Kratos VS Akuma and Gouken

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Sorry for the Double Post.

Addendum:

The very source your using (IE the Udon comics) already contadicts this.

Very clearly, Gouken's body was not "Taken out of existance". Therefore your reasoning for Mu giving Gouken the ability to create a new body is entirely a myth, until something comes along to prove it's existance.

Besides, the power of Mu "Creating" anything is contradictory to it's very nature and meaning...

However, we cannot assume anything, As I stated, we HAVE to take primary canon as the superceding canon until actual retcons are done. The reason for this: People's oppinions can and do change over time, game development staff are no different.

Completely irrelevant unless we are talking aboiut unanswered questions and blank spots, which this is not.

However, despite the inconsistancies, the rule of primary canon remains. If lesser canon contradicts what is in higher cannon, then the lesser canon is disreguarded, even if it is more stupid.

Firstly, since it was developed for Udon's story arch in mind, it is relegated to C level canon at best. Secondly, if it gets upgraded to B Level, it's still superceded by A level canon, which still shoots this out of the water.

That said, I trust the japanese sources more reguardless, you know this already, however, saying that, Cap of USA still has higher authority than UDON does.

1. Good logic, however, it's not right. You can't argue with the people who made the game.

2. You missed that point, so never mind.

3.This canon is not lesser. It is Word of God, given to us via UDON.

4. No it's not. Matt Moylan has stated on Capcom's own forums that the information provided was taken from translations of the Japanese source books, the American games (USA owns SF now), and the producers themselves. UDON's story arch in not in mind. That is a terrible assumption. There is info given about characters and events that have never even occured and appeared in the comic. Case and point, Ingrid.

5. You can trust JP sources more than anything, all you want. That's your prerogative and all I can do is respect it. However, it does not and will never change the fact that Cap of Japan gave up on SF and all its other fighting IPs and the USA is the one that gave the series and others the chance it deserves and is now in charge of SF and 90% of Cap's other fighting games.

Originally posted by No End N Site
The difference is, that's from a non canon comic and much of SF's history has been retconned in SFIV. And The part about Mu givin' Gouken the power to create a new body is taken from a book that compiles SF's official canon. And the fact that it contridicts what Mu means is meaningless. Cammy is an exact clone of Bison despite the clone being a 'her' and has blonde hair. It's a work of fiction. What Capcom states is not a myth, you just have to learn to except it. I can post scans of the passage if you wish. In fact, tomorrow, I will.

The fact remains that the sourcebook your using to substantiate your claim directly inferrs to the comic series you just tried to refute. And as I said, higher cannon still refutes it in the form of Gouken's own quote. vague or not, until the power is demonstrated, if it contradicts higher canon, then it's out according to debating rules.

Originally posted by No End N Site
My intent is not to mislead, only to inform.

I know that, and I'm not accusing you of anything. But uniformity of information is as important as the information itself. T'is why we have rules and tiers of canon.

Originally posted by No End N Site
1. Good logic, however, it's not right. You can't argue with the people who made the game.

Yes you can, if it contradicts the source they are speaking of, then you take on-screen evidence over any individual statements.

Originally posted by No End N Site
2. You missed that point, so never mind.

Your point was producers and development staff's intent, my point was, it does not exist until it's on screen. and until that happens, highest source prevails over everything else, including staff statements.

Originally posted by No End N Site
3.This canon is not lesser. It is Word of God, given to us via UDON.

See above. Canon tiers dictate on-screen evidence from the source material overrides everything else. if the information contained within the book contadicts primary canon, then primary canon takes presidence. IE: Primary canon = the videogames themselves.

Originally posted by No End N Site
4. No it's not. Matt Moylan has stated on Capcom's own forums that the information provided was taken from translations of the Japanese source books, the American games (USA owns SF now), and the producers themselves. UDON's story arch in not in mind. That is a terrible assumption. There is info given about characters and events that have never even occured and appeared in the comic. Case and point, Ingrid.

Which still leaves ups with the original point. Source material (The games) stll supercede any and all sourcebooks if it's contents contradict the games themselves, despite staff saying one thing or another. Remember this: The 2nd tier of canon is the sourcebooks and development statements, the 1st (highest) order of canon tiers is the games, and the games must take precidence over everything else.

Originally posted by No End N Site
5. You can trust JP sources more than anything, all you want. That's your prerogative and all I can do is respect it. However, it does not and will never change the fact that Cap of Japan gave up on SF and all its other fighting IPs and the USA is the one that gave the series and others the chance it deserves and is now in charge of SF and 90% of Cap's other fighting games.

Only recently did that happen No End, Remeber, before all that happened, CJP had control of the primary canon for the better part of 20 years. This does not mean that CJP ranks lower in authority than Udon...

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
The fact remains that the sourcebook your using to substantiate your claim directly inferrs to the comic series you just tried to refute. And as I said, higher cannon still refutes it in the form of Gouken's own quote. vague or not, until the power is demonstrated, if it contradicts higher canon, then it's out according to debating rules.

None of what you just posted was true about the SFWWE. Matt Moylan has already told readers that this is for SF, not the comic.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I know that, and I'm not accusing you of anything. But uniformity of information is as important as the information itself. T'is why we have rules and tiers of canon.

These 'rules' are wrong, DSZ. Capcom themselves want you to look to this book of canon info, and 95% of the info in the book coincide with canon. You can't just pick what you want.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Yes you can, if it contradicts the source they are speaking of, then you take on-screen evidence over any individual statements.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Your point was producers and development staff's intent, my point was, it does not exist until it's on screen. and until that happens, highest source prevails over everything else, including staff statements.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
See above. Canon tiers dictate on-screen evidence from the source material overrides everything else. if the information contained within the book contadicts primary canon, then primary canon takes presidence. IE: Primary canon = the videogames themselves.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Which still leaves ups with the original point. Source material (The games) stll supercede any and all sourcebooks if it's contents contradict the games themselves, despite staff saying one thing or another. Remember this: The 2nd tier of canon is the sourcebooks and development statements, the 1st (highest) order of canon tiers is the games, and the games must take precidence over everything else.

Again, that's you're version of what matters. The Word of God is the Word of God. Doesn't matter what's in the game if the creators tell you themselves what you need to know.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Only recently did that happen No End, Remeber, before all that happened, CJP had control of the primary canon for the better part of 20 years. This does not mean that CJP ranks lower in authority than Udon...

Not that recently, Cap USA has owned SF, MVC, CVS, DS, P.Sword, PS (almost all of RS and PJ) and a few others for almost, that last 7 or so years. Everything CapJP has done for those series is owned and controlled by Cap USA. If they want, they could retcon everything and start from scratch. CapJP ranks were ever CapUSA wants it to. And at this point, CapUSA has lef it to UDON to dish out canon facts.

You seem to be confused about the book as a whole. UDON didn't make the book from nothing, clealy, it's official.

Originally posted by No End N Site
None of what you just posted was true about the SFWWE. Matt Moylan has already told readers that this is for SF, not the comic.

Unfortunately, Matt is not the source material.

Originally posted by No End N Site
These 'rules' are wrong, DSZ. Capcom themselves want you to look to this book of canon info, and 95% of the info in the book coincide with canon. You can't just pick what you want.

There 'Wrong' Because.... why again? Because you say so?

No, you can't, thats the entire point of established tiers of canonicity. The secondary sources are as official in parts that Do Not contradict primary canon. The parts that do contradict are considered non canon. These rules are true for any debate.

Originally posted by No End N Site
I tell you now, there are not many who will agree with holdin' the product itself over the very words of the company that made the product. That sounds backwards.

How is it backwards when personal oppinion can be held to a higher standard than what is shown? I'm sorry but that is not logical.

Originally posted by No End N Site
I disagree for reasons already stated. There would be no need to ask Capcom employees things if everything that appears in the game was true. The fact is that if none of us asked questions, the community as a whole would know alot less about SF. Everything you see in the game is not true.

Thats the kind of backward logic that gave rise to oppinionated versions of the story like Tiamat's FAQ and Sado22 clones. Please tell me your not walking that path dude.

Originally posted by No End N Site
And...For this case...That is wrong.

Again, based on what? Look dude, simply giving Gouken Jedah like regen might sound like a good idea for forum debates, but your reasoning is inherently flawed, one for the quote I gave you, and i can give another example.

Gouki's ending, where immediately after learning that Gouken had the power of Mu, he challenged him to a Death Match, knowing that Gouken was eternal would have made this action entirely meaningless. And since he knew what Mu was before Gouken even spoke tells me Gouki had prio knowlege of Mu from the start.

Do you see what I'm pointing out to you? The viable contradictory nature of SFWWE has to the actual source material is plainly obvious. And as stated before, By rule of canonicity, higher canon must take precedence. Or do you seriopusly expect people to swallow book based information over the primary source?

Originally posted by No End N Site
Again, that's you're version of what matters. The Word of God is the Word of God. Doesn't matter what's in the game if the creators tell you themselves what you need to know.

*Shakes head* That only applies if the information they provide is not contradictory to the game. If it is, then the game trumps their oppinion. The reason for this is, as I said the game is simply THE source material.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Not that recently, Cap USA has owned SF, MVC, CVS, DS, P.Sword, PS (almost all of RS and PJ) and a few others for almost, that last 7 or so years. Everything CapJP has done for those series is owned and controlled by Cap USA. If they want, they could retcon everything and start from scratch. CapJP ranks were ever CapUSA wants it to. And at this point, CapUSA has lef it to UDON to dish out canon facts.

Well, until those retcons happen, we take what we have, and when Udon actually makes this in a way that doesn't contradict primary canon, I would be more than happy to eat my humble pie.

Originally posted by No End N Site
You seem to be confused about the book as a whole. UDON didn't make the book from nothing, clealy, it's official.

Your basing this off of what? Vague extrapolation form a guy that even though makes a lot of canon material is not employed by Capcom? His "facts" contradicted primary canon in this case, and until a retcon comes along that dissipates this, i'm afraid I must uphole canon rules.

Dude, we are just gonna have to agree to disagree. Cuz there is simply no gettin' outta this argument. We just think 2 totaly different things. I will say that I have never come across the rules you have presented to me...ever.

^I just bought the book from borders/amazon 2day. Altho, there isn't a lot of Nstances of this, it does seem like Capcom has borrowed a few event's from the Udon comic.

1. Gen fighting Gouki, long B4 SFA. And Gen winning.

2. Rose not being an expulsion of Bison's good half, but another person Ntirely who just happens 2 have the same soul. The roles also seem 2 B reversed from what was said N A3, as Rose is stated 2 B the 1 that taught Bison the Soul power.

3. Ryu and Sagat having fought more than what's been shown N the games. And Ryu even besting Sagat a few times, or at least once. Altho, this has been discovered recently across the board N SFIV.

All and all, not that bad. Not bad @ all. I really don't think rather this book talks about canon or not can B disputed. If Capcom says that's what happened, than we just have 2 accept it. It's always been a shame that the fans have known more about the series than the creators do.

Originally posted by Frisky Dingo
If Capcom says that's what happened, than we just have 2 accept it. It's always been a shame that the fans have known more about the series than the creators do.

This!

And I hate the fact that DSZ would throw in a jab like, "simply giving Gouken Jedah like regen might sound like a good idea for forum debates", when it clearly would be of no use in a debate since it would still take him years to do so. Sensless comments like that have no place in a reasoanble discussion and only helps to start fires.

I found this, also...

http://www.capcom-unity.com/street_fighter/go/thread/view/7411/5205021/?pg=last#474127985

Originally posted by No End N Site
And I hate the fact that DSZ would throw in a jab like, [B]"simply giving Gouken Jedah like regen might sound like a good idea for forum debates", when it clearly would be of no use in a debate since it would still take him years to do so. Sensless comments like that have no place in a reasoanble discussion and only helps to start fires.[/B]

Are you kidding me? My entire line of questioning, (And thusly bringing up rules of canonicity) was in direct response to your first post.

Originally posted by No End N Site
One thing I wanna know, how the hell is Kratos gonna kill Gouken? We are aware that Gouken's immortality is on Jedah level. "The Power of Nothingness" makes him unkillable. Vaporizing his body won't work. Sending his soul to hell...wont work and I aint talkin' about no greek hell (Hades), I'm talkin' about Hell-Hell.

Right here. If Gouken's regen is useless, then why did you bother bringing it up? Your entire defence of your position just crumbled... You based this off of a nonsensical peice found within a sourcebook that is directly contradictory in it's very statement to Gouken's own words in SFIV, and Gouki's own words in the same game.

You then want me to beleive that this supposed source of yours somehow Supercedes the source material in direct violation of tiers of canon, not to mention forum rules when such contradiction exists.

I'm sorry dude, it was not my intention to jump on you, but direct violation of established canon cannot be tollerated... Not for or against anyone. Not if things are supposed to run smoothly.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Right here. If Gouken's regen is useless, then why did you bother bringing it up?

He addressed that here:

Originally posted by No End N Site

4) I take back what I said (I just re-read the passage about Mu), Mu was activated instantly, but Gouken's spirit took several years to create a new body, it was a long process. It didn't take up until SFIV, but it took a while.

^Thank you.

I actually reposted that twice.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Are you kidding me? My entire line of questioning, (And thusly bringing up rules of canonicity) was in direct response to your first post.

Right here. If Gouken's regen is useless, then why did you bother bringing it up? Your entire defence of your position just crumbled... You based this off of a nonsensical peice found within a sourcebook that is directly contradictory in it's very statement to Gouken's own words in SFIV, and Gouki's own words in the same game.

You then want me to beleive that this supposed source of yours somehow [b]Supercedes the source material in direct violation of tiers of canon, not to mention forum rules when such contradiction exists.

I'm sorry dude, it was not my intention to jump on you, but direct violation of established canon cannot be tollerated... Not for or against anyone. Not if things are supposed to run smoothly. [/B]

You clearly have not read all my posts in this thread. Have fun🙂

Originally posted by No End N Site
^Thank you.

I actually reposted that twice.

❌

You clearly have not read all my posts in this thread. Have fun🙂

And yet, your still trying to defend the position despite that...

Just cuz it wont help doesn't make it less true. I defend the truth. I know Aku and Gou don't have that huge a chance in this thread, but I gotta make sure motha phuckaz know the facts 1st.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Just cuz it wont help doesn't make it less true. I defend the truth. I know Aku and Gou don't have that huge a chance in this thread, but I gotta make sure motha phuckaz know the facts 1st.

And I would encourage you to do this all the way. My only concern is the fact you've stated arnt nessisarily *Facts* just yet.

Matt Moylan doesn't supercede the source material with his oppinion I'm afraid.

I'm not arguing with you about this anymore. It's not his opinion. It's fact, I posted tons of evidence of this. It's time to move on.

So what is the current verdict on the match?

Originally posted by No End N Site
I'm not arguing with you about this anymore. It's not his opinion. It's fact, I posted tons of evidence of this. It's time to move on.

If it where fact, it wouldn't contradict source material. Sorry dude, but you can have all the evidence outside of the source material you like, but top tier source trumps any secondary tier, thats how it always has worked.

Concession accepted.

DS is cute when he gets going. 🙂

^ Isn't he? I just wanna pinch'im some time. lol

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
If it where fact, it wouldn't contradict source material. Sorry dude, but you can have all the evidence outside of the source material you like, but top tier source trumps any secondary tier, thats how it always has worked.

Concession accepted.

As long as 'you' think so, that's all that matters. Have a blessed week. 🙂

..........Zzzzzzzz.......

Sorry, you talking to me?

Capcom USA does not own the Street Fighter. It never has.

Gouken actually did not stop the SGS, he canceled it. SGS is unstoppable. But also, it cannot take any effect on Gouken as his Power of nothingness protects him from basically everything.

You cannot know Akuma's durability as it was never shown/told.

Gouken creating the new body? Show me the source of that, I am very interested.
It is notable that Gouken has awakened, not created a new body.