Raziel vs OOT Link

Originally posted by Burning thought
Raziel lifted up 700 tons. Taking into account was Gk said in off-topic about opposite/equel forces and considering Raziel is a supernaturally enhanced vampire where strength is part of his power set throughout the games ( a very important part of his power set) then its logical.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
So there's a thought going around now that Raziel pushed like...300 tons? How'd he find the footing for that? Sounds unrealistic and illogical to me.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
haermm and it's ILLogical when a hero chosen by the gods with a peice of the triforce does it.... Right? Bias. -.-
Raziel toppled over a very tall 700 ton mass, putting his strength at 300 kilojoules, is not a 300 ton overhead lift. 😛

Not at all bias is it when Divine beings such as Kratos, Demons such as Dante or vampires are canonically and logically evaluated as strong/fast etc throughout the game. A hero "chosen by the Gods" is not a feat, spiecies or logical connection to strength which is another reason why linky pulling what Bardock said in the other thread as "pulling feats out ouf his ass" is not logical.

What Raziel did was arguably harder, simply without the required durability/balance to hold something above himself. He still pulled its whole weight of 700 tons off the ground and sent it to the floor. Only Raziel "does not need gauntlets" and does it without sighs/grunts of effort 🙂

Originally posted by Burning thought
Not at all bias is it when Divine beings such as Kratos, Demons such as Dante or vampires are canonically and logically evaluated as strong/fast etc throughout the game. A hero "chosen by the Gods" is not a feat, spiecies or logical connection to strength which is another reason why linky pulling what Bardock said in the other thread as "pulling feats out ouf his ass" is not logical.

What Raziel did was arguably harder, simply without the required durability/balance to hold something above himself. He still pulled its whole weight of 700 tons off the ground and sent it to the floor. Only Raziel "does not need gauntlets" and does it without sighs/grunts of effort 🙂

What Raziel did was give gravity a hand. He toppled it, this is not sufficient for an overhead lift of 300 tons. 😐

Show me where theres any specification? the LoK, DMC, GoW games clearly outline how the spiecies of God, Demon, Vampire etc is superior to a human or otherwise has special traits throughout. Your assuming the triforce of Courage gives Link strength? what brings you to that conclusion?

Give gravity a hand? gravity was against him while he quickly and easily lifted it up off the ground. The only time gravity gave him a hand was after Raziel flipped it quickly over. This does not discredit the fact he can lift up with ease 700 tons with a single movement.

Let's not bullshit any longer here.

I saw the pillar throwing again. Link didn't struggle a single bit. He lifted the thing off the ground just as easy as Raziel merely tilted up one side of it.

And then Link threw it. Quite Easily.

Using the grunts(not even grunts, more like karate-esque shouts), which he does for everything, is a reach to say it was a struggle seeing as his actions show no struggle at all.

Hey. I guess Link just likes to make sounds when he lifts and tosses pillars. More power to him.

Ganondorf himself mentions the power of the triforce of courage, play the game. Even if he hadn't, Link still displays consistent super-human attributes, therefore, he's super-human.

Go do the math for yourself. haermm Since you're soooo good at it. He toppled it, flipped it the way two men who cannot lift a car, can flip it over. Raziel NEVER lifted it off of the ground, never supported it's whole weight, he tipped it. Lifted a portion of it's weight part way off the ground, and gravity did the rest.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Let's not bullshit any longer here.

I saw the pillar throwing again. Link didn't struggle a single bit. He [b]lifted the thing off the ground just as easy as Raziel merely tilted up one side of it.

And then Link threw it. Quite Easily.

Using the grunts(not even grunts, more like karate-esque shouts), which he does for everything, is a reach to say it was a struggle seeing as his actions show no struggle at all.

Hey. I guess Link just likes to make sounds when he lifts and tosses pillars. More power to him. [/B]

He rubbed his hands together like he does when he lifts something clearly heavy for him and he makes a strain, thats audiable and your excuse is that it was "karate-esque" shouts? 🙄 I dsiagree, it sounds to me just like a sound a guy straining to lift something. The speed he lifts it at supports me, he lifts it slowly at around 2000 joules. Raziel quickly and easily without a sound bent low like Link did to pick his block up but instead of slowly lifting it, he throws it over.

If Link could do it easily why would he lift it first? why did he not go from crouching position to lift it and toss it from there? logically he cant.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Ganondorf himself mentions the power of the triforce of courage, play the game. Even if he hadn't, Link still displays consistent super-human attributes, therefore, he's super-human.

Go do the math for yourself. haermm Since you're soooo good at it. He toppled it, flipped it the way two men who cannot lift a car, can flip it over. Raziel NEVER lifted it off of the ground, never supported it's whole weight, he tipped it. Lifted a portion of it's weight part way off the ground, and gravity did the rest.

You did not in any way counter my arguments. You simply claimed Ganondorf apprently mensions its power, which is what you said before.

I dont need to, Bloodrain did it for me 😉 . What? your not watching the scene at all are you? The Obelisk is standing straight, and Raziel puts his hand under and takes the whole lot of it apart from perhaps one edge off the ground, thats all of its weight. He does it quickly and easily. Gravity only knocks it over after Raziel lifts it over enough for it to fall, that does not discredit that 700 tons was just taken and pulled over by Raziel.

A grunt does not signify anything. Soccer players grunt when they kick a soccer ball, football players grunt when they kick it, baseball players grunt when they throw it. That doesn't mean it's a difficult action.

And hell BT, have you even watched the damn video in the last year? Personally, I'm doubting it.

It does not have to be difficult, it shows their putting effort into something. Link would not grunt if it was effortless and fast like Raziels. Also a noise a soccer player would make when kicking a ball does not sound like what Link makes when he lifts something anyway, he makes an audiable sound of discomfort/stress.

Originally posted by Burning thought
He rubbed his hands together like he does when he lifts something clearly heavy for him and he makes a strain, thats audiable and your excuse is that it was "karate-esque" shouts? 🙄 I dsiagree, it sounds to me just like a sound a guy straining to lift something. The speed he lifts it at supports me, he lifts it slowly at around 2000 joules. Raziel quickly and easily without a sound bent low like Link did to pick his block up but instead of slowly lifting it, he throws it over.

If Link could do it easily why would he lift it first? why did he not go from crouching position to lift it and toss it from there? logically he cant.

You did not in any way counter my arguments. You simply claimed Ganondorf apprently mensions its power, which is what you said before.

I dont need to, Bloodrain did it for me 😉 . What? your not watching the scene at all are you? The Obelisk is standing straight, and Raziel puts his hand under and takes the whole lot of it apart from perhaps one edge off the ground, thats all of its weight. He does it quickly and easily. Gravity only knocks it over after Raziel lifts it over enough for it to fall, that does not discredit that 700 tons was just taken and pulled over by Raziel.

Also, quit joking, 2kj wouldn't even budge the pillar Link threw.

A grunt only confirmed Link is actually taking the physical straing of the pillar, proving he's physicly adequate to handle it.

Show me your calculation. a 700 ton object being bested by Raziels strength by him pulling its weight off the ground does not lose 400 tons just because gravity helps it once its tilted. The object is still pulled over, Link would not even be able to get it up, infact even if he could he would struggle considering 650 tons was slow and strained him.

Your right, it was 75kj, my bad.

Note physical strain, unlike Raziel who has no such problems, he just grabs it by the bottom and sends it over.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Show me your calculation. a 700 ton object being bested by Raziels strength by him pulling its weight off the ground does not lose 400 tons just because gravity helps it once its tilted. The object is still pulled over, Link would not even be able to get it up, infact even if he could he would struggle considering 650 tons was slow and strained him.

Your right, it was 75kj, my bad.

Note physical [b]strain, unlike Raziel who has no such problems, he just grabs it by the bottom and sends it over. [/B]

K = 1/2mv^2

m = 635029.317
v = 1

IE, K = 1/2 635029.317 * 1 ^2

K = 317 514.65899982

317 kj.

He rubbed his hands together like he does when he lifts something clearly heavy for him and he makes a strain, thats audiable and your excuse is that it was "karate-esque" shouts? roll eyes (sarcastic) I dsiagree, it sounds to me just like a sound a guy straining to lift something. The speed he lifts it at supports me, he lifts it slowly at around 2000 joules. Raziel quickly and easily without a sound bent low like Link did to pick his block up but instead of slowly lifting it, he throws it over. If Link could do it easily why would he lift it first? why did he not go from crouching position to lift it and toss it from there? logically he cant.

-He rubs his hands. Ok. What does this signify other than a point you wish to magnify to mean more than what the end results show? Nothing.

-He lifted it. Off the ground. Easily. There was no wavering in the lifting speed, nor did his arms buckle from the strain. Raziel didn't make a sound, but then he has hardly any battle grunts to recycle in the first place. Also, Raziel's tipping over and pushing took a full 2 seconds whereas Link LIFTED the entire thing off the ground in a second of him reach down to grab it. Link is operating at a greater strength level here as Raziel is only tilting up (and by definition this means only part of the weight is being operated on) of a similar sized object.

-The sounds mean nothing when the visuals take precedence. It is a reach. Hell, his 'grunt' when he threw it was even less than the 'grunt' when he initiated the action. That tells us the necessary strain he required was nothing great. You can try get somewhere with this pointless deconstruction i.e. 'why didn't he just toss it from the start', but it is just that, pointless.

There is no contradiction anywhere, there is nothing that requires that he had to toss it from the start. I suppose it's just Nintendo's way of demonstrating that Link is 'building up strength'. The simple explanations that don't even need to be mentioned in the first place, such as mine, are the ones that are accepted. Simply a general tenet.

Also, the 'grunt' argument is pretty bunk anyway as its not consistent. In Scenario's video, he makes two different initial sounds when he lifts up the two pillars, the similarity is that both times they are brief unstraining combat sounds, these are not equal to the sorting long, teeth gritting groan associated with weight struggling.The only consistent thing about them is that the short sound he makes as he's tossing it.

-There is no conclusion to make but that Link's feat is clearly the better one.

How can velocity be 1?

Originally posted by Burning thought
How can velocity be 1?

Originally posted by CosmicComet
-He rubs his hands. Ok. What does this signify other than a point you wish to magnify to mean more than what the end results show? Nothing.

-He lifted it. Off the ground. Easily. There was no wavering in the lifting speed, nor did his arms buckle from the strain. Raziel didn't make a sound, but then he has hardly any battle grunts to recycle in the first place. Also, Raziel's tipping over and pushing took a full 2 seconds whereas Link LIFTED the entire thing off the ground in a second of him reach down to grab it. Link is operating at a greater strength level here as Raziel is only tilting up (and by definition this means only part of the weight is being operated on) of a similar sized object.

-The sounds mean nothing when the visuals take precedence. It is a reach. Hell, his 'grunt' when he threw it was even less than the 'grunt' when he initiated the action. That tells us the necessary strain he required was nothing great. You can try get somewhere with this pointless deconstruction i.e. 'why didn't he just toss it from the start', but it is just that, pointless.

There is no contradiction anywhere, there is nothing that requires that he had to toss it from the start. I suppose it's just Nintendo's way of demonstrating that Link is 'building up strength'. The simple explanations that don't even need to be mentioned in the first place, such as mine, are the ones that are accepted. Simply a general tenet.

Also, the 'grunt' argument is pretty bunk anyway as its not consistent. In Scenario's video, he makes two different initial sounds when he lifts up the two pillars, the similarity is that both times they are brief unstraining combat sounds, these are not equal to the sorting long, teeth gritting groan associated with weight struggling.The only consistent thing about them is that the short sound he makes as he's tossing it.

-There is no conclusion to make but that Link's feat is clearly the better one.

- Why would someone rub their hands together unless its something heavy? its a typical action.

- Define easily? it took him several seconds to get it less than half his height above the ground. Thats not easy, he used 75kj of force which is very little considering the numbers screampaste wants to use, such as 3.5gj. If he could lift it easily, it would be quicker and easier and without the grunt because he would not have had any effort.

-I think its a reach to ignore the grunts or call them "karate like" when its at the perfect timing for him to feel strain. Not exactly pointless, the developers have him rubbing his hands, grunting AND slowly lifting it all indications of high effort.

Based on a throw that previous evidence suggests as impossible.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Would you like me to use a more accurate decimal, such as 0.5? 😐 (Badly shrinking Raziel's strength)

It would be far quicker than that, Links is at 0.5 and he does not move the pillar as quickly as Raziel.

mariofacepalm

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Gameplay obstacle over-written by canon cutscene and the fact that Ganon's own greater power cannot transform Link, why should some fog be able to do so?

The sword is sentient, I don't recall Moo making that argument, but I don't recall Midna being evil, either. An act of self sacrifice is about as good as it gets.

YouTube video
1:10 and 1:18 ^what the fog is made of. Thats one canon instance saying that it can still effect him to theories of how it doesn't.

Scenario said it a few times in his posts, and her tribes magic is evil.

So Link's body cant take the same force as his arms?

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
mariofacepalm

You must have had Raziels velocity at 1 meter/1 second to get 1, which is false. What did you math Raziel as? a dwarf?

Originally posted by Burning thought
You must have had Raziels velocity at 1 meter/1 second to get 1, which is false. What did you math Raziel as? a dwarf?