would use to avoid someone like Kains Beguile, not as part of a fight.
YouTube video
5:40
Apparently this guy sat yelling and waving him arms at people for years and no one noticed him. For years. Words cannot describe how much that must suck. Though it seems I was wrong, he doesn't appear as a stone, you just don't notice him.
YouTube video
5:30 and just about everything after it.
No one will notice if you shoot a Gerudo and then take a picture of her unconcious form. That's supposed to be a stealth mission, but the Stone Mask makes it way too easy.
Also you realise that with a wave of his hand, Raziel can counter any tactics mentioned so far with TK. Hell in the time he tosses Link he can follow up before Link the hte ground/is ready with invisability or blinding. Also is there no cutscene of Link using his bow? I find that unlikely considering it seems important...
Can you show me this? Specifically, Raziel throwing someone with TK and then having time to turn invisible before they hit the ground/shoot him? And the binding, too, I guess? No, there aren't any cutscenes where Link pulls out his bow, but there are a few times a cutscene starts after Link fires an arrow, like 8:40 in the above video.
Originally posted by The Scenario
No, Link's jump is much smaller, and Bongo Bongo is flinging him at least half his height in the air and Link remains able to accurately fire the bow, despite that being higher than jump height. I don't see why the height matters when Link has already established himself as a skilled mid air archer. And yes it's gameplay, but it is not a mechanic as you so love to point out.You're assuming Link has to look through a magic item despite the fact that he's also holding a bow. That's the part that makes no logical sense. I mean, your theory would work if Link hadn't canonically had to use two hands at the same time as the Lens. I'm just saying that evidence points to a magic item working some magic while Link holds a bow.
No, I did not ignore that point. In fact, I devoted several sentances to it. I told you that Link pulling out the Lens, looking through it, putting it back, pulling out his bow, and then firing at something he can't see is making things more complicated than they need to be. It was also what brought about the maybe Bongo Bongo is fast argument. Bongo Bongo might only be slow in gameplay, but not canon. I'm arguing we can only use what we see, and what we see is Link using the Lens and the bow, and Bongo Bongo being slow. You're arguing that we can make things up and ignore what we see, which leads to Link possibly needing to look through the Lens and Bongo Bongo possibly being lightspeed or otherwise very fast.
Well, Raziel actually needs to perform a very lengthy ritual for all his spells and that is time gameplay doesn't account for. That's the kind of thing you're doing when you ignore what we see in favor of things you just make up and then label "logical." The Lens of Truth, by evidence, is just a focus that Link uses while he uses magic to see the Truth. We don't see it on his eye or any change other than just seeing the Truth. And we do see Link pull out his bow and pull the string, but he does it very quickly, like a skilled archer. And to be honest, I was just posting things to counter Raziel, not say what Link was going to do. Link was the one countering here.
But since you asked, I suppose the most efficient combo would be Stone Mask --> Deku Nut --> Any attacking move. Or you switch the Deku Nut and Stone Mask, paralyzing Raziel long enough to give Link time to put the Stone Mask on. So it could go Deku Nut --> Stone Mask --> Deku Nut --> Any attack.
Anyway,
YouTube video
0:52-1:50. The guy's commentary is somewhat accurate. Deku Nuts paralyze enemies for a while, but attacks break them out of it. That's what it looks like from the outside, though.YouTube video
1:55As you can see, from the victim's perspective, the user disappears. But we know it's really paralysis and the victim isn't even conscious during it. Raziel won't know what happened before there's a sword through his skull.
YouTube video
5:40Apparently this guy sat yelling and waving him arms at people for years and no one noticed him. For years. Words cannot describe how much that must suck. Though it seems I was wrong, he doesn't appear as a stone, you just don't notice him.
YouTube video
5:30 and just about everything after it.No one will notice if you shoot a Gerudo and then take a picture of her unconcious form. That's supposed to be a stealth mission, but the Stone Mask makes it way too easy.
Can you show me this? Specifically, Raziel throwing someone with TK and then having time to turn invisible before they hit the ground/shoot him? And the binding, too, I guess? No, there aren't any cutscenes where Link pulls out his bow, but there are a few times a cutscene starts after Link fires an arrow, like 8:40 in the above video.
As I said which you ignored, its player choice when an arrow fires, therefore useless for any "feat", uncanon as I said. height matters when hes launched a direction he cant predict, a few feet off the ground vertically is nothing by comparison.
Yeh good move, ignore the point. You have yet to prove Link would have to have it on constantly to beat Bongo, instead of the "look through it, then use the bow" deduction I suggested.
You see your talking about illogical fallacies, I am making very few assumptions. I am simply saying link is looking through a LOOKING glass lense which allows him to see invisability. I am not making random claims that dont make sense such as how Bongo gains a speed boost, your playing on the fact gameplay mechanics and controls in the game are apprently canon for how Link uses an item, your going to argue Link sees himself in a third person view next just because thats how the player controls him.....illogical.
You see you added things that make no logical sense. Also again, show me the evidence that its just a "focus" for Links apprently natural ability to see invisible beings through magic....this is all bogus assumption that makes no sense.
It looks to me like Link has to get a direct hit on someone for the nut to work and thats its not an AOE like you said before, because he gets direct hit on the skeleton every time. The point of fact being, Links not got the reaction times or the speed to throw a small nut accuratly at Raziel who is leaping 4-5 meters at a time. Furthermore, I can counter the nut tactic just by Raziel waving his hand, and tossing Link into the air, or throwing him over.
What are you showing me in that second video? I just see Link playing music...
You become as "plain" as a stone, thats all well and good but its not going to help in combat. When all there is, is two people with the intent to fight, even if one is plain as stone, it wont stop Raziel from trying to kill him what wtih the intent in the thread.
AAvvZorgDjo&feature=related
At 3:39, he launches a hylden possessed with TK, and it takes about 1 second, give or take to reach the opposing area. Now considering this is not static, Raziel had he chosen an area further away (consdiering I doubt hes got things to impale link on here) it would take longer.
The following vid is full of TK use, both from the player and A.I
yH0r5j4s6dA&feature=related
But at 3:42 in the cutscene Kain is launched into the air, and it takes time before he reaches the portal, but more importantly Link does not have that time. He will have longer because hes not got anything in this battlefield to stop his fall, so hes going to be flying through the air and all Raziel needs is a single second.
Raziel would defeat Link then and there without using any spells, using Tk he could throw link around, disarm him of his objects, take his bow quiver so he has no arrows, take his lense of truth, his mask etc.
Originally posted by Burning thought
As I said which you ignored, its player choice when an arrow fires, therefore useless for any "feat", uncanon as I said. height matters when hes launched a direction he cant predict, a few feet off the ground vertically is nothing by comparison.
I didn't ignore the point, if you would just read my posts more closely. See, I told you it wasn't a gameplay mechanic, but now you're saying that all of gameplayis non canon, including Link's ability to fire a bow in mid air. It's a gameplay ability, just like the dimensional teleport.
Yeh good move, ignore the point. You have yet to prove Link would have to have it on constantly to beat Bongo, instead of the "look through it, then use the bow" deduction I suggested.
Hey, instead of me having to prove a negative of Link not having to pull out the lens, look through it, put it away, pull out the bow, and fire, why don't you prove that he did? I mean, it's your claim.
You see your talking about illogical fallacies, I am making very few assumptions. I am simply saying link is looking through a LOOKING glass lense which allows him to see invisability. I am not making random claims that dont make sense such as how Bongo gains a speed boost, your playing on the fact gameplay mechanics and controls in the game are apprently canon for how Link uses an item, your going to argue Link sees himself in a third person view next just because thats how the player controls him.....illogical.
And I'm simply saying that's not what we see. Even with the Lens equipped, there is no change in Link other than seeing the truth. It doesn't appear stuck to Link's eye, he doesn't hold it, he can use a bow, etc. What you're doing is looking at something right in front of you and saying "nope, that didn't actually happen." Then you put forth your own theory about it, which again ignores what was seen, and treat that as fact. It's illogical to assume that Link needs to hold the Lens in his hand when there is no evidence for this at all. There is no way to defeat Bongo Bongo if you don't use both at the same time. That's canon.
You see you added things that make no logical sense. Also again, show me the evidence that its just a "focus" for Links apprently natural ability to see invisible beings through magic....this is all bogus assumption that makes no sense.
Link doesn't hold it. That should be enough to say that Link doesn't have to hold it. While the Lens is active, Link can be doing anything else, no matter what it requires or how many hands Link has available. The Lens allows Link to see the truth when he uses magic power. He's also shown to, and it's required in a boss fight, to use the Lens and the Bow at the same time.
It looks to me like Link has to get a direct hit on someone for the nut to work and thats its not an AOE like you said before, because he gets direct hit on the skeleton every time. The point of fact being, Links not got the reaction times or the speed to throw a small nut accuratly at Raziel who is leaping 4-5 meters at a time. Furthermore, I can counter the nut tactic just by Raziel waving his hand, and tossing Link into the air, or throwing him over.
Check 7:41-8:00, and then 10:05-10:15. Deku Nuts are AOE and can affect multiple enemies. Raziel is not that fast, he can't escape a Deku Nut. And Link can counter the TK by throwing another Nut, since Raziel will have to hold still to TK and Link only needs to hit near him. And then Link can kill him at his leisure.
What are you showing me in that second video? I just see Link playing music...
I made a typo. Meant 4:55, not 1:55. When Sheik disappears, she's using a Deku Nut.
You become as "plain" as a stone, thats all well and good but its not going to help in combat. When all there is, is two people with the intent to fight, even if one is plain as stone, it wont stop Raziel from trying to kill him what wtih the intent in the thread.
I showed you Link running around the Fortress shooting people, didn't I? No one noticed Link pull a bow and shoot a woman in the face. The guy that gave Link the mask was yelling at people and waving his arms for years without being noticed. Raziel literally won't know what hit him.
AAvvZorgDjo&feature=relatedAt 3:39, he launches a hylden possessed with TK, and it takes about 1 second, give or take to reach the opposing area. Now considering this is not static, Raziel had he chosen an area further away (consdiering I doubt hes got things to impale link on here) it would take longer.
'K, so I don't really see much preventing Link from firing his bow or throwing a Deku Nut. It doesn't really do much other than move Link around. Heh, Link could just use the Hover Boots to stand on thin air and keep shooting.
The following vid is full of TK use, both from the player and A.IyH0r5j4s6dA&feature=related
But at 3:42 in the cutscene Kain is launched into the air, and it takes time before he reaches the portal, but more importantly Link does not have that time. He will have longer because hes not got anything in this battlefield to stop his fall, so hes going to be flying through the air and all Raziel needs is a single second.
But since Link can shoot in mid air, or gain footing in mid air with the Hover Boots, he'll still be able to fight while flying. And, since the Hover Boots have no traction, he'll be much farther away from Raziel. Which would give Link the range advantage. Or, you know, Iron Boots.
Raziel would defeat Link then and there without using any spells, using Tk he could throw link around, disarm him of his objects, take his bow quiver so he has no arrows, take his lense of truth, his mask etc.
Has Raziel ever demonstrated this ability? All Raziel has shown is pushes. And the main problem is that if Link already has the Stone Mask on, Raziel won't ntice him to be able to do it. And there's the fact that he can't take everything at once. Oh, and I don't think Link will be letting go of his items.
Originally posted by The Scenario
I didn't ignore the point, if you would just read my posts more closely. See, I told you it wasn't a gameplay mechanic, but now you're saying that all of gameplayis non canon, including Link's ability to fire a bow in mid air. It's a gameplay ability, just like the dimensional teleport.Hey, instead of me having to prove a negative of Link not having to pull out the lens, look through it, put it away, pull out the bow, and fire, why don't you prove that he did? I mean, it's your claim.
And I'm simply saying that's not what we see. Even with the Lens equipped, there is no change in Link other than seeing the truth. It doesn't appear stuck to Link's eye, he doesn't hold it, he can use a bow, etc. What you're doing is looking at something right in front of you and saying "nope, that didn't actually happen." Then you put forth your own theory about it, which again ignores what was seen, and treat that as fact. It's illogical to assume that Link needs to hold the Lens in his hand when there is no evidence for this at all. There is no way to defeat Bongo Bongo if you don't use both at the same time. That's canon.
Link doesn't hold it. That should be enough to say that Link doesn't have to hold it. While the Lens is active, Link can be doing anything else, no matter what it requires or how many hands Link has available. The Lens allows Link to see the truth when he uses magic power. He's also shown to, and it's required in a boss fight, to use the Lens and the Bow at the same time.
Check 7:41-8:00, and then 10:05-10:15. Deku Nuts are AOE and can affect multiple enemies. Raziel is not that fast, he can't escape a Deku Nut. And Link can counter the TK by throwing another Nut, since Raziel will have to hold still to TK and Link only needs to hit near him. And then Link can kill him at his leisure.
I made a typo. Meant 4:55, not 1:55. When Sheik disappears, she's using a Deku Nut.
I showed you Link running around the Fortress shooting people, didn't I? No one noticed Link pull a bow and shoot a woman in the face. The guy that gave Link the mask was yelling at people and waving his arms for years without being noticed. Raziel literally won't know what hit him.
'K, so I don't really see much preventing Link from firing his bow or throwing a Deku Nut. It doesn't really do much other than move Link around. Heh, Link could just use the Hover Boots to stand on thin air and keep shooting.
But since Link can shoot in mid air, or gain footing in mid air with the Hover Boots, he'll still be able to fight while flying. And, since the Hover Boots have no traction, he'll be much farther away from Raziel. Which would give Link the range advantage. Or, you know, Iron Boots.
Has Raziel ever demonstrated this ability? All Raziel has shown is pushes. And the main problem is that if Link already has the Stone Mask on, Raziel won't ntice him to be able to do it. And there's the fact that he can't take everything at once. Oh, and I don't think Link will be letting go of his items.
The player choice is non canon, its not canon Link used a bow while bouncing in the air a foot or two.
How is that a negative, its a claim that you have brought up. You assumed the lense of truth is just a magic focus, provide reason or logic for this....my claim is that he in canon would have to take it out and look through it because of it being a looking glass/lense and even the gameplay shows what looks like a lense on the screen.
What I am saying "nope that didnt happen" is a player activating it through an inventory screen without Link doing anything, despite what looks alike to a lense appearing on the screen. Technically all thats seen is gameplay mechanics. Whats canon is that he beat Bongo, not that he used the lense and the bow at the same time.
Your claim that he does not hold it is based on a gameplay mechanic. I you want to use gameplay mechanics then Link is doomed because the player cant select the lense of truth, deku nuts or specific arrows for him 😉
Looking at the video, the stun lasts for like, a few seconds at most. Also give logical reasoing why, all I see is perhaps 1 meter range, tossed by Link....since when has link thrown with perfect accuracy against someone as quick as Raziel? also wheres yout reasoning behind Raziel having to hold still? Link has to pull out a nut, throw it after taking aim at someone who could be leaping around with his agility to avoid Link when all Raziel has to do is wave his hand.
As I said, Raziel can see the Elder God, he can see spirits, and he can become a spirit if necessery. Raziel can see things similiar to this. It just makes Link plain "as a rock", thats the canon description.
Its Player decision to do those things 😬
Apart from being tossed around, hes yet to fire his bow or throw nuts, certainly accuratly while flying through the air....show me hover boots plz.
Your claiming bouncing a foot or two in the air is the same as being tossed? tossed backwards? their not alike, Links not done anything like flying through the air while fireing arrows.
What ability, to TK? 😬 thats what he has, and all he needs to take items, Links not got much say i n what items Raziel takes. Also your overhyping this stone mask, the only canon is that it makes Link plain as a rock, he is still Tkable, technically he still exists.
TK--->light/dark reaver---->Link blind/Raziel invisible---->slice-->link dead.
This would take about 3 seconds perhaps, if that. And if Link is allowed items on him and activated as the fight starts, Raziel should be allowed his powers activated as well.
Originally posted by Burning thought
The player choice is non canon, its not canon Link used a bow while bouncing in the air a foot or two.
It's not canon Kain ever used the Dimensional Teleport. It's not canon Raziel ever used the invisibility of the Dark Reaver. It's not canon Raziel can use telekinetic stasis. It's not canon Raziel used the Light Reaver to blind. Would you like me to continue or will you drop this? Regardless, Link has the Hover Boots, which allow him to stand on thin air.
How is that a negative, its a claim that you have brought up. You assumed the lense of truth is just a magic focus, provide reason or logic for this....my claim is that he in canon would have to take it out and look through it because of it being a looking glass/lense and even the gameplay shows what looks like a lense on the screen.
You claimed that Link had to hold the Lens and then told me to prove that Link didn't have to hold it. That's a negative. You made the claim, you should prove it, if you can.
What I am saying "nope that didnt happen" is a player activating it through an inventory screen without Link doing anything, despite what looks alike to a lense appearing on the screen. Technically all thats seen is gameplay mechanics. Whats canon is that he beat Bongo, not that he used the lense and the bow at the same time.
And how many of Raziel's abilities are exactly the same? Aside from telekinesis, every single ability you are letting Raziel have is gameplay only. It's a double standard if you won't let Link have his abilities as they are shown. I'm not denying that Raziel can turn invisible, am I?
Your claim that he does not hold it is based on a gameplay mechanic. I you want to use gameplay mechanics then Link is doomed because the player cant select the lense of truth, deku nuts or specific arrows for him 😉
Take this logic, and then apply it Raziel, please. No Dark Reaver, No Light Reaver, no telekinetic stasis, nothing that the player selects for Raziel to use. Being fair is a ***** isn't it?
Looking at the video, the stun lasts for like, a few seconds at most. Also give logical reasoing why, all I see is perhaps 1 meter range, tossed by Link....since when has link thrown with perfect accuracy against someone as quick as Raziel? also wheres yout reasoning behind Raziel having to hold still? Link has to pull out a nut, throw it after taking aim at someone who could be leaping around with his agility to avoid Link when all Raziel has to do is wave his hand.
All Link has to do is throw the Nut at the ground. Any aiming is minimal at best, since he just has to point in Raziel's general direction. The paralysis lasts for several seconds, but ends when Link attacks, but by then it will be too late. As for Raziel, he's never used TK while moving/dodging as you say he will be, and he has to take aim at Link as well.
As I said, Raziel can see the Elder God, he can see spirits, and he can become a spirit if necessery. Raziel can see things similiar to this. It just makes Link plain "as a rock", thats the canon description.
Yeah, but he won't notice something as boring and beneath him as Link, at least until there's a sword in his skull. It's not invisibility, it's just making Link too boring and plain to take note of. Elder God and spirits can't be seen, but even though Raziel can see Link, he just won't notice him.
Its Player decision to do those things 😬
It's player decision to move. You can't just pick and choose things to accept. You either let both Link and Raziel have them, or let neither have them.
Apart from being tossed around, hes yet to fire his bow or throw nuts, certainly accuratly while flying through the air....show me hover boots plz.
YouTube video
2:50 and the 4:10.
Your claiming bouncing a foot or two in the air is the same as being tossed? tossed backwards? their not alike, Links not done anything like flying through the air while fireing arrows.
Link can either avoid getting tossed entirely with the Iron Boots, or just stand on air and keep attacking with the Hover Boots. Regardless of those, Link did show the ability to aim and fire in mid air.
What ability, to TK? 😬 thats what he has, and all he needs to take items, Links not got much say i n what items Raziel takes. Also your overhyping this stone mask, the only canon is that it makes Link plain as a rock, he is still Tkable, technically he still exists.
Has Raziel ever taken an item from someone? How will he know what items to take if Link hasn't hasn't already used them? How will he notice Link with Stone Mask?
TK--->light/dark reaver---->Link blind/Raziel invisible---->slice-->link dead.
Deku Nut --> Stone Mask --> Raziel paralyzed/Link unnoticeable --> slice --> Raziel dead.
See? I can do it, too.
This would take about 3 seconds perhaps, if that. And if Link is allowed items on him and activated as the fight starts, Raziel should be allowed his powers activated as well.
Sure, why not? It's not as though Raziel can percieve the Stone Mask, while Link can counter the Dark Reaver at any time with the Lens of Truth. Then, Link can just skip the Deku Nuts entirely and just stab Raziel, thereby killing him.
Originally posted by The Scenario
It's not canon Kain ever used the Dimensional Teleport. It's not canon Raziel ever used the invisibility of the Dark Reaver. It's not canon Raziel can use telekinetic stasis. It's not canon Raziel used the Light Reaver to blind. Would you like me to continue or will you drop this? Regardless, Link has the Hover Boots, which allow him to stand on thin air.You claimed that Link had to hold the Lens and then told me to prove that Link didn't have to hold it. That's a negative. You made the claim, you should prove it, if you can.
And how many of Raziel's abilities are exactly the same? Aside from telekinesis, every single ability you are letting Raziel have is gameplay only. It's a double standard if you won't let Link have his abilities as they are shown. I'm not denying that Raziel can turn invisible, am I?
Take this logic, and then apply it Raziel, please. No Dark Reaver, No Light Reaver, no telekinetic stasis, nothing that the player selects for Raziel to use. Being fair is a ***** isn't it?
All Link has to do is throw the Nut at the ground. Any aiming is minimal at best, since he just has to point in Raziel's general direction. The paralysis lasts for several seconds, but ends when Link attacks, but by then it will be too late. As for Raziel, he's never used TK while moving/dodging as you say he will be, and he has to take aim at Link as well.
Yeah, but he won't notice something as boring and beneath him as Link, at least until there's a sword in his skull. It's not invisibility, it's just making Link too boring and plain to take note of. Elder God and spirits can't be seen, but even though Raziel can see Link, he just won't notice him.
It's player decision to move. You can't just pick and choose things to accept. You either let both Link and Raziel have them, or let neither have them.
YouTube video
2:50 and the 4:10.Link can either avoid getting tossed entirely with the Iron Boots, or just stand on air and keep attacking with the Hover Boots. Regardless of those, Link did show the ability to aim and fire in mid air.
Has Raziel ever taken an item from someone? How will he know what items to take if Link hasn't hasn't already used them? How will he notice Link with Stone Mask?
Deku Nut --> Stone Mask --> Raziel paralyzed/Link unnoticeable --> slice --> Raziel dead.
See? I can do it, too.
Sure, why not? It's not as though Raziel can percieve the Stone Mask, while Link can counter the Dark Reaver at any time with the Lens of Truth. Then, Link can just skip the Deku Nuts entirely and just stab Raziel, thereby killing him.
No its not, so? if an event is uncanon that does not discard a specific power or ability. Drawring a bow specifically when he bounces is a player decision however, so you claiming Link can fire a bow accuratly during being tossed around like a rag doll is absurd and unfounded.
Theres no evidence to suggest he does not have to hold it, and I have proven it, I have proven that the lense is a looking glass/magnifying glass.
You cant deny Raziel can turn invisible, its shown exactly how Raziel does it and theres no question about it. Link in the gameplay does nothing, the only way we know the lense is activated in-game is through player activation. We know Raziels reaver flashes and he turns dark.
I am fair, having to explain the different between gameplay mechanics, gameplay and player chosen activation is a ***** however.
The ground? as I said the range is like a meter, and Raziel jumps like 4 meters/second....your not hitting Raziel with this thing, Links not thrown it at anyone near as fast in canon so what makes you belive this is the case here? also what are you talking about concerning Raziel not being able toTk while moving? Tk is used by mental force and a wave of the hand, what difference does Raziel moving make? he has to target link but its not the same, because Link is throwing an actual object.
He would not usually notice someone like link, but in this thread he does because he has to kill him. I dont see how link being plain or boring or made into something you would not notice will change this.
Yeh you dont understand, its like the gameplay mechanics thing all over again. You cant claim that just because a player decided to do something that actually canonically happened.
These boots are useless, they allow him to hover in the air but that does not stop force from tossing about, this will make Raziels task easier because Link is already in the air. Tossing him around would couple with the propulsion from the boots. Link better use the iron boots as they only negate Raziel from TKing him into the air at least.
No but whats the relevance? he has TK, and can target objects to me, as heavy as a person, Link does not own many things that are heavier than that so Raziel can take what he wants.
You can but your plan is based on Link putting his hand to where a Deku nut is, throwing it and hoping for a hit on someone whos faster than anyone hes attempted to throw at, all this before Raziel waves his hand which is why your breakdown of this fight is flawed.
Your using the stone mask as something its not, its not a way to avoid any and all detection. It just makes the user seem plain and almost unnoticable like a stone, considering the intent of battle in the thread and the fact Links the only other living thing other than Raziel here, its not likely Raziels going to ignore him, his choices are limted.
Like the massive mathgasms and shit, the giant arguments on gameply mechanics and what exactly constitutes as a feat or canon, the way arguments tend to escalate from a strategy to a counter to multiple arguments about highly specific options etc.
The reason I'm iffy about actually arguing in this subforum it just how fidly and irritating things become. Plus multiple walls of text in every post on every page. Arguing with Rogue Jedi has the same problems.