"Yoda's proficiency with Ataru on the other hand, no matter how great it may have once been, was almost certainly pretty low by RotS given his limited practise and experience with the weapon"
That's subjective, and as such, holds little water.
it's confirmed that Anoon Bondara was the greatest in that respect, at least early PT
Fallible opinion - from one of his students.
It is canon. We've been over this already. And yes, Mace's lightsaber appearing to Anakin as if it were dozens of blades aatcking from every angle works well too.
Except that in the movies, the highest form of canon, Anakin only got there after the fight was over. He had no chance to see Mace in action at all. Rendering the novelisation version non-canon.
I meant Bane's dozen attacks at once in ROT. O_O
"Non-canon."
Oh I didn't think he was referring to Anakin's observations, as they're described as moving as blurs by the ON before he arrives as well IIRC.
"Also, I don't think the watchers being sith change anything about the feat. Reaction speed can't speed up your sight, which I think relies totally on light to create an image. This is why characters fighting at lightspeed wouldn't make sense, you wouldn't be able to see shit. o_o
A better feat is his 'dozen attacks an instant' or whatever."
The image itself is reliant totally on light but the movement of the image becomes reliant on how your mind process time, i.e. your reaction speed, and how close it is to your visual field. The faster your reaction speed, the more easily your brain registers the rate at which the object crosses your visual field, so for the average human for example anything that takes less than about 5 seconds to cross your visual field starts to blur. The very reason people recognise blurs in different manners is because of differentiating reaction speeds.
And the second thing happens in RoT anyway...
Originally posted by NCRotCA
In reference to the top post of this page, there's nothing subjective about it Takai, and it was stated by the omniscient narrator in both Shadow Hunter and The Approaching Storm, the quote from Darsha Assant was from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook.
Really? That Yoda's skills w/ Ataru were were "pretty low" by RotS? Give me the direct quote.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Really? That Yoda's skills w/ Ataru were were "pretty low" by RotS? Give me the direct quote.
I said that it's likely given how out of practise with the weapon he was, that he was out of practise having already been sourced and it being likely founded upon probability and not opinion. A lack of regular practise of something that's heavily founded upon technique almost always leads to a lack of familairity with it, so the strong likelihood is that the same is the case with Yoda, unless his memory operates more effectively than the basic human memory which nothing suggests as being the case.
"I'm curious... What are you basing this notion than Bane is more powerful than Sid? You keep talking about Bane like it's established fact the he's more powerful.. So I'm looking for what you are basing this on. It's important because his fight with Bane is ALL you have in terms of Kas'im fighting somebody of significance. So, you seem to be building up Bane, in an effort to make Kas look better. Problem is, I feel Sid's is more powerful than Bane, and Yoda handles himself better than Kas did against Bane."
Well the fact remains that in the movies all that Yoda and Sidious are ever able to demonstrate are basic abilities like telekinesis and lightning on a relatively low scale, at times displaying real effort in doing so. The stuff they do outside of the movies around the same time period that aren't consistent with that showing of ability can for the most part be ignored as by their very nature, the further away you get from the movies, the more foggier the window into the fictional reality becomes, and anything that conflicts with what the movies depict can be considered to not be a true reflection of what actually takes place.
Bane on the other hand collapses a temple with the outer areas of a telekinetic Force Wave, fills a hall capable of housing hundreds of students with Force Lightning within an hour of having learnt the ability, and moves so fast that he becomes practically invisible to trained, powerful Force Users. A good notch beyond PT Yoda and Sid by any standard, and Kas'im performs exceptionally well against him.
"I'm not saying that Kas would shrivel up and die if faced with a combat situation. I'm not saying that in the least as he handled himself pretty good against Bane. What I am saying is narration about his skill based on how many forms he's mastered, how skilled he is with a saber, how good a teacher he is... can only go so far."
Sure, but in this case it goes pretty far.
"We need to see him in actual combat (life or death) situation against quality opponents to give credence to said narration. Narration alone doesn't cut it. In Yoda we have both narration and combat feats against quality opposition. Such quality in fact, that one could argue he faced the most powerful force user ever, and was winning or at the least stalemated him. That to me, is a better victory than the hollow one Kas had against Bane (he did well but in the end lost)."
Well look, perhaps if Sidious really was the most powerful Force User ever up until that point, I'd be more willing to agree with you but the fact remains that the combatants displayed in the movies don't come close to the upper end of Force Users that have appeared throughout its history.
"Now I'm not saying Kss isn't skilled with the saber... the problem is he doesn't have enough combat feats or victories against quality that Yoda does. We judge fights based on feats and narration. Yoda is clearly the victor based on the debating parameters on this site."
The only thing we lack about Kas'im is the quantity of feats (he was a supporting character in a single novel after all), something that really isn't needed, as he has the quality of narration and feats that easily place him as the victor in this engagement.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
I said that it's likely given how out of practise with the weapon he was, that he was out of practise having already been sourced and it being likely founded upon probability and not opinion. A lack of regular practise of something that's heavily founded upon technique almost always leads to a lack of familairity with it, so the strong likelihood is that the same is the case with Yoda, unless his memory operates more effectively than the basic human memory which nothing suggests as being the case.
Sorry, but this - "Yoda's proficiency with Ataru on the other hand, no matter how great it may have once been, was almost certainly pretty low by RotS given his limited practise and experience with the weapon" -is subjective, not objective, and as such, is opinion.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
Well taking into account that it took him less then ten years to master all seven forms, and then he went on to spend at least twenty years improving upon them, I would think so. I'd imagine once you reach master level you're pretty far into the form's arsenal of moves and sequences; that Kas'im spent more than double the amount of time it took for him to originally master them on perfecting them, would lead me to think that it was pretty high end.
I have to admit thats quite impressive.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
Well all styles have their own defencive moves and sequences and with enough speed and power you should be able to use the most conventional of moves to defend against someone else's attacks, and Yoda does seem like that kind of combatant, relying almost entirely on his Force ability in saber combat, i.e. his speed and agility.
Ah but it was the way he was defending.. He stood in one position, and kept perfectly balanced. I really dnt see how that could be anything but soresu. Certainly doesnt sound like an Ataru defence(standing in the same spot). And I doubt Ataru's defence without any attacks would be that effective against Makashi.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
I'd question how much of that raw power he had actually realised by that point, as well as how good a Djem So practitioner he was,
Well when giving into the darkside he badly and completely overpowered Count Dooku who was said to be One of the Most Powerful Jedi's in the whole history of the order, and an even More Powerful Sith Lord.
As for his Djem So, he was as fine a user as Dooku had ever seen. Considering Dooku was a former lightsaber instructor at the Temple, I think that says a lot. And considering Anakin matched Kenobi in duelling skill, that also says a lot. But thats for another debate really.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Sorry, but this - "Yoda's proficiency with Ataru on the other hand, no matter how great it may have once been, was almost certainly pretty low by RotS given his limited practise and experience with the weapon" -is subjective, not objective, and as such, is opinion.
Also, Sidious not touching his lightsaber for a loooong time didn't slow him down.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Neb, why aren't you using the Quote function?
It's damn annoying. It's a pain to read posts that way.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Sorry, but this - "Yoda's proficiency with Ataru on the other hand, no matter how great it may have once been, was almost certainly pretty low by RotS given his limited practise and experience with the weapon" -is subjective, not objective, and as such, is opinion.
Since when is probability a subjective process? I'm not going to claim that I applied the most elaborate statistical model to determine its probability, but probability down to its most exact process is very much an objective process. In this instant it's not really required to know that the most likely scenario is that someone who doesn't regularly practise their skills will lack familiarity with them, simply due to how memory works, and the fact that Yoda's not portrayed in a manner that would indicate his memory works in a fundamentally different way (neither are Force Users as a whole or any other member of Yoda's species).