Originally posted by FinalAnswer
B-But they're unable to access the death ray O:
Hmm, They must've been firing poptarts from the bridge to destroy the other ship then. dgrin
Originally posted by Nephthys
The NCR control an area the size of pretty much an entire state iirc. The CW Brotherhood control a single large building.My word this is a hard fight.
It would be more fair to have the whole Brotherhood vs the NCR probably.
Set 5 years post Broken Steel, I think the EC BOS control more than the Citadel, and with LWs help, probably most of the Capital Wasteland.... huhu
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which even if true, and I think you're just guessing, is still only a single city.
No it isn't...
It's DC, The surrounding towns, and a sizable part of former Washington State.
Then there is the Pitt, another potential city, and Maryland, another potential swath of land opened up because of the LW.
Space/size of conquered land isn't an issue. I have no doubt NCR is by far the bigger force, as they hold at least 3 major cities and are expanding on a fourth, and already has innumerable townships as well, BUT the technology edge is still with Lyons BOS, mostly due to more modernised captured Enclave tech, and Zeta. The tactical advantage of what basically amounts to a flying city is simply too great to overcome.
NCR can't reproduce Zeta tech, no one can, in five years time it will be all gone, and they certainly are not going to maintain Mothership Zeta (Nor are they shown to be capable of using it, so much speculation up in here). Nor are they shown using the Pitt, considering neither of the two potential leaders of it have shown any desire to join with the Brotherhood.
Really, the NCR's resources are concrete, set in stone.
The Brotherhood's are speculation.
Facts beat speculation 100% of the time.
Originally posted by NemeBro
NCR can't reproduce Zeta tech, no one can, in five years time it will be all gone, and they certainly are not going to maintain Mothership Zeta (Nor are they shown to be capable of using it, so much speculation up in here).
The first statement is irrelevant, given that Zeta has reproduction capability inside it's ship in the first place.
The 2nd is dictated by OP. 5 years of prep and the LW (Captain of Zeta, and Hero of Both the Pitt & Point Lookout) at their back means it's not as speculative as plucking pure crap out of thin air.
313_rage
Originally posted by NemeBro
Nor are they shown using the Pitt, considering neither of the two potential leaders of it have shown any desire to join with the Brotherhood.
As stated above Neme, LW provides the access, since either Ashur or Werner are both in debt to him.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Really, the NCR's resources are concrete, set in stone.The Brotherhood's are speculation.
Facts beat speculation 100% of the time.
Really? Then why where they so hard pressed by the Legion? Why was their recource management running like crap for 5 years? Why was annexing Vegas proving to be totally impossible for such an uber force?
Here is a fact for you. Both sides of this conflict had their shining knights show up out of thin air and solved ALL of their problems.
And fact: CWBOS Has production and resources thanks to Adams AFB irrespective, Adding the Pitt and Zeta means they have all the resources they need.
And I don't particularly care about your scemantics at the moment. Post Broken Steel by 5 years is pretty much entirely speculatory for both sides (As 1 to 2 years of prep is the cronological equivalent for New Vegas anyway).
jsmirk
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Hmm, They must've been firing poptarts from the bridge to destroy the other ship then. dgrin
They're locked out after the fight. O:
Naw, but really, even assuming that the Brotherhood could find out how to competently reproduce Zeta tech at a rate that would actually see results, which I sincerely doubt, Zeta tech is much more limited then Big MT tech, especially when the Think Tank is capable of still producing new tech, unlike Zeta. Undefeatable hologram armies, city-wide life-wiping clouds, teleportation devices, armies of robo-scorpions, cazadores, ect, along with the ablility to synthesize resources from cheap metal, gives the NCR an unbelievable edge. Big MT tech backed by the far superior resources of the NCR is more then capable of laying waste to The Capital Wasteland.
Especially when The Courier would beat the Lone Wanderer up. (:
And as for why The NCR had trouble with the Legion, the Legion also has vast resources, and even more soldiers, and the NCR had trouble with House due to unable to be willing to fight a war on two fronts in the Mojave. Despite this, they still trumped the Legion in the 1st Battle of Hoover Dam.
Yes yes, I am well aware that you have made the OP to slant the fight into the NCR's favor, I just don't care, and dismiss it.
As for the Legion? The Legion control all of Arizona and more. The NCR is also away where it is normally based, and their entire force is not brough to bear there. Then there is of course Mr. House exploiting their resources.
See, we know what happens if the NCR wins. They occupy New Vegas entirely, and no longer have House, the Legion, the Boomers, or the Brotherhood to worry about, their supply routes are safe, etc etc.
Then there is the fact that the NCR sort of, well you know, has beaten both the Brotherhood and the Enclave, doing the former without any real help from a savior.
The Brotherhood's advantages lie in technology and training per man. The NCR's lie in size, number of soldiers, resources, and most importantly of all, logistical superiority. The Brotherhood has at their most wanked the Pitt (Not much of an advantage, one single steel mill couldn't rival the production capabilities of solitary businesses like the Van Graffs or the Gun Runners, let alone the whole ****ing NCR, which does business with both). Mothership Zeta? Lolno man, there is like what? A single ****ing room able to be accessed now, the rest being locked? Wow damn that sure is an advantage, TRULY THE GIANT IMMOBILE HUNK OF METAL IN SPACE WILL PLAY A FACTOR. And if you try to argue or state that the Brotherhood can break through in five years, not through hacking or force. Hacking is just a case of the Brotherhood never being shown to be nearly as advanced as what that would take. As for force? We know that the space ships of the aliens can withstand many direct hits from weaponry that blows up areas the size of Texas, so that is so unlikely as to be impossible, considering the apparent high-grade nature of the materials the aliens use. Then there is of course the dinky ass space ships and even weaponry mostly surviving orbital re-entry, with most of the metal being intact.
Now, let's say I wank the NCR? Big MT, given by the Courier, gives them the ability to make virtually any resource from cheap metal, which alone is so logistically overpowered to be cheating, along with a bunch of other bullshit. Hell, why stop there? Why not say the Courier figures out how to use the Platinum Chip, giving the NCR a ****ing upgraded Securitron Army? Now they have a large army of soldiers that are in fact better than a Brotherhood Paladin one on one.
Damn man, speculation sure is fun!
Also... Why mention Maryland? What in Point Lookout would be useful to the Brotherhood? Unless you are suggesting they will make the mutated rednecks Brotherhood members. 😐
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
They're locked out after the fight. O:
Not the Bridge one. excellent
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Naw, but really, even assuming that the Brotherhood could find out how to competently reproduce Zeta tech at a rate that would actually see results, which I sincerely doubt, Zeta tech is much more limited then Big MT tech, especially when the Think Tank is capable of still producing new tech, unlike Zeta. Undefeatable hologram armies, city-wide life-wiping clouds, teleportation devices, armies of robo-scorpions, cazadores, ect, along with the ablility to synthesize resources from cheap metal, gives the NCR an unbelievable edge. Big MT tech backed by the far superior resources of the NCR is more then capable of laying waste to The Capital Wasteland.
alot of the tech in Zeta is more esoteric. The average weapon is a good 1.5 to 2 times more powerful than the equivelant earthly energy weapon.
Zeta has it's own teleportation tech as well, and the ability to "beam" objects from the surface to the cargo hold. Wait.... I smell a big Big MT steal grab of tech! duryes
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Especially when The Courier would beat the Lone Wanderer up. (:
That is an entirely debatable subject in and of itself. The sheer perk battery the LW posesses over the Courier is immense.
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
And as for why The NCR had trouble with the Legion, the Legion also has vast resources, and even more soldiers, and the NCR had trouble with House due to unable to be willing to fight a war on two fronts in the Mojave. Despite this, they still trumped the Legion in the 1st Battle of Hoover Dam.
The legion are also far more technologically regressed than the NCR or the Brotherhood... They have men, and they have resources, but their methodology is much more simplistic than that of the Brotherhood. It's not the same kind of matchup as what happened with the Mojave Brotherhood, the CWBOS are a whole different ballgame than even Lost Hills would be.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No it isn't...It's DC, The surrounding towns, and a sizable part of former Washington State.
Then there is the Pitt, another potential city, and Maryland, another potential swath of land opened up because of the LW.
Space/size of conquered land isn't an issue. I have no doubt NCR is by far the bigger force, as they hold at least 3 major cities and are expanding on a fourth, and already has innumerable townships as well, BUT the technology edge is still with Lyons BOS, mostly due to more modernised captured Enclave tech, and Zeta. The tactical advantage of what basically amounts to a flying city is simply too great to overcome.
Ok, then technically they might have rivet city, the citadel, megaton and Arefu. Megaton has about 20-30 inhabitants, Rivet city is a single aircraft carrier, so at best it has a hundred, much more likely far less and Arefu has 6 inhabitants. Capital wasteland is near uninhabited dude. And none of the above are real cities like Las Vagas is, thanks to House blocking all nuclear strikes on the actual city.
I don't believe they could have taken over either of those. The Eastern branch didn't expand in 20 years. I doubt they'd explode so much in just 5.
Technology gap isn't that vast considering FinalAnswers post. The NCR has Power Armor as well, so their troops aren't that outmatched either. With the massive resource and manpower advantage they still steamroll the Brotherhood.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Yes yes, I am well aware that you have made the OP to slant the fight into the NCR's favor, I just don't care, and dismiss it.
I made no such distinction, and I never slanted to any one side. When this was made, the majority of NV's DLCs where not yet made, but I did say it was post ALL DLC did I not? Well then you have nothing to complain about.
Oh, and if you DON'T like my thread, you can leave and not come back, mkay.
Originally posted by NemeBro
As for the Legion? The Legion control all of Arizona and more. The NCR is also away where it is normally based, and their entire force is not brough to bear there. Then there is of course Mr. House exploiting their resources.
Which doesn't detract from my point. Even post NV + it's DLCs by 2 years, would the NCR be able to mount a defence against the CWBOS?
Originally posted by NemeBro
See, we know what happens if the NCR wins. They occupy New Vegas entirely, and no longer have House, the Legion, the Boomers, or the Brotherhood to worry about, their supply routes are safe, etc etc.
They even made friends out of the Boomers, M BOS, Kings and a whole mess of other factions, sure, I'm aware of these facts. But that does not mean they will be ready. it would depend on wether or not they know the CWBOS are comming.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Then there is the fact that the NCR sort of, well you know, has beaten both the Brotherhood and the Enclave, doing the former without any real help from a savior.
And no other faction of the BOS has what Lyons has.
Originally posted by NemeBro
The Brotherhood's advantages lie in technology and training per man. The NCR's lie in size, number of soldiers, resources, and most importantly of all, logistical superiority. The Brotherhood has at their most wanked the Pitt (Not much of an advantage, one single steel mill couldn't rival the production capabilities of solitary businesses like the Van Graffs or the Gun Runners, let alone the whole ****ing NCR, which does business with both).
A Steel Mill that as per Ashur is a resource that is absolutely unique. They never found another fully working steel mill ever. There is nothing to state that the Van Graffes and the Gun Runners are not simply still using recycled salvage. Whereas we know the Pitt is unique, and Adams AFB had enough production facilities to equip the entire Enclave. Whitleys tapes are proof of this.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Mothership Zeta? Lolno man, there is like what? A single ****ing room able to be accessed now, the rest being locked? Wow damn that sure is an advantage, TRULY THE GIANT IMMOBILE HUNK OF METAL IN SPACE WILL PLAY A FACTOR.
Ok, first and foremost, thats pure game restruction.
2nd, it is only immobile because they don't understand the controls yet, and still kicked the tar out of an equally formidable enemy ship. In 5 years that can definitely change, especially with scribes working on it and arn't recource depleted.
Originally posted by NemeBro
And if you try to argue or state that the Brotherhood can break through in five years, not through hacking or force. Hacking is just a case of the Brotherhood never being shown to be nearly as advanced as what that would take. As for force? We know that the space ships of the aliens can withstand many direct hits from weaponry that blows up areas the size of Texas, so that is so unlikely as to be impossible, considering the apparent high-grade nature of the materials the aliens use. Then there is of course the dinky ass space ships and even weaponry mostly surviving orbital re-entry, with most of the metal being intact.
you are simply being scemantic. The doors becoming inaccesible is game restriction. The LW has a 2 way transportation device to the bridge.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Now, let's say I wank the NCR? Big MT, given by the Courier, gives them the ability to make virtually any resource from cheap metal, which alone is so logistically overpowered to be cheating, along with a bunch of other bullshit. Hell, why stop there? Why not say the Courier figures out how to use the Platinum Chip, giving the NCR a ****ing upgraded Securitron Army? Now they have a large army of soldiers that are in fact better than a Brotherhood Paladin one on one.
I have no problems with this.
But since the Securitron army is infact very small, and it's equivelant firepower compared to a composite Paladin with Zeta weapons and Enclave Armor is still pretty heavily in the Paladin's favour.
Question - Would the NCR allow support from the Securitrons over a long term basis though?
Originally posted by NemeBro
Damn man, speculation sure is fun!
It's not entirely speculation if it can be explained logically as a reasonable conclusion after 2 years of prep.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Also... Why mention Maryland? What in Point Lookout would be useful to the Brotherhood? Unless you are suggesting they will make the mutated rednecks Brotherhood members. 😐
I never said that, I never even suggested it.
However, the tech beneath the lighthouse would be worth a look.
Take your time.
Found this:
Population: Though a census has been conducted, we do not have access to the figures. NCR is believed to have many tens of thousands of people.
- Vault City travel log.
And this was as of Fallout 2, nearly 100 years before New Vagas. 😐
Edit: And this:
How big is NCR?
Founded eighty years ago, the NCR is now comprised of the states of Shady, Los Angeles, Maxson, Hub, and Dayglow. Approximately 700,000 citizens are pleased to call NCR home.
- NCR History Disk. Also in Fallout 2.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok, then technically they might have rivet city, the citadel, megaton and Arefu. Megaton has about 20-30 inhabitants, Rivet city is a single aircraft carrier, so at best it has a hundred, much more likely far less and Arefu has 6 inhabitants. Capital wasteland is near uninhabited dude. And none of the above are real cities like Las Vagas is, thanks to House blocking all nuclear strikes on the actual city.
Lets see... The 4 you mention plus, Lets say Canterbury Commons and it's caravans, Big Town, Little lamplight (this one is a bit of a stretch...) Republic Of Dave, Tenpenny Tower, Temple Of the Union/Lincholn Monument, Girdirshade, Underworld, Paradise Falls (Thats a big stretch). Playing the cards right, or even if one eradicates a population (Such as with Paradise Falls) That can still be reused and re-fortified. Now, since Lyons conscripts, and since P Purity is such a big drawcard, the population pool is going to be much larger than what the initial game would suggest. Rumors will spread out from the capital and attract populations from the wider areas as well, the search for clean drinking water on the East Coast in it's entirety is a much more challenging affair considering how much harder it was hit by the bombs.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't believe they could have taken over either of those. The Eastern branch didn't expand in 20 years. I doubt they'd explode so much in just 5.
Not take over, draw from. They already have a rapport with most settlements already, and make regular deliveries even to Evergreen mills, a large Raider compound. the major thing is that the Muties have receded, and the Enclave are now gone, they have a firm foothold, they control the biggest drawcard since the GECK with Project Purity, and they are no longer being bled white by the constant fighting with Mutants.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Technology gap isn't that vast considering FinalAnswers post. The NCR has Power Armor as well, so their troops aren't that outmatched either. With the massive resource and manpower advantage they still steamroll the Brotherhood.
The NCR has salvaged unpowered T-45b power armor... They are outmatched by far man to man.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Logistically the Legion are superior to the Brotherhood and arguably even the NCR.
Logistics and strategy/tactics are onl a part of successful battlefield operations.
Originally posted by NemeBro
"Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics."
Bullocks. tactics and strategy are as important as firepower and logistics. NCR proved it's frontier logistics ran like well used toilet paper for 5 years straight, even after a substantial victory at the 1st battle of Hoover Dam. That is an example of poor strategy. The tactics where flawless, but broader strategy dictated they should have pressed hard after the Legion was in retreat. They didn't, and it bit them in the arse hard later.
Originally posted by NemeBro
No one ****s with the supply routes of the Legion, which is why so many caravans sign up with them.
That is within their own boarders though, it's entirely different when your on a frontier.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah the Legion is scary. Luckily they have no real future once Caesar dies. The only question is how much he takes with him.
Almost all of it. Only the fear of Lanius keeps those near him in line.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Edit: Also the NCR has access to the technology in Vault City, nothing to sneeze at.
Thats wierd, since the LW has access to about 5 Vaults, and the Vault-Tec HQ...
Originally posted by Nephthys
Population: Though a census has been conducted, we do not have access to the figures. NCR is believed to have many tens of thousands of people.- Vault City travel log.
And this was as of Fallout 2, nearly 100 years before New Vagas. 😐
Edit: And this:
How big is NCR?
Founded eighty years ago, the NCR is now comprised of the states of Shady, Los Angeles, Maxson, Hub, and Dayglow. Approximately 700,000 citizens are pleased to call NCR home.- NCR History Disk. Also in Fallout 2.
So.... our saying that they are going to bring the entire NCR Population down to the Mojave to fight off the CWBOS? That they are all going to get Veteran Ranger training? or the shitty 2 week trooper training and shitty gear?
Because I garuntee Gunney's training outdoes Vet Ranger training by a few notches.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Lets see... The 4 you mention plus, Lets say Canterbury Commons and it's caravans,
6 people.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Big Town,
10 people
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Little lamplight (this one is a bit of a stretch...)
I think not.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Republic Of Dave,
9 people.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Tenpenny Tower,
You mean the old, rich assholes who never want to leave their tower? Yes, clearly they can be recruited.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Temple Of the Union/Lincholn Monument,
6 people.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Girdirshade,
😐
2 people.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Underworld,
I'll give you that one. Though iirc the Brotherhood doesnn't recruit ghouls. Still only 20ish people.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Paradise Falls (Thats a big stretch).
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Playing the cards right, or even if one eradicates a population (Such as with Paradise Falls) That can still be reused and re-fortified. Now, since Lyons conscripts, and since P Purity is such a big drawcard, the population pool is going to be much larger than what the initial game would suggest. Rumors will spread out from the capital and attract populations from the wider areas as well, the search for clean drinking water on the East Coast in it's entirety is a much more challenging affair considering how much harder it was hit by the bombs.
The fortifications are irrelevent since your OP said that it was the Brotherhood attacking. Big deal, Hoover Dam purifies water as well. Either that or by New Vagas Project Purity has somehow purified all of America. And I think it would be disarsterous for them to get a flood of volunteers anyway since Capital Wasteland is near barren and they have no way of producing food other than raiding supermarkets. They lack the farms the NCR has. The Brotherhood just can't sustain much of an army. Not even mentioning that I doubt they have 50+ sets of extra Power Armor.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Not take over, draw from. They already have a rapport with most settlements already, and make regular deliveries even to Evergreen mills, a large Raider compound. the major thing is that the Muties have receded, and the Enclave are now gone, they have a firm foothold, they control the biggest drawcard since the GECK with Project Purity, and they are no longer being bled white by the constant fighting with Mutants.
Why aren't they fighting mutants anymore? And you're absolutely right they'll 'draw' from those places. Their recruitment rating won't be that high. If the Capital Wasteland is really as safe as you make it sound, why bother joining the Brotherhood?
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
The NCR has salvaged unpowered T-45b power armor... They are outmatched by far man to man.
No, thats only what we see in the game in Vagas. In the motherland they have actual Power Armor. Vault City has access to alot of Pre-War tech, Power Armor included.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
So.... our saying that they are going to bring the entire NCR Population down to the Mojave to fight off the CWBOS? That they are all going to get Veteran Ranger training? or the shitty 2 week trooper training and shitty gear?Because I garuntee Gunney's training outdoes Vet Ranger training by a few notches.
You made the thread the NCR vs the ECBOS, don't blame me if you didn't think about how massive the NCR really is. If they deploy even 1% of the numbers they had 100 years ago they'll still outnumber the Brotherhood by well over 50-1. And LOL! Its directly stated in the game that Lyons recruits have a shockingly bad survival rating.
Also bullshit on Gunneys training being superior to Vetern Ranger training. Vet Rangers are the best of the best, anfd more than a match for a Brotherhood member in Power Armor.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Not the Bridge one. excellentalot of the tech in Zeta is more esoteric. The average weapon is a good 1.5 to 2 times more powerful than the equivelant earthly energy weapon.
Zeta has it's own teleportation tech as well, and the ability to "beam" objects from the surface to the cargo hold. Wait.... I smell a big Big MT steal grab of tech! duryes
That is an entirely debatable subject in and of itself. The sheer perk battery the LW posesses over the Courier is immense.
The legion are also far more technologically regressed than the NCR or the Brotherhood... They have men, and they have resources, but their methodology is much more simplistic than that of the Brotherhood. It's not the same kind of matchup as what happened with the Mojave Brotherhood, the CWBOS are a whole different ballgame than even Lost Hills would be.
iirc, the deathray ceased working once you blew up the other mothership.
Given that it was constructed with tech at Big MT, holorifles could likely be mass produced with the matter manipulation tech and the NCR's resources, and I don't think I need to tell you the holorifle is superior to all the Zeta weaponry save the alien blaster.
Well, considering that most of the labs and such are either located underground or in fortified buildings, and that they would have to find Big MT first, I sincerely doubt that's a plausible strategy.
Not really. Though the Lone Wanderer can get 5 more perks then the Courier, the Courier has better stats, and generally much better equipment. Plus, considering the ending of The Lonesome Road, which is by far and away a more hostile environment then anything in Fallout 3, I think it just goes to show just how much of a BAMF The Courier is.
Their soldiers are also noticeably super human, and make great use of fear/ psychological warfare tactics, sabotage, lack of morality, and such evens out the NCR's superior tech.