Raziel vs OOT Link

Originally posted by Nephthys
Like the massive mathgasms and shit, the giant arguments on gameply mechanics and what exactly constitutes as a feat or canon, the way arguments tend to escalate from a strategy to a counter to multiple arguments about highly specific options etc.

The reason I'm iffy about actually arguing in this subforum it just how fidly and irritating things become. Plus multiple walls of text in every post on every page. Arguing with Rogue Jedi has the same problems.

And I suppose your farts are odorless, right?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
You do realise this kind of shit happens specificly because some members are intentionally obtuse, and drag things out unnecessarily, trying to win through a war of attrition, yes? For instance, BT is actually still claiming Raziel is stronger/faster ect, despite feats displaying otherwise.

And some members would rather troll than argue when their points are shot down. And I never claim against evidence, I simply gauge it besides my own and decide from there, the difference is you will claim I ignore something just because I dont agree with it.

No feats make Link faster, and stronger is either irrelevant or not actually true.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And I suppose your farts are odorless, right?

This is why debates become complicated, because otherwise it seems arguments are against people, not against arguments themselves. Also theres too much pride in this forum, nobody concedes despite points being obvious, maturity is lacking. I can debate with irl people fine, even on other forums but here a series of arguments can never be simple or straight forward 🙁

Everyone sees things differently, everyone wants to put their character(s) in the best light possible while putting the opposing character(s) in the worst light possible. This is where from the majority of these never-ending arguments arise, I think.

Indeed, all true. I guess these arguments would not happen in the first place if there was not much in the way of a stronger opinion over one character or another.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And I suppose your farts are odorless, right?

Actually, we generally want our characters in the best light possible, and some of us don't give any number of shits where the other characters end up.

I usually attempt to respect the others, but it does not end up that way in most threads I post a lot in.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Actually, we generally want our characters in the best light possible, and some of us don't give any number of shits where the other characters end up.

I usually attempt to respect the others, but it does not end up that way in most threads I post a lot in.

Is why I don't post much anymore. I prefer to debate with reasonable people who understand how to concede a point.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No its not, so? if an event is uncanon that does not discard a specific power or ability. Drawring a bow specifically when he bounces is a player decision however, so you claiming Link can fire a bow accuratly during being tossed around like a rag doll is absurd and unfounded.

But you're still missing the fact that Link has the ability to fire his bow in mid air. If he didn't have the ability, he wouldn't do it. When the player chooses to do this may not be canon, but Link still possesses the ability, or he would not be able to.

Theres no evidence to suggest he does not have to hold it, and I have proven it, I have proven that the lense is a looking glass/magnifying glass.

You really haven't. You're just arguing based on the appearance of the item instead of how the item is outright shown to function. I show you a video of Link using the Lens without hands and you claim Link needs his hands. I show you Link canonically used both the Lens and the Bow at the same time to fight Bongo Bongo, yet you insist Link needs to hold it with a needlessly complicated series of actions, during which Bongo Bongo would have attacked him.

You cant deny Raziel can turn invisible, its shown exactly how Raziel does it and theres no question about it. Link in the gameplay does nothing, the only way we know the lense is activated in-game is through player activation. We know Raziels reaver flashes and he turns dark.

Raziel is shown to turn invisible in what? That's right, gameplay. Same situation. Link is shown not using his hands in gameplay, and Raziel is shown turning dark in gameplay. Accepting one and not the other is blatant hypocrisy.

I am fair, having to explain the different between gameplay mechanics, gameplay and player chosen activation is a ***** however.

To be honest, player activation sounds like something you just made up as a way to let Raziel keep his feats while denying Link his. It's all gameplay, and Link not using his hands to activate the Lens of Truth or firing his bow in mid air is exactly the same as Raziel turning invisible or swinging a blade in mid air.

The ground? as I said the range is like a meter, and Raziel jumps like 4 meters/second....your not hitting Raziel with this thing, Links not thrown it at anyone near as fast in canon so what makes you belive this is the case here? also what are you talking about concerning Raziel not being able toTk while moving? Tk is used by mental force and a wave of the hand, what difference does Raziel moving make? he has to target link but its not the same, because Link is throwing an actual object.

Yeah, Link just has to hit the ground near Raziel. Whether he does this before Raziel jumps or as he's landing doesn't make much difference. Raziel really isn't that fast, nor is he too fast for Link. Raziel stopped to use TK in the videos you showed me, and he does have to generally point and aim at what he wants to affect. Link just has to wave his hand, and make sure the projectile lands near Raziel. It will hit Raziel even if he's in the air, and the area Link throws is fairly close to him, so getting close to Link would be suicidal.

He would not usually notice someone like link, but in this thread he does because he has to kill him. I dont see how link being plain or boring or made into something you would not notice will change this.

If Raziel doesn't notice Link, it means he won't really be seeing Link. He'll ignore Link standing in front of him, he'll ignore Link's footsteps, he'll ignore Link pulling back a bowstring or drawing a sword, and he'll just keep ignoring Link for years if Link lets him live that long, just like the soldier who had the mask before Link.

Yeh you dont understand, its like the gameplay mechanics thing all over again. You cant claim that just because a player decided to do something that actually canonically happened.

But as you say, that doesn't discard a specific power or ability. Link can fire in mid air, and just because it isn't canon it doesn't mean the ability should be ignored. That's what you said, isn't it? In the first paragraph of this post, too.

These boots are useless, they allow him to hover in the air but that does not stop force from tossing about, this will make Raziels task easier because Link is already in the air. Tossing him around would couple with the propulsion from the boots. Link better use the iron boots as they only negate Raziel from TKing him into the air at least.

That's kind of the point. Link will be able to stand upright and have semi firm footing while being thrown, which would greatly increase his accuracy while shooting in mid air. And because of the boots lack of much traction, Link will end up much farther away than Raziel intends. And since Link holds the ranged advatage via the bow, it all works out. At that point Raziel would have to get close to Link if he wants to attack, and with that much distance Link can prepare a Deku Nut or Magic Arrow, or just use those while flying.

No but whats the relevance? he has TK, and can target objects to me, as heavy as a person, Link does not own many things that are heavier than that so Raziel can take what he wants.

But has his TK shown the ability to grip anything smaller? Has he shown the ability to draw things towards him, or in any direction besides forwards? Can he do this before Link shoots him, throws a Deku Nut, hits him with the Hookshot, or similar?

You can but your plan is based on Link putting his hand to where a Deku nut is, throwing it and hoping for a hit on someone whos faster than anyone hes attempted to throw at, all this before Raziel waves his hand which is why your breakdown of this fight is flawed.

Link just has to wave his hand, as well. The difference being that he's waving a little harder and is holding something while he does so. I mean, even if Raziel pulls off the TK, so what? Link could still be throwing the Deku Nut and get Raziel while he's using the TK.

Your using the stone mask as something its not, its not a way to avoid any and all detection. It just makes the user seem plain and almost unnoticable like a stone, considering the intent of battle in the thread and the fact Links the only other living thing other than Raziel here, its not likely Raziels going to ignore him, his choices are limted.

I did show you the video where Link uses the Stone Mask to avoid any and all detection, didn't I? I recall it involved Link running circles around a Gerudo Pirate before shooting her in the face with a bow and taking a picture of her unconscious form, with no one noticing. With the Stone Mask on, Raziel will just wonder where his opponent went. Since the room is just empty, right?

Originally posted by The Scenario
But you're still missing the fact that Link has the ability to fire his bow in mid air. If he didn't have the ability, he wouldn't do it. When the player chooses to do this may not be canon, but Link still possesses the ability, or he would not be able to.

You really haven't. You're just arguing based on the appearance of the item instead of how the item is outright shown to function. I show you a video of Link using the Lens without hands and you claim Link needs his hands. I show you Link canonically used both the Lens and the Bow at the same time to fight Bongo Bongo, yet you insist Link needs to hold it with a needlessly complicated series of actions, during which Bongo Bongo would have attacked him.

Raziel is shown to turn invisible in what? That's right, gameplay. Same situation. Link is shown not using his hands in gameplay, and Raziel is shown turning dark in gameplay. Accepting one and not the other is blatant hypocrisy.

To be honest, player activation sounds like something you just made up as a way to let Raziel keep his feats while denying Link his. It's all gameplay, and Link not using his hands to activate the Lens of Truth or firing his bow in mid air is exactly the same as Raziel turning invisible or swinging a blade in mid air.

Yeah, Link just has to hit the ground near Raziel. Whether he does this before Raziel jumps or as he's landing doesn't make much difference. Raziel really isn't that fast, nor is he too fast for Link. Raziel stopped to use TK in the videos you showed me, and he does have to generally point and aim at what he wants to affect. Link just has to wave his hand, and make sure the projectile lands near Raziel. It will hit Raziel even if he's in the air, and the area Link throws is fairly close to him, so getting close to Link would be suicidal.

If Raziel doesn't notice Link, it means he won't really be seeing Link. He'll ignore Link standing in front of him, he'll ignore Link's footsteps, he'll ignore Link pulling back a bowstring or drawing a sword, and he'll just keep ignoring Link for years if Link lets him live that long, just like the soldier who had the mask before Link.

But as you say, that doesn't discard a specific power or ability. Link can fire in mid air, and just because it isn't canon it doesn't mean the ability should be ignored. That's what you said, isn't it? In the first paragraph of this post, too.

That's kind of the point. Link will be able to stand upright and have semi firm footing while being thrown, which would greatly increase his accuracy while shooting in mid air. And because of the boots lack of much traction, Link will end up much farther away than Raziel intends. And since Link holds the ranged advatage via the bow, it all works out. At that point Raziel would have to get close to Link if he wants to attack, and with that much distance Link can prepare a Deku Nut or Magic Arrow, or just use those while flying.

But has his TK shown the ability to grip anything smaller? Has he shown the ability to draw things towards him, or in any direction besides forwards? Can he do this before Link shoots him, throws a Deku Nut, hits him with the Hookshot, or similar?

Link just has to wave his hand, as well. The difference being that he's waving a little harder and is holding something while he does so. I mean, even if Raziel pulls off the TK, so what? Link could still be throwing the Deku Nut and get Raziel while he's using the TK.

I did show you the video where Link uses the Stone Mask to avoid any and all detection, didn't I? I recall it involved Link running circles around a Gerudo Pirate before shooting her in the face with a bow and taking a picture of her unconscious form, with no one noticing. With the Stone Mask on, Raziel will just wonder where his opponent went. Since the room is just empty, right?

How can you choose a non canon moment for your point? I mean when I choose non canon events for say, TK or Dimention reaver I am showing it because of the scripted animation and how the ability works but concerning using the bow, you can use the bow anywhere it seems and using the bow at that moment is entirely player choice, which obviously changes the feat, if a player never used it there you could not use it as evidence but if a player used dimention or TK its the effect i am using, not the circumstance. Your reliant on Link being there and the player fireing his bow while bounced.

The item is not shown to function other than in a player selecting it, Links quiver is not shown to function but we know he has one....Link has advantages such as a hammerspace that does not excist in real life. You did not show any of these things canonically, you have shown a gameplay mechanic, worse player chosen mechanics. Your needlessly complcating things with assumptions, apprently a looking glass is a focus, the looking glass does not need to be looked through despite its nature, the looking glass does not even haev to be present, it can be in a hammerspace (gameplay mechanic) etc etc Its so much more logical to point out that Link may hold a looking glass/lense to his eye just to see where someone invisible may be.

Their nothing alike, your relying on hammerspaces and player control. Theres no player control in how Raziel activates the reaver, only when.

Something I made up? thats how the lense works as "we see it" in your video. We dont see Link actually doing anything, its typical of an older game but you cant simply assume it suddenly gives Link the ability of this special sight without actual reason. Its not, as I said above.

You keep saying Raziel is not too fast but fail to provide evidence that links this incredibly accurate nut thrower who can track someone quicker than anyone before. Thats a gameplay mechanic having to stop, Raziel uses TK just by moving his hands, sure he may need line of sight to Link but theres nowhere to hide iirc in this battlefield. Links going to be fumbling about with little nuts, attempts to aim and throw at someone too quick for him and despite the long list of assumptions you think hes goign to hit Raziel before Raziel moves his hand for Tk? what makes you belive this at all?

Looking at the soldier he cannot move, also it just looks like a form of invisability concerning the soldier. Why else would Link wear the lense of truth to see him? Raziel has sensed and see things no normal human can even percieve, yet despite the rules of the rhead being to kill eachother and there being no more than 2 people here to fight, Link being plain or boring does not decrease his chances of being seen.

None of those things you listed are as fast as Raziel moving his hand but yes, he can lift things up and bring them towards him rather than away, its the nature of TK and it just so happens the videos I have shown show him tossing them away, but if you really want to see it I can show you him bringing them towards him. I think yur nitpicking tbh because if all Raziel could do was toss them forwards, its just as good because Links still losing them.

No he doesnt, the nut has to be in his hand first which includes fumbling in his jacket for the thing, then he has to take aim. Its not the same with TK, because Raziel is not working with tnagible force. Thats ignore the fact Raziel is too quick for Link, to get any chance of hitting raziel with something so small and of little AoE hes going to have to time it. Hows he throwing a nut while being tossed around with TK? accuratly too? hardly likely...

Why would he wonder that when Raziel can see the immaterial and invisible? remebmer all the thing does is make Link pretty boring. If your claiming he will disapear from material excistence or something then Raziel can see that....you could argue as well that Raziel himself has a lense of truth in his eyes, because he sees the truth of things, e.g. the Elder God, spirits floating around. Few things are hidden from him.

Originally posted by Burning thought
How can you choose a non canon moment for your point? I mean when I choose non canon events for say, TK or Dimention reaver I am showing it because of the scripted animation and how the ability works but concerning using the bow, you can use the bow anywhere it seems and using the bow at that moment is entirely player choice, which obviously changes the feat, if a player never used it there you could not use it as evidence but if a player used dimention or TK its the effect i am using, not the circumstance. Your reliant on Link being there and the player fireing his bow while bounced.

Because when the player gits the button, Link fires his bow. You can't deny this because it's scripted. But if you hit the button while Link is in mid air, he still fires his bow, because that is also scripted. Link performs the same animation regardless of where he is because that is what was intended. And there's the fact that of the player was unable to fire in mid air, beating Bongo Bongo would be near impossible. Since the battle takes place while Link is being thrown around on a trampolene, Link spends a significant amount of time in the air. It was obviouslu intended for Link to be able to do it, or he just wouldn't have been able to.

The item is not shown to function other than in a player selecting it, Links quiver is not shown to function but we know he has one....Link has advantages such as a hammerspace that does not excist in real life. You did not show any of these things canonically, you have shown a gameplay mechanic, worse player chosen mechanics. Your needlessly complcating things with assumptions, apprently a looking glass is a focus, the looking glass does not need to be looked through despite its nature, the looking glass does not even haev to be present, it can be in a hammerspace (gameplay mechanic) etc etc Its so much more logical to point out that Link may hold a looking glass/lense to his eye just to see where someone invisible may be.

So what is shown only makes sense when you say it does? You're still ignoring the fact that, in order to beat Bongo Bongo, the player is required to use the Bow and the Lens at the same time. Anything else is just speculation.

Their nothing alike, your relying on hammerspaces and player control. Theres no player control in how Raziel activates the reaver, only when.

And that somehow makes it different? Player hits a button, Raziel/Link does something. The action still happens regardless of when or where it's done, unless there is something specifically preventing. As it happens, being in the air does not prevent Link from using his bow.

Something I made up? thats how the lense works as "we see it" in your video. We dont see Link actually doing anything, its typical of an older game but you cant simply assume it suddenly gives Link the ability of this special sight without actual reason. Its not, as I said above.

Yeah, this is the first time I've ever seen the words "player activation" being used as a substitute for "because I said so." You've never used this argument before, since before you just denied all gameplay. But now that you want to use gameplay yourself, you had to find another way to deny Link's abilities. And instead of just accepting what is shown, you're just speculating in a way to deny Link the Lens of Truth.

You keep saying Raziel is not too fast but fail to provide evidence that links this incredibly accurate nut thrower who can track someone quicker than anyone before. Thats a gameplay mechanic having to stop, Raziel uses TK just by moving his hands, sure he may need line of sight to Link but theres nowhere to hide iirc in this battlefield. Links going to be fumbling about with little nuts, attempts to aim and throw at someone too quick for him and despite the long list of assumptions you think hes goign to hit Raziel before Raziel moves his hand for Tk? what makes you belive this at all?

Subtle bashing, but still there. Link is going to "fumble" with his "little" Deku Nuts, and "attempt" to throw them, despite none of that ever happening. Hey, even Sheik doesn't reach into a pocket in cutscene, and Link makes the same motion when he throws. Too bad. So, if you're going to deny Raziel standing still as gameplay mechanics, you're going to have show me a cutscene that contradicts it. Raziel is shown to stop, and just like the Lens of Truth, assuming anything else is just speculation tilted in Raziel's favor.

Looking at the soldier he cannot move, also it just looks like a form of invisability concerning the soldier. Why else would Link wear the lense of truth to see him? Raziel has sensed and see things no normal human can even percieve, yet despite the rules of the rhead being to kill eachother and there being no more than 2 people here to fight, Link being plain or boring does not decrease his chances of being seen.

Yeah, the soldier was injured. That's why Link had to give him the healing potion in the video I showed you. It just looks like invisibility because Link didn't notice him, and using the Lens let Link see his true nature. He was there, just unnoticeable. And it doesn't matter what Raziel is able to see, what matters is what Raziel won't notice.

None of those things you listed are as fast as Raziel moving his hand but yes, he can lift things up and bring them towards him rather than away, its the nature of TK and it just so happens the videos I have shown show him tossing them away, but if you really want to see it I can show you him bringing them towards him. I think yur nitpicking tbh because if all Raziel could do was toss them forwards, its just as good because Links still losing them.

But can he grip small objects? All Raziel has shown is brute force. I doubt he can affect the object Link is holding without affecting Link himself. And what with Link's strength, I don't think Raziel can actually get the item away from him.

No he doesnt, the nut has to be in his hand first which includes fumbling in his jacket for the thing, then he has to take aim. Its not the same with TK, because Raziel is not working with tnagible force. Thats ignore the fact Raziel is too quick for Link, to get any chance of hitting raziel with something so small and of little AoE hes going to have to time it. Hows he throwing a nut while being tossed around with TK? accuratly too? hardly likely...

Nah, neither Link nor Sheik are shown fumbling with Deku Nuts, and they're AOE so aim isn't terribly important. He literally just has to toss it in Raziel's general direction to score a hit. How is it different for Raziel? Tangible force makes no real difference, and in fact Raziel's TK has been shown as a barely visible projectile on occasion. He still has to aim, as well, or how will he know what he's affecting? And what is Raziel's speed you keep going on about? Show it to me, please.

Why would he wonder that when Raziel can see the immaterial and invisible? remebmer all the thing does is make Link pretty boring. If your claiming he will disapear from material excistence or something then Raziel can see that....you could argue as well that Raziel himself has a lense of truth in his eyes, because he sees the truth of things, e.g. the Elder God, spirits floating around. Few things are hidden from him.

'K, but you're making the Stone Mask into something it isn't. Link is not immaterial , and Link is not invisible. He is unnoticeable. I'm not arguing that Link disappears, since he's still there, just unnoticeable. Do you know the concept of camouflage? Not invisible or immaterial, but still unable to be noticed. Link becomes so boring that he just blends into the background.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Because when the player gits the button, Link fires his bow. You can't deny this because it's scripted. But if you hit the button while Link is in mid air, he still fires his bow, because that is also scripted. Link performs the same animation regardless of where he is because that is what was intended. And there's the fact that of the player was unable to fire in mid air, beating Bongo Bongo would be near impossible. Since the battle takes place while Link is being thrown around on a trampolene, Link spends a significant amount of time in the air. It was obviouslu intended for Link to be able to do it, or he just wouldn't have been able to.

So what is shown only makes sense when you say it does? You're still ignoring the fact that, in order to beat Bongo Bongo, the player is [b]required to use the Bow and the Lens at the same time. Anything else is just speculation.

And that somehow makes it different? Player hits a button, Raziel/Link does something. The action still happens regardless of when or where it's done, unless there is something specifically preventing. As it happens, being in the air does not prevent Link from using his bow.

Yeah, this is the first time I've ever seen the words "player activation" being used as a substitute for "because I said so." You've never used this argument before, since before you just denied all gameplay. But now that you want to use gameplay yourself, you had to find another way to deny Link's abilities. And instead of just accepting what is shown, you're just speculating in a way to deny Link the Lens of Truth.

Subtle bashing, but still there. Link is going to "fumble" with his "little" Deku Nuts, and "attempt" to throw them, despite none of that ever happening. Hey, even Sheik doesn't reach into a pocket in cutscene, and Link makes the same motion when he throws. Too bad. So, if you're going to deny Raziel standing still as gameplay mechanics, you're going to have show me a cutscene that contradicts it. Raziel is shown to stop, and just like the Lens of Truth, assuming anything else is just speculation tilted in Raziel's favor.

Yeah, the soldier was injured. That's why Link had to give him the healing potion in the video I showed you. It just looks like invisibility because Link didn't notice him, and using the Lens let Link see his true nature. He was there, just unnoticeable. And it doesn't matter what Raziel is able to see, what matters is what Raziel won't notice.

But can he grip small objects? All Raziel has shown is brute force. I doubt he can affect the object Link is holding without affecting Link himself. And what with Link's strength, I don't think Raziel can actually get the item away from him.

Nah, neither Link nor Sheik are shown fumbling with Deku Nuts, and they're AOE so aim isn't terribly important. He literally just has to toss it in Raziel's general direction to score a hit. How is it different for Raziel? Tangible force makes no real difference, and in fact Raziel's TK has been shown as a barely visible projectile on occasion. He still has to aim, as well, or how will he know what he's affecting? And what is Raziel's speed you keep going on about? Show it to me, please.

'K, but you're making the Stone Mask into something it isn't. Link is not immaterial , and Link is not invisible. He is unnoticeable. I'm not arguing that Link disappears, since he's still there, just unnoticeable. Do you know the concept of camouflage? Not invisible or immaterial, but still unable to be noticed. Link becomes so boring that he just blends into the background. [/B]

No its not, since when is Link fireing his bow when he is in the air scripted? all player decision...the fact the animation stays the same is irrelevant, the animation is scripted but not the circumstances. I watched the video and Link is not constantly bounced up and down.

Show me how its required, show me how its impossible for Link to take a peak through his lense THEN use his bow on the target?

It makes it very different because you rely on specific area/times when this may have happened, said times are not scripted. In a real world environment hammerspace does not exist therefore Link does not have gameplay mechanics to help him, he has to draw and fire his bow using a quiver, he has to actually do something for the lense to work etc.

Nothing canon is shown, I dont accept gameplay mechanics, nobody on this forum does, their not used as part of a debate.

Yeh he will be doing all those things, nobody said Link starts with a Deku nut in his hand to throw so hes going to have to get it first. its a gameplay mechanic, I dont have to prove its not, I dont have to show a cutscene where a health bar, recharge bar or hitpoints are stated to not canonically exist do I? no.....we know what TK is, how its used therefore we know Raziel moving is irrelevant. On the other hand, we know what a Deku nut is and we know what a lense of truth is, therefore logical explanations such as him throwing one or looking through the other makes sense unless you have a contradictory cutscene.

Links the only foe around, so I should imagine he would notice.....even if Link is the most plain and boring thing there.

As small as someones wrist. If you watched the videos, the force of Raziels TK is around the legs, neck, writs etc. Ill try and find "stasis" which shows the clearest influence over those areas. As I said, nit picking, if he cant take them then Raziel can smash them, Link holding onto something wont help him, he will only help Raziel break them. Link can only hold so much.

A small AOE, less than a meter vs someone who can leap 4/5 meters in a second, show me Link accuratly throwing nuts at someone who is at least as quick as this:

1:32

YouTube video

Ofc it makes a difference, if all your doing is using Tk, your just creating force around a specified object, you dont have to target a throw, taking into account how it may bend or arc in the air to hit the right target. Raziel does manipuate space to form projectiles, but thats a different form of TK, I am not suggesting Raziel shoots projectiles at Link.

Its not described as camo, its just described as making someone "plain as stone", as plain as stone is, I dont think I would ignore someone who seems plain or basic if their attacking me, or if I had intent to kill them like Raziel does for link in this thread. Also take into account the fact Link would already seem plain to Raziel, just like any human, Link does not look exceptional.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No its not, since when is Link fireing his bow when he is in the air scripted? all player decision...the fact the animation stays the same is irrelevant, the animation is scripted but not the circumstances. I watched the video and Link is not constantly bounced up and down.

It's scripted since Link is able to do it. If he couldn't, he wouldn't. It's that simple.

Show me how its required, show me how its impossible for Link to take a peak through his lense THEN use his bow on the target?

YouTube video

Because it's required to beat the the boss. Link canonically used both items and your speculation changes nothing.

It makes it very different because you rely on specific area/times when this may have happened, said times are not scripted. In a real world environment hammerspace does not exist therefore Link does not have gameplay mechanics to help him, he has to draw and fire his bow using a quiver, he has to actually do something for the lense to work etc.

But again, you're just speculating, and we cannot take that as canon. What we have is how it is shown, and absolutely nothing contradicts it.

Nothing canon is shown, I dont accept gameplay mechanics, nobody on this forum does, their not used as part of a debate.

No, you just call them gameplay abilities if they work in your favor and gameplay mechanics if they don't. And now there's this player activation crap when Link has something that you can't explain with either of those. We go based on what we see.

Yeh he will be doing all those things, nobody said Link starts with a Deku nut in his hand to throw so hes going to have to get it first. its a gameplay mechanic, I dont have to prove its not, I dont have to show a cutscene where a health bar, recharge bar or hitpoints are stated to not canonically exist do I? no.....we know what TK is, how its used therefore we know Raziel moving is irrelevant. On the other hand, we know what a Deku nut is and we know what a lense of truth is, therefore logical explanations such as him throwing one or looking through the other makes sense unless you have a contradictory cutscene.

Sheik not reaching into a pocket in cutscene denies your theory. Now please prove that Raziel can move while using TK. We see Link not looking through it and nothing has contradicted that yet.

Links the only foe around, so I should imagine he would notice.....even if Link is the most plain and boring thing there.

And you're ignoring the legitimate ability of the mask. That soldier screamed and waved his arms at people for years without being noticed, so Raziel won't notice Link either.

As small as someones wrist. If you watched the videos, the force of Raziels TK is around the legs, neck, writs etc. Ill try and find "stasis" which shows the clearest influence over those areas. As I said, nit picking, if he cant take them then Raziel can smash them, Link holding onto something wont help him, he will only help Raziel break them. Link can only hold so much.

Can you prove that Raziel's TK is still as strong when affecting such a small area? A big burst might be pretty strong, but a continuous tiny pull is something else entirely. So far we know it's only strong enough to hold a few hundred pounds, and Link will hold onto that easily.

A small AOE, less than a meter vs someone who can leap 4/5 meters in a second, show me Link accuratly throwing nuts at someone who is at least as quick as this:

That's not rwally as fast as you seem to think it is. Link will be able to see him coming and throw where he'll land, since Raziel can't change direction in mid air without his wings, and they slow him down immensely.

Ofc it makes a difference, if all your doing is using Tk, your just creating force around a specified object, you dont have to target a throw, taking into account how it may bend or arc in the air to hit the right target. Raziel does manipuate space to form projectiles, but thats a different form of TK, I am not suggesting Raziel shoots projectiles at Link.

But he still has to pick out the specific object he wants to move, so he must aim at that object and then make the force, and then throw. Link can just point and throw. Aim is not too important with the AOE.

Its not described as camo, its just described as making someone "plain as stone", as plain as stone is, I dont think I would ignore someone who seems plain or basic if their attacking me, or if I had intent to kill them like Raziel does for link in this thread. Also take into account the fact Link would already seem plain to Raziel, just like any human, Link does not look exceptional.

Link normally boring Raziel would probably just make it more effective. Again, screaming and waving, as well as shooting someone with a bow, have not been noticed when someone is wearing the Stone Mask. I don't see why Raziel would be any different.

Originally posted by The Scenario
It's scripted since Link is able to do it. If he couldn't, he wouldn't. It's that simple.

YouTube video

Because it's required to beat the the boss. Link canonically used both items and your speculation changes nothing.

But again, you're just speculating, and we cannot take that as canon. What we have is how it is shown, and absolutely nothing contradicts it.

No, you just call them gameplay abilities if they work in your favor and gameplay mechanics if they don't. And now there's this player activation crap when Link has something that you can't explain with either of those. We go based on what we see.

Sheik not reaching into a pocket in cutscene denies your theory. Now please prove that Raziel can move while using TK. We see Link not looking through it and nothing has contradicted that yet.

And you're ignoring the legitimate ability of the mask. That soldier screamed and waved his arms at people for years without being noticed, so Raziel won't notice Link either.

Can you prove that Raziel's TK is still as strong when affecting such a small area? A big burst might be pretty strong, but a continuous tiny pull is something else entirely. So far we know it's only strong enough to hold a few hundred pounds, and Link will hold onto that easily.

That's not rwally as fast as you seem to think it is. Link will be able to see him coming and throw where he'll land, since Raziel can't change direction in mid air without his wings, and they slow him down immensely.

But he still has to pick out the specific object he wants to move, so he must aim at that object and then make the force, and then throw. Link can just point and throw. Aim is not too important with the AOE.

Link normally boring Raziel would probably just make it more effective. Again, screaming and waving, as well as shooting someone with a bow, have not been noticed when someone is wearing the Stone Mask. I don't see why Raziel would be any different.

Its scripted that he can pull a bow, not when and where....e.g. not while in the air.

My speculation also calls for him using both items. Your speculation on it randomly activating is just, if not more redant as it has more assumptions attributed to it. And you did not counter me by showing the video again, i asked you to prove why its impossible.

And all that is shown is gameplay mechanics, therefore its completly defaulted as a useless/non feat item and cannot be used in threads if you want to claim logic cannot be used involving it.

😆 its a damn mechanic, a player activating something within a menu, something thats apprently floating around in a gameplay hammerspace is not a canon control of an item.

Ok, so your claiming Link is allowed to start off with a Deku nut in hand? my "theory" if you can call it that is that Link does not start with every single one of his items already activating, as thats not typically how fights begin here.

Who said anything about screaming? and the soldier is irrelevant, he does not wear the stone mask.

Your question is redundant, why should Raziels TK be weaker just because hes using it on something smaller? why would I prove or disprove a question that makes no logical sense? Raziels Tk is strong enough to push tonnes when concentrated into blasts, and when picking things up can do it to armoured soldiers, Link has few items as heavy as that. Also you ignore the fact Link will help Raziel break his items.

Yeh well, you saying that does not counter it does it really, I could say the same about any movement or activity that Link does, wouldnt counter it. Show me Link throwing a small nut, with a small AoE so accuratly please. Your talking about Link as if he has incredible reaction times, can determine exactly where Razeil will fall and throw his nut with perfect accuracy in less than a second.

Because Raziel is not contained within gameplay, neither is a VS debate, actual canon does not support your view that Link is inconcievable in all ways, shapes or forms. All it does based on canon description is make him plain.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its scripted that he can pull a bow, not when and where....e.g. not while in the air.

But if he was unable to do it, he would not do it. Simple.

My speculation also calls for him using both items. Your speculation on it randomly activating is just, if not more redant as it has more assumptions attributed to it. And you did not counter me by showing the video again, i asked you to prove why its impossible.

I'm going based off of what the game shows us, and you are not. Also simple. Link canonically defeated Bongo Bongo,and you need to use both at once to beat him.

And all that is shown is gameplay mechanics, therefore its completly defaulted as a useless/non feat item and cannot be used in threads if you want to claim logic cannot be used involving it.

Nah, it's a gameplay ability. The function is the feat, right?

😆 its a damn mechanic, a player activating something within a menu, something thats apprently floating around in a gameplay hammerspace is not a canon control of an item.

But that is, in fact, how it is shown to work, and speculating that Link must pull it out goes against everything that is shown. There is no evidence for your theory, and until there is, it will remain just a theory.

Ok, so your claiming Link is allowed to start off with a Deku nut in hand? my "theory" if you can call it that is that Link does not start with every single one of his items already activating, as thats not typically how fights begin here.

No, the point of the Sheik video was to prove that Link doesn't need to reach into a pocket to pull out a Deku Nut. Whether this means they appear in his hand or he can reach them quickly is irrelevant as the cutscene showns no fumbling.

Who said anything about screaming? and the soldier is irrelevant, he does not wear the stone mask.

The soldier states that he was waving his arms and yelling at people for years without being noticed. He then gives Link the Stone Mask and only after than can he be seen without the Lens of Truth.

Your question is redundant, why should Raziels TK be weaker just because hes using it on something smaller? why would I prove or disprove a question that makes no logical sense? Raziels Tk is strong enough to push tonnes when concentrated into blasts, and when picking things up can do it to armoured soldiers, Link has few items as heavy as that. Also you ignore the fact Link will help Raziel break his items.

If Raziel is using it differently, you can't assume that the same strength carries over. It's logical that a smaller application would have smaller force. This is even supported since Raziel needs at least two shacles to hold someone, which splits the force needed for each shackle in two. Link could easily hold onto his items under that, and Raziel will be leaving himself open since he can't move while using TK. Even if he takes one, he'll be open to an attack by every other item Link has.

Yeh well, you saying that does not counter it does it really, I could say the same about any movement or activity that Link does, wouldnt counter it. Show me Link throwing a small nut, with a small AoE so accuratly please. Your talking about Link as if he has incredible reaction times, can determine exactly where Razeil will fall and throw his nut with perfect accuracy in less than a second.

If Raziel's just jumping around, all Link has to do is wait until he stops to do anything, or throw the nut once Raziel jumps close enough. Link just throws the nut in front of himself in any case. I'm not saying Link needs super reaction time, since it's easy to follow Raziel's path and he only needs to throw in a general direction.

Because Raziel is not contained within gameplay, neither is a VS debate, actual canon does not support your view that Link is inconcievable in all ways, shapes or forms. All it does based on canon description is make him plain.

And based on evidence and the soldier's statement, it makes Link unnoticeable even if he was screaming. Which does support my view. Saying that Raziel will see Link anyway is ignoring this.

Originally posted by The Scenario
But if he was unable to do it, he would not do it. Simple.

I'm going based off of what the game shows us, and you are not. Also simple. Link canonically defeated Bongo Bongo,and you need to use both at once to beat him.

Nah, it's a gameplay ability. The function is the feat, right?

But that is, in fact, how it is shown to work, and speculating that Link must pull it out goes against everything that is shown. There is no evidence for your theory, and until there is, it will remain just a theory.

No, the point of the Sheik video was to prove that Link doesn't need to reach into a pocket to pull out a Deku Nut. Whether this means they appear in his hand or he can reach them quickly is irrelevant as the cutscene showns no fumbling.

The soldier states that he was waving his arms and yelling at people for years without being noticed. He then gives Link the Stone Mask and only after than can he be seen without the Lens of Truth.

If Raziel is using it differently, you can't assume that the same strength carries over. It's logical that a smaller application would have smaller force. This is even supported since Raziel needs at least two shacles to hold someone, which splits the force needed for each shackle in two. Link could easily hold onto his items under that, and Raziel will be leaving himself open since he can't move while using TK. Even if he takes one, he'll be open to an attack by every other item Link has.

If Raziel's just jumping around, all Link has to do is wait until he stops to do anything, or throw the nut once Raziel jumps close enough. Link just throws the nut in front of himself in any case. I'm not saying Link needs super reaction time, since it's easy to follow Raziel's path and he only needs to throw in a general direction.

And based on evidence and the soldier's statement, it makes Link unnoticeable even if he was screaming. Which does support my view. Saying that Raziel will see Link anyway is ignoring this.

He did not do it, only in uncanon gameplay, player chosen.

The game shows us gameplay mechanics, if you think your allowed to use any gameplay mechanic from hammerspace to player activations then you are quite mistaken, this is not a gameplay activated match iirc.

Its not even that, its a gameplay mechanic if all we can do is use what we see.

Which is negated by the fact we dont use gameplay mechanics. I think the object being a looking glass that gives link the ability to see such things is the evidecne in itself, what evidence do you have? players selecting it in the hammerspace screen? 😉

Hardly irrelevant, he has to get them somehow, and he does not have a hammerspace irl unless you can prove it mentioned canonically ofc. Which means their somewhere on his person.

He states he was asking for help, I dont recall him saying he was yelling. And thats besides the point, the Soldier did not wear the mask, the fact he suddenly becomes visible is irrelevant.

Why? why cant I claim the strength of TK, does not carry over to what he TK's? thats the whole point of TK.....thats like saying if Mew Two can control hurricanes with TK, then he cannot use the force he used on a hurricane in a smaller area, this is daft as the TK strength is still there, it does not diminish unless one chooses to diminish it.

Thats if he stops to do anything, he does not have to stop to do anything other than perhaps use a reaver spell. Theres no reason why Raziel uses superior speed to get well out of range of Link and then just uses reaver spells, only to return and rip link apart. I would not be surprised if Raziel just Tks a thrown nut back at Link or breaks it in his hands with Tk.

The soldier does not wear the mask, so the mask is not relevant. Raziel can see things that nobody else can see, if this is a question of sight then Raziel can see the inconcievable (elder god, spirits etc) if this is not, and its just a trick to make Link seem plain like the mask does, then he does not have the same advantage because being plain does not stop someone whos aim it is to kill from noticing you.

Good lord, BT, how your mind has frayed,
trying to discredit a game you've never played,
you label any advantage you can a mechanic,
with an impressive speed that's borderline manic.
Any feat you don't like, you ignore, or call fanon
all while Scenario drowns you in canon.

Raziel's speed, despite your claim is below Link's own,
and you've tried, unsuccessfully, to discredit the mask of stone,
you've forgotten Raziel's TK will not work, and you're wanking
Raziel to your best, but your argument is busy tanking.
You claim Raziel's stronger with an inferior feat,
you're either biased, or your head's been beat. =|

Either way, I don't care, the short version is you're wrong,
and I've been wasting logic on you for far too long. 131

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Good lord, BT, how your mind has frayed,
trying to discredit a game you've never played,
you label any advantage you can a mechanic,
with an impressive speed that's borderline manic.
Any feat you don't like, you ignore, or call fanon
all while Scenario drowns you in canon.

Raziel's speed, despite your claim is below Link's own,
and you've tried, unsuccessfully, to discredit the mask of stone,
you've forgotten Raziel's TK will not work, and you're wanking
Raziel to your best, but your argument is busy tanking.
You claim Raziel's stronger with an inferior feat,
you're either biased, or your head's been beat. =|

Either way, I don't care, the short version is you're wrong,
and I've been wasting logic on you for far too long. 131

Amusing, especially the last part about you using logic, that made me lol....but no, most of this poem is a lie, but when fiction is concerned I will let it by since after all you have little knowledge on Raziel and the feats he can accomplish..

Feats like tipping over that phallic shaped tower?
Impressive? Compared to Link, Raziel lacks power.

The lens of truth, and item Link never holds,
you claim must be held, that is quite bold,
for a boy who has not even played the game,
to try to tell those who have about it, is a shame.

Power is irrelevant when speed and durability are at such a poor extent. Links small count in jouls Raziel does not fear, his claws and hands create far more when compared.