Captain America and Bucky vs Sabretooth

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I understand he has fantastic skill with throwing which goes more to me saying it was more of an ability, because it surely isn't strength based if he's doing that. It would be PIS if it was.

He throws shit hard. Has less to do with 'throwing skills' than it does to do with him being awesomely strong.

Bucky, a real peak human, needs cybernetic arms to match Cap in strength.

Cap is definitely superhuman. And not really in a struggling sense either.

Fury's jaw was on the floor when he saw Cap throw his shield at that ICBM.

Aw man I bet jinzin writing some longarse reply. I'm gonna be like God damn! 😱

You know those situations when you think you're in for a regular debate then you see the other posters reply...aarggghhh!!!

Originally posted by Deadline
Aw man I bet jinzin writing some longarse reply. I'm gonna be like God damn! 😱

You know those situations when you think you're in for a regular debate then you see the other posters reply...aarggghhh!!!

Jinzin is a beast. He laughs at word counts most of us would find absolutely daunting. Be afraid.

correct me if im wrong but doesnt bucky have the original shield and steve have an energy one?

^ This is true.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
correct me if im wrong but doesnt bucky have the original shield and steve have an energy one?

thx hun jus checkin 😉

*pokes head in thread*

No nothing yet..... 🥷

Throwing things really far relies on trajectory, skill, and strength. I'm just saying if he's throwing a 12lb shield at "massively hypersonic" speeds by strength alone it's PIS. Pretty simple.

Originally posted by Deadline
Only in terms of strength and durability slightly, not agility and speed.

Well first of all Spiderman has superhuman speed and reflexes but according to your logic he's no longer superhuman due to the fact 'any character' can do it. So when Cap dodges bullets and lasers he's not superhuman but Spiderman is?

There are also alot of characters that can't do what Cap does, he's explicitly stated that he's weaker without the SSS and there are alot of street level characters that are below Cap in strength. I also think his stamina has been shown to be superior to other superhumans.

Also your argument doesnt make any sense. You're saying Cap isn't superhuman but can do superhuman feats. The problem is that you can apply that to other street level characters that are officially superhuman. Low superhumans resemble human beings to a certain degree, obvoulsy they are more powerful but have human like weaknesses like they can get killed by bullets, thats why they're low superhuman. Just because a load of their feats are relatively unimpressive doesn't mean that they're not superhuman.

Yea and would say that Cap and other low superhumans aren't quite as fast as Spiderman but that doesn't mean they're not low superhuman, thats like arguing that Hercules isn't class 100 because he's weaker than the Hulk.

Throwing in a bunch of generic comic feats would make everyone superhuman, which is exactly my point.

Originally posted by Deadline
There is no difference. Hitting bricks is also about the limitations of the body they shouldn't even feel anything, obvoulsy something happens to their body thats why they end up getting stunned or Koed.

You also argued that Wolverine shouldn't be able to get shot in the brain because his eye sockets don't have big enough holes, thats about the limitations of the body.

There IS a CONSIDERABLE difference.

Okay, what I'm getting from you is that you think
"Wolverine can take brick punishment; it happens in comics"
AND
"Cap can hurt bricks with his fists it happens in comics"
...are analogous arugments.

They ARE. NOT. I'll explain why.

Wolverine tanking brick shots is an attribute granted to him by a combination of his healing factor, Adamantium bones, and superhuman body.
His healing factor is fully capible of repairing mortal wounds near instantly, sometimes the damage is repaired as soon as it is made, as when he's healed behind sword cuts before the slash was finished, behind bullet wounds etc. It's been described that Wolverine's organs are turned to jelly by one Hulk punch but he's healed by the time Hulk's about to land another. That's ****in FAST.

Now I think what you're getting at is that you somehow think Wolverine's supposed to... I dunno... explode (?) when he gets hit by Hulk? The problem with that notion is that it has no real basis. People get squashed by collapsing towers and hundreds of tons of debris, it doesn't cause them to explode. The elasticity of the skin is pretty impressive as any double jointed person can show you. Even if the body is utterly broken on the inside the skin can hold a person together like a rubber encasing. The typical reason why that rubber skin begins to shred and fall apart in accidents is due to reasons inclusive of burns, cuts, etc.. not blunt force alone... Thing is...
All the supposition you can give me about why you think Wolverine shouldn't be able to tank punches is entirely based around theory with no grounds to full support it because once again Wolverine is SUPERHUMAN. Even without his Adamantium his body is superhuman, his bones are superhuman. Very comparible to Steve Rogers and his own superhuman durability.
Your theory based physics have no place here ESPECIALLY when they're being implied on fictional physiology.....
"It's a comic book" is something that allows our suspension of disbelief to take over for the sake of the story but it really has no place in the issue you and I are discussing because...
HERE'S THE REAL PROBLEM:>>>>>>>>>>

When Wolverine gets hit by a brick and tanks it, it's just something that Wolverine does. It's an attribute he's had since the beginning of the career and it has NO barring on the character who is fighting him. No one watches Hulk lay into Wolverine unable to easily KO him and concludes that Hulk then must be a weakling. Wolverine taking Hulk punches isn't contrary to either of the character's consistent histories on paper. You don't have to ignore Wolverine or Hulk's career in order to look at that AND be comfortable.

When Steve Rogers hurts a class 100 (rarely one with a healing factor) with class 100 durability, it's something that Rogers has done plenty of in his career, he's not made a career OF it by any means but he's done it a number of times. HOWEVER, when he does it, it DOES have a barring effect on the character he's doing it to. When you watch Rogers do that you not only have to believe that he's capable of hurting someone who is has a durability level>>>>>> outside of his (Steve's) typical level of stopping power but you ALSO have to ignore all the times the character he's hitting as proven their own durability levels to be >>>>>>>> His typical stopping power. You basically have to ignore everytime they've been hit by another brick or a bomb, etc etc..
You have to ignore both character's careers in order to take the "feat" with any degree of serious thought.

And really.... The only way you can make sense of that type of feat with respect to both characters is by then insisting on your own conjecture as gospel truth.

"Oh well.. he did that because of his skill"
That's a nonsensical argument and there's a number of reasons why.
1.) Steve Rogers as well as many people of his approximate level of skill still do NOT have the ability to hurt bricks in many of their fights (As when Cap first fought Wrecker with bare fists or when Daredevil tried to confront Hulk 1on1 for the first time).
2.)Brick level durability is a plot point that gets semi-consistently mentioned when they begin fighting skilled fighters. Having a "skill level that surpasses that durability" however is not, which brings the whole notion suspect to begin with.
3.)A punch is a punch, you can perfect the effect of a punch only so much without having to resort to outside factors like mass chi amplification ala Iron Fist.
4.) Again, his skill being the reason for hurting bricks with a fist is a notion we the fans came up with on the boards to try to make sense out of nonsense. It isn't a plot point that's been brought up in comics with the exception of the infamous "pressure point".....

Now.... as far as the pressure point issue is concerned; I feel much more comfortable lending credence to pressure points being effective against bricks when it's mentioned, however, I would DEFINITELY hesitate to say that it's comfortable enough to use in the forums because... well because of a number of reasons.

5.) Sabretooth's fight with Warbird showed that superhuman durability CAN nullify the effect of a nerve based tactic.
6.) In Steve's case in particular you once again have to ignore careers in order to support his feats..

Let's look at the professor Hulk example:
Professor Hulk was birthed after Grey Hulk and was one of the strongest Hulk incarnations to date and was definitely the fastest healer. His durability was also noteably better than most Hulk incarnations as well as his pain tolerance.

Professor Hulk had a healing factor and pain tolerance level that worked so well that he was eradicated to nearly nothing but a smoldering skeleton while fighting the UFOES and still walked through this blast to one shot Vector ( and I think Ironclad) on the other side.

His durability level: He was one of the last versions of Hulk to prove some resistance to Wolverine's claws (Wolverine could only manage very limited topical damage to him with cuts and slashes) and he was actually able to resist the teeth of robotic Adamantium made hounds. They didn't even pierce his skin.

With this combination of healing, pain tolerance/neglect, and uber durability, pressure point attack from Captain America SHOULD (going by comic book representations of both characters) do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

But because it happened in a comic you feel comfortable arguing that it's okay?

That's an issue Deadline. If you learned anything about the phantom bone Wolverine discussions it's that "just because something happens in a comic doesn't make it okay," or "just because it happens doesn't mean it's not PIS". And that has nothing to do with real world anything it just has to do with IN-616 contradictions.

Originally posted by jinzin
If you learned anything about the phantom bone Wolverine discussions it's that "just because something happens in a comic doesn't make it okay," or "just because it happens doesn't mean it's not PIS".

Mystique stabbed Hellverine in the eye with her bone claw and it went all the way through. Sticked out of his head.

It happens more and more often...

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Mystique stabbed Hellverine in the eye with her bone claw and it went all the way through. Sticked out of his head.

It happens more and more often...

Originally posted by Starscream M
so logan's skull is penetrable?

Either it is or writers don't know shit about anatomy.

Originally posted by Deadline
His history shows he can.

You didn't understand this the first time so I'll help you along.
Just because he's done it doesn't make it okay to use in a forum argument.
Spiderman's potentially braced and/or lifted 100 tons, it doesn't make him a class 100.

His history shows he can? What about who he did it to? What about their THEIR history? Should we just ignore that so we can be patriots in Steve's corner?

Again, Proff Hulk's history shows he can brush off the attack of a class 100 throwing bombs at his face, his history shows that his healing factors at or above the level of Wolverine's, his history shows he can tank catostrophic damage without being remotely hindered by it in battle. But you had no problems brushing that aside... 😐

Originally posted by Deadline
His HF is always weakened. Hes never been KOed without having a weakned HF. You're always right.

This has nothing to do with anything.
You want to argue with me? That's fine I don't care.. but at the least explain your reasoning, provide proof to the contrary or quitchyerbitchin.

As Srank said, it's you that brings up skewed examples in an attempt to downplay what it takes to bring Logan down and when he, I or any other member decides to take it upon ourselves to clue you in on the context you cry about the context you originally opted to ignore.. If you don't want to be corrected about your examples don't misrepresent the examples you choose to use in the first place.. it really is that simple.

Originally posted by Deadline
Yea he does.

Originally posted by Deadline
Uh yeah like you said its part of my reasoning, he can take out tougher guys AND theres two of them.

Originally posted by Deadline
You might want to read the fight again. He only fought both of them breifly for one second then got dropped to his knees by a knee from Cap.

Meh it doesn't matter, the point was that "Well there's two of em" ALSO isn't a fantastic reason to give these Capseses the win.. You may as well be talking about victims.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Either it is or writers don't know shit about anatomy.

Originally posted by Deadline
His history shows he can.

You didn't understand this the first time so I'll help you along.
Just because he's done it doesn't make it okay to use in a forum argument.
Spiderman's potentially braced and/or lifted 100 tons, it doesn't make him a class 100.

His history shows he can? What about who he did it to? What about their THEIR history? Should we just ignore that so we can be patriots in Steve's corner?

Again, Proff Hulk's history shows he can brush off the attack of a class 100 throwing bombs at his face, his history shows that his healing factors at or above the level of Wolverine's, his history shows he can tank catostrophic damage without being remotely hindered by it in battle. But you had no problems brushing that aside... 😐

Originally posted by Deadline
His HF is always weakened. Hes never been KOed without having a weakned HF. You're always right.

This has nothing to do with anything.
You want to argue with me? That's fine I don't care.. but at the least explain your reasoning, provide proof to the contrary or quitchyerbitchin.

As Srank said, it's you that brings up skewed examples in an attempt to downplay what it takes to bring Logan down and when he, I or any other member decides to take it upon ourselves to clue you in on the context you cry about the context you originally opted to ignore.. If you don't want to be corrected about your examples don't misrepresent the examples you choose to use in the first place.. it really is that simple.

Originally posted by Deadline
Yea he does.

Originally posted by Deadline
Uh yeah like you said its part of my reasoning, he can take out tougher guys AND theres two of them.

Originally posted by Deadline
You might want to read the fight again. He only fought both of them breifly for one second then got dropped to his knees by a knee from Cap.

Meh it doesn't matter, the point was that "Well there's two of em" ALSO isn't a fantastic reason to give these Capseses the win.. You may as well be talking about victims.

Originally posted by Deadline
If you can prove hes much superior to Wolverine then I could Sabes the majority. Thats whats stopping me from making my mind I'm not sure if Sabes is really that much better than Wolverine.

What do you need?

You see, this is the part I REALLY didn't want to get into because frankly it's something I didn't think needed to be addressed. Besides that, what you're beckoning me to do here is basically repost the major bullet points of the Sabretooth Respect thread which is actually a career thread and touches upon Sabretooth being superior to Wolverine multiple times.

The fact that you're asking me to prove that Sabretooth lives up to the entire CONCEPT of what Sabretooth is supposed to be gives me massive pause to think it even worth my while to post this shit... but here goes.

Early ass encounter between the two: Wolverine notes that Sabretooth was a better man than him, that Creed made him afraid, and that he was both faster, and harder hitting than himself:
http://s662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/?action=view&current=sabeswolves1stfight6.jpg

Wolverine also gives props to tooth calling him the consumate master when it came to teaching Wolverine about fear/pain/humilation/being beaten:
http://s662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/?action=view&current=sabeswolves1stfight7.jpg

Wolverine thinks their first fight was only a result of him being young and stupid, Sabretooth's quick to show him different:
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/th_XM_-_S_001_018.jpg
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/th_XM_-_S_001_019.jpg

Even when Logan tries to blindside Creed he gets smacked away all the while Creed mentions how he's saved Logan's ass in previous X missions:
http://s662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/?action=view&current=specialopsthrashing.jpg

The end of another Sabretooth ass whipping, Wolverine notes that Sabretooth does this every year:
http://s662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/?action=view&current=WFC_2_DCP_028.jpg

Sabretooth's toying with Logan in the street able to swipe a match out and vanish before Logan has the chance to turn around:
http://s662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/?action=view&current=stalkslogan.jpg

Sabretooth asserts he's once again faster and stronger than Logan:
http://s662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/?action=view&current=tunnelblitze4.jpg

Sabretooth proves it:
http://s662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/?action=view&current=frstwolviefight.jpg

Sabretooth easily asserts advantage again:
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/th_sabestakeslogan.jpg

Cerebro projects Wolverine's thoughts into holgraphic form, Sabretooth beating him down is at the top of his mind:
http://s662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/?action=view&current=wolverinethinks2.jpg

ALL OF THAT was before Sabretooth's FIRST UPGRADE:
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/th_Sabertooth1pg23.jpg

After which he goes through physiological changes to become more powerful:

http://s662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/?action=view&current=X-Force48p23.jpg

Sabretooth insists that Logan's an imitation of him:
http://s662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/?action=view&current=sabretooth_redzone_p41.jpg

Sabretooth recieves another upgrade: BONE CLAW Wolverine notes how Sabretooth (With adamantium) heals faster than he does:
http://s662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/?action=view&current=rollxthepunches2.jpg

In that same fight, Wolverine thinks he's having a striaght brawl, Sabretooth is not only toying with Logan, but he's dictating where he wants Wolverine to even hit him during the pace of the "fight"
http://s662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/?action=view&current=rollxthepunches5.jpg

Narrative states Wolverine was always a studder step behind Sabretooth since the very beginning(obviously pre-upgraded).
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/wolverinealmost.jpg

*After ANOTHER upgrade: Wolverine states multiple advantages that Sabretooth has been compounded with since their last encounters:
http://s662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/?action=view&current=wasteswolverine3.jpg
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/wasteswolverine4.jpg

Sabretooth definitively proved that what he does with Logan is no more to him than playtime.. it EXTREMELY undersells any of Wolverine's performances against Creed.
http://s662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/?action=view&current=XM_-_S_001_029.jpg
http://s662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/?action=view&current=XM_-_S_001_030.jpg

Which is furthermore compounded by the fact that the only time out of two times that Creed's really let loose the simple action unleashing Creed's animal to it's full extent... Wolverine had this to say:

http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/th_blz14.jpg
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/th_blz15.jpg

Psylocke has also had 2 cents on the subject: (note that isn't actually Sabretooth)
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu345/jinzin2008/sabesimage.jpg

Yeah... Sabretooth is Wolverine's superior...

There's even Sabretooth backstory articles claiming that Sabretooth had beaten Wolverine every time they met up til the X-men

The fact that Sabretooth beat an upgrade of a Shiva droid that had adapted to nearly fight Wolverine to a standstill and did it in a few panels.

Or the fact that Sabretooth was Professor X's first choice for the X-men.. not Wolverine...

He's Wolverine's superior... as I said... it was the WHOLE....CONCEPT of his characterization. 😬

Originally posted by Deadline
and the panels?

You think this game of cat and mouse is helping your case?
The fact is that Creed got shot from the stratosphere and hit earth like a meteor crushing his body in the process and was up before a couple of guys could finish 3 sentences... Not only was he up but he was able enough to go around killing multiple armed guards and THEN went up against 3 symbiote-like supers who had completely tooled Rogue earlier that arc.
On top of all this... ( And I know you're gonna love this part) Sabretooth in the previous arc was stated to be "recovering" as his healing factor was stated to be at something like 2% profeciency.

Now you tell me WHAT exactly you think Rogers brings to the game that's going to overcome a guy who functions like that?

Originally posted by Deadline
I already have but:
Every example of Cap stunning and Koing bricks is PIS.

Originally posted by Deadline
Every example of Wolverine getting Koed has circumstances.

Originally posted by Deadline
So basically I can't win because you pick and choose what PIS is. If I was arguing like you I would say that Wolverine taking class 100 shots is PIS. Oh and Wolverine getting shot in the brain with bullets is PIS. I'm so biased.

Originally posted by Deadline
No I'm not remember the Blade thread? I said as long as on panel evidence doesn't contradict the writers intention. Even then I said that you can use it but I think you need to supplement it with a bit more.

They obvoulsy haven't had alot of team ups have they? It's not like shes Wolverine or Bucky who have known Cap for years and have a close relationship. Shes seen Cap in action but does seeing Cap in action enable you to make a detailed analysis of his fighting style? Is she Taskmaster or Batgirl?

All of that effort is likely to be countered by one sentence. But I do agree with much of it. Spider-Man doing cl100 feats in great duress doesn't make him a *casual* 100 tonner. Same thing with many of these feats here.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I think the only thing we learned was that even when it happens so many times on-panel, some people just can't get over it.

Or maybe it proved some people's inability to determine what PIS actually is.. hmmm just sayin.