In terms of pure skill, I honestly believe both universes are about equal. The only thing is that while DC tends to state "these are humans" and yet have them do stuff humans can't really do (and not just Batman), Marvel blatantly gives its "streets" powers or abilites that put them above and give them that advantage. it doesn't make them unbeatable, but it can make the difference, imo.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Yep, I already said Marvel has DC beat in super soldier types. But not necessarily in hth, martial arts SKILL. If you include ALL the 5 or so KK's, DC has it beat. But overall, it's pretty even.
None of the Karate Kids even exist in regular DC canon, they are as valid to this discussion as Batman 1 Million. On the other hand all of Marvel's fighters exist in normal canon. Marvel has Mandarin. Temugin. The Immortal Weapons. Ogun. Stick. Izo. Po. Drake. The Foreigner. Gorgon. X. Honestly It isn't even a contest. Marvel'st MA's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> DC
Originally posted by Marvelknight
Jinzin, the problem is that Bronze Tiger's fight with Slade does prove something. It proves how formidable Bronze Tiger is. How and why you can't see that, I can't fathom.You seem to not take into consideration that Slade is a meta-human.
Comic books are like story broads for movie scripts. You can "SEE" the action without dialog or the pictures moving, and still get an understanding of what's going on.
If you know that Slade is a "meta-human" i.e. having far greater strength, endurance, durability, speed, and reaction time than a normal human, peak or not.
And the "FACT" that Slade "IS" indeed a master marital artist in his own right.
Why can't you "SEE" that Tiger with his stats is a very impressive feat fighting against Slade in and of its self? And 'PROF' that Bronze Tiger brings enough in skill, will, and determination to beat Steve 6/10? I can tell you now that looking at that fight with Slade and Tiger, Ben didn't seem like it weren’t probable for him to bring in Slade without with Deadshot there.
And the reason Slade isn't as good as the likes of Steve, Batman, or Bronze Tiger in "martial arts", is because he hasn't "learned" nearly as much as they have. But what Slade has mastered, he's very efficient in. He shows his fighting prowess all the time, and it's part of the reason why he's so dangerous against threats even greater then him and in numbers at a time.
Hell, I'll say that even Batman has a list of feats (like Steve) that are in my opinion, more impressive than Bronze Tiger's feats. But doesn't that tell you just how skilled Bronze Tiger is, considering that Slade couldn't overwhelm Bronze Tiger with his own considerable fighting skills and superior stats, the way he did against Bruce and others?
It shows that BT is formidable.
...
Against a beat up, non-invested Slade who's been blindsided.
What it doesn't show is that he's formidable enough to beat a 100% Deathstroke who is out for blood...
Don't believe me? Go make THAT bait-thread using that fight as the pillar of your argument and see what happens. 😐
Say what you will about the rest, it DEFINITELY DOES NOT imply that he's good enough to take Steve 6/10... that's ABSURD!
It's EXTREMELY arguable that Steve could beat a 100% Slade packing full gear, it's likely that he could beat Deathstroke in a strict h2h matchup, and it shouldn't be even remotely up for debate that Cap could take down Slade in the same situation BT got his momentary advantage, and Steve would probably do it faster, cleaner, and much more descisively.
How you think that's definite proof of unquestionable superiority is entirely beyond me. It's beyond ludicrous. I'm honestly baffled by the sheer notion of such ridiculousness.
Slade's a good fighter, but he's nowhere near top tier. Cap is.
You can't sit there and take a worse off fighter, in worse off condition, in a worse off situation and tell me that's proof of a 6/10 to BT against a 100% Cap out for the win who knows he's in a fight from the get go.
I don't see the problem people are having understanding the BT / DS fight, he wasn't going to let BT take him in, or stand there and be a punching bag... but that doesn't mean he was trying to put Ben down it was anywhere near an accurate indication of how a fight would play out. It's like a fight with a little brother, you have nothing to prove, you don't want to serious hurt them, but at the same time you aren't going to let any punches go unanswered, and you know you could end the fight in a heart beat if you were so inclined. Slade was fighting to avoid capture, not to put BT down, that is an important distinction.
Originally posted by jinzin
It shows that BT is formidable.
...
Against a beat up, non-invested Slade who's been blindsided.
What it doesn't show is that he's formidable enough to beat a 100% Deathstroke who is out for blood...Don't believe me? Go make THAT bait-thread using that fight as the pillar of your argument and see what happens. 😐
Say what you will about the rest, it DEFINITELY DOES NOT imply that he's good enough to take Steve 6/10... that's ABSURD!
It's EXTREMELY arguable that Steve could beat a 100% Slade packing full gear, it's likely that he could beat Deathstroke in a strict h2h matchup, and it shouldn't be even remotely up for debate that Cap could take down Slade in the same situation BT got his momentary advantage, and Steve would probably do it faster, cleaner, and much more descisively.
How you think that's definite proof of unquestionable superiority is entirely beyond me. It's beyond ludicrous. I'm honestly baffled by the sheer notion of such ridiculousness.
Slade's a good fighter, but he's nowhere near top tier. Cap is.
You can't sit there and take a worse off fighter, in worse off condition, in a worse off situation and tell me that's proof of a 6/10 to BT against a 100% Cap out for the win who knows he's in a fight from the get go.
Yes I can. Because once again you're trying to see that fight in a way where it's doesn't give any credit to Bronze Tiger. And you don't "SEE" what's really happening. Slade made it clear that in no way was he going to allow Tiger to take him in.
And Slade wasn't that hurt as you make it out to be neither. Did you forget that Slade has an accelerated healing factor?
Also Slade hit Tiger with some very hard hit's and Tiger didn't buckle.
Tiger took an elbow to the face (elbow's are one of the hardest bones that humans have). And two hard punches followed immediately after (left and a right). But somehow you think Steve's just gonna easily knock Tiger out? Wrong.
And did you ever take into consideration that Steve's gonna get hit too, or did you think Bronze Tiger is gonna tire himself out by punching at Steve's after image the entire time?
And then you say Slade just a "good" fighter? Again with these unfounded underestimations of Slade's fighting prowess. You're wrong there. Slade is a highly skilled fighter. Anyone who truly knows Slade will tell you this. And it's statements like this, that make me question your creditability.
How can you say someone who displays tactical fighting skills 100% of the time against multiple combatants even with superpowers, just a "good" fighter? That's a great fighter imo.
You need to be more than "good" to even take on JLA and Teen Titans single handily, or fighting against Wonder Woman even though she's holding back most of the fight.
For you to even think that Steve is taking Slade easy, or at all for that matter, is a slap in the face to the JLA and Teen Titans, who are >>>>>>> Steve Rogers.
Show me something that shows why Tiger would do poorly against Steve. And not feats of Steve that I'm sure everyone has seen or knows about. Show me a scan on Tiger displaying inefficient skills in fighting. Before coming to this notion that Steve's just gonna beat him as if he's nothing.
Because I can see it both ways.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I don't see the problem people are having understanding the BT / DS fight, he wasn't going to let BT take him in, or stand there and be a punching bag... but that doesn't mean he was trying to put Ben down it was anywhere near an accurate indication of how a fight would play out. It's like a fight with a little brother, you have nothing to prove, you don't want to serious hurt them, but at the same time you aren't going to let any punches go unanswered, and you know you could end the fight in a heart beat if you were so inclined. Slade was fighting to avoid capture, not to put BT down, that is an important distinction.
1. If he had been taken in he would have been killed.
2. Pulling a knife suggests you are willing to at least badly hurt some one.
Originally posted by Deadline
1. If he had been taken in [b]he would have been killed.2. Pulling a knife suggests you are willing to at least badly hurt some one. [/B]
He knew BT wouldn't kill, him and didn't think he could hold him either. Once he found out Ben was just holding him off until the Fed arrived, Slade booked it. Also Checkmate was who wanted Slade dead, the FBI would have taken him in alive. Due process and all.
It was a box cutter don't get over board, it was more a deterrence than anything else.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He knew BT wouldn't kill, him and didn't think he could hold him either. Once he found out Ben was just holding him off until the Fed arrived, Slade booked it. Also Checkmate was who wanted Slade dead, the FBI would have taken him in alive. Due process and all.
If hes gets incarcerated he could get assasinated? DS also said that he believed that the Govt knew he was set up, if he thought he would get a fair trail why was he running? He also said the Govt wanted him dead.
BT also said that he thought the authorities wanted him brought in, Deadshot said he was a madman ie DS was right the Govt want him dead.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It was a box cutter don't get over board, it was more a deterrence than anything else.
I doesn't matter it obvoulsy indicates that DS wanted to do more effective and more damage to BT than using his fists, otherwise he wouldn't have picked up.
Originally posted by Silent Master
Even if true, how does that one fight prove that BT can beat Steve?
Because it shows that it's highly probable that Bronze Tiger could have taken Slade in that confrontation. Slade barely walked away from his first fight with Batman. So I know that someone of Bronze Tiger's skill level was at least able to hurt Slade a lot in the fight. Considering that Tiger landed the most
blows in the fight.
Also the US government wouldn't have sent Bronze Tiger after Slade, if he wasn't at least capable of completing the job.
Originally posted by Deadline
If hes gets incarcerated he could get assasinated?I doesn't matter it obvoulsy indicates that DS wanted to do more effective and more damage to BT than using his fists, otherwise he wouldn't have picked up.
Or he could escape... or just kill the potential assassin. Speculation either way.
Or he was betting someone is less likely to attack someone with a knife than someone without one. A deterrence.
Originally posted by Marvelknight
Yes I can. Because once again you're trying to see that fight in a way where it's doesn't give any credit to Bronze Tiger. And you don't "SEE" what's really happening. Slade made it clear that in no way was he going to allow Tiger to take him in.
No I "see" the fight the way it was presented on panel and in context.. where DS was hurt, blindsided and obviously didn't want BT seriously harmed.
You can't argue around that as if it doesn't matter.
While he obviously didn't want to be taken in, it doesn't automatically indicate he was trying his best to win by any means neccessary, OR even remotely suggest that he was able to.
Originally posted by Marvelknight
And Slade wasn't that hurt as you make it out to be neither. Did you forget that Slade has an accelerated healing factor?
Wolverine has a healing factor, taking damage and being under duress in physical and psychological situations still puts a tax on him... Phantom pains and all.
Originally posted by Marvelknight
Also Slade hit Tiger with some very hard hit's and Tiger didn't buckle. Tiger took an elbow to the face (elbow's are one of the hardest bones that humans have). And two hard punches followed immediately after (left and a right). But somehow you think Steve's just gonna easily knock Tiger out? WrongAnd did you ever take into consideration that Steve's gonna get hit too, or did you think Bronze Tiger is gonna tire himself out by punching at Steve's after image the entire time?
And... lulz WHAT?!
I don't think I nor anyone else suggested that Steve can easily knock BT out... 😕
At the least I certainly never made that claim, so take that strawman somewhere else.
Originally posted by Marvelknight
And then you say Slade just a "good" fighter? Again with these unfounded underestimations of Slade's fighting prowess. You're wrong there. Slade is a highly skilled fighter. Anyone who truly knows Slade will tell you this. And it's statements like this, that make me question your creditability.
But you have to look at it in a relative matter.
Even guys like Cyclops have h2h skills that are > anything any real world martial artist can accomplish in a fight and he doesn't even register a blip on Cap's radar in terms of his h2h prowess.
The fact that DS is a good fighter is compounded by the fact that he's a better preper and an even better tactician. His superhuman stats even out any playing field with typical streets who are better than him.. but that's just it, there's LOADS of people out there better than him in skill.
He's not a top tier like Cap, and that RIGHT THERE should tell you that any comparisons between him and Cap in this thread to push BT is an erroneous effort on your part.
Originally posted by Marvelknight
How can you say someone who displays tactical fighting skills 100% of the time against multiple combatants even with superpowers, just a "good" fighter? That's a great fighter imo.
That's because you don't account for the prep, weapons, or plot devices.
He's not having 1on1 h2h matchups with these people and taking them to task which is an entirely different issue, because when he does have 1on1's (especially with street level MA's) he DOESN'T do overwhelmingly impressive does he.
Yeah, he's a good fighter, and a better tactictian, it doesn't put him on Cap's h2h level and I don't even need to get into Cap's PIS levels to suggest that.
Originally posted by Marvelknight
You need to be more than "good" to even take on JLA and Teen Titans single handily, or fighting against Wonder Woman even though she's holding back most of the fight.
Originally posted by Marvelknight
For you to even think that Steve is taking Slade easy, or at all for that matter, is a slap in the face to the JLA and Teen Titans, who are >>>>>>> Steve Rogers.
Originally posted by Marvelknight
Show me something that shows why Tiger would do poorly against Steve. And not feats of Steve that I'm sure everyone has seen or knows about. Show me a scan on Tiger displaying inefficient skills in fighting. Before coming to this notion that Steve's just gonna beat him as if he's nothing.Because I can see it both ways.
Wait... you want me to show you Cap feats... but NOT the one's people know about... 🤨
Yeah... that makes sense.
Again, no one said Steve can beat him like he's nothing. What's being said is that BT doesn't bring ONE clear and distinct advantage to this fight... and he doesn't...
AND, that the fight will steadily work against his favor the longer and longer it continues.... It will.
No one said he's a pushover, no one said Cap's gonna one shot him, or that he's nothing to Cap... No argument's like that were even implied... You need a healthy dose of reality if you think otherwise.
Beyond that... Cap wins because he brings every physical advantage to this fight AT THE LEAST, and is more skilled than BT at the most.
Originally posted by Marvelknight
Because it shows that it's highly probable that Bronze Tiger could have taken Slade in that confrontation. Slade barely walked away from his first fight with Batman. So I know that someone of Bronze Tiger's skill level was at least able to hurt Slade a lot in the fight. Considering that Tiger landed the most
blows in the fight.Also the US government wouldn't have sent Bronze Tiger after Slade, if he wasn't at least capable of completing the job.
I've seen scans of Nightwing landing several unawered hits on Slade, is that proof that Nightwing can beat Cap?
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Or he could escape... or just kill the potential assassin. Speculation either way.
I edited my post. Um is DS easier to kill when hes in custody where Checkmate know where he is, or when hes on the run?
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/53838/1331030-deathstroke_vs_bronze_tiger_8_super.jpg
"They were never going to let you me take in they need me dead"
Yea so if was taken in he would have been killed by the Govt.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Or he was betting someone is less likely to attack someone with a knife than someone without one. A deterrence.
I see he was expecting a badass like BT to run off? You were talking about speculation.
By the way have you noticed that everything that you've said on this forum so far is correct?
Originally posted by jinzin
No one said he's a pushover, no one said Cap's gonna one shot him, or that he's nothing to Cap...
Well srank did say this.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He can put up a fight for the first 3-5 minutes,
Originally posted by Silent Master
I've seen scans of Nightwing landing several unawered hits on Slade, is that proof that Nightwing can beat Cap?
Slade usually beats NW doesnt he? Looks like NW used his agility and was lucky. BT did alot better than NW.
Originally posted by jinzin
😐Pretty sure you eliminated the context where he was talking about the stamina issue.
Several minutes before the stamina factor becomes a staple in the fight.
Im aware hes talking about stamina, but it pretty much sound like BT gonna get his arse kicked after 3 mins.
Anyway even if thats the case that 100% speculation.
and your still debating like your opinion is fact....
Originally posted by jinzin
No I "see" the fight the way it was presented on panel and in context.. where DS was hurt, blindsided and obviously didn't want BT seriously harmed.[b]You can't argue around that as if it doesn't matter.
[/B]
Originally posted by jinzin
While he obviously didn't want to be taken in, it doesn't automatically indicate he was trying his best to win by any means neccessary, OR even remotely suggest that he was able to.
Jinzin he would have got killed if he was taken in, ok? If you can;t understand a simple point like that don't criticse other people for making illogical arguments.
Originally posted by Deadline
Well srank did say this.Slade usually beats NW doesnt he? Looks like NW used his agility and was lucky. BT did alot better than NW.
lol
I said the fight would be even for 3-5 minutes, then Captain America would start to pull ahead as BT stamina and battle fatigue began to stack.
Originally posted by Silent Master
I've seen scans of Nightwing landing several unawered hits on Slade, is that proof that Nightwing can beat Cap?
And the most it did was piss Slade off. Dick knew he couldn't beat him and needed to catch up with Man-Bat. So Dick made a smart move by getting away. Or what about the time Dick payed Slade off instead of taking him by force.
That is the difference between Dick and Ben. Ben' motivation, demeanor, and determination showed that he was willing and able to engage Slade and take him by force. Even though Slade's stats are superior to his, Ben still did far better than Dick. Ben not only got in attacks, he took some nice attacks too and still stayed in the fight and pressed the action. Slade grabbed a knife with intent to use it. So Slade was indeed ready for a fight. But Bronze kept Slade from inserting his dominants over him. Where as Nightwing fled. So it's not even the thing we're talking about here....
Bronze Tiger clearly displayed greater effort which = greater success. And probability that he could take Slade. Nightwing merely held his own enough to survive.
