Ymir vs Mephisto

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Horsecrap on about every single level. I'm not spinning sh1t.

You seemed to have forgotten what you posted rather quickly.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
First, Domination Factor. I haven't read it in a while, but I did read it. Everything that the apple did of consequence involved the timestream. Fact: the whole adventure started because the Golden Apple froze the timestream when it was split apart. Fact: present-day Earth was only warped after Thor was offed in the far past and the Golden Apple was reunited and its power activated [b]within the nexus of mystical/physical planes of existence. Fact: everything was restored when Knorda used the Golden Apple again to undo all those time travel shenanigans, particularly Loki leading Thor to his death in the past, with more time-travel shenanigans. [/B]

Again and again. It was made abundantly clear what happened. It was outright said on panel. When the apple was split, the harbringers of the everlasting winter appeared and they unleashed chronal energies that messed with the time stream (I don’t remember whether the giants were a direct creation of Loki or the apple however):

Note another reference to the apples immeasurable power.

Bullshit. The actual warping of reality didn’t take place because of the apple assembling on the mystic plane or because of Thor’s death. Stop spinning shit. Doctor Strange (Loki) received the apple, and it was only when he reached the Earthly plane that the warping took place:

Lmao at trying to make this a location based feat.

Everything is right there. I posted all of the relevant scenes.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I'm not saying that the reality rewrite was simply a Back to the Future rip-off, but my statement stands: "Domination Factor was as much about time-travelling alteration of events and convenient nexus of mystical/physical planes of existence as it was about the magical macguffin golden apple of Idunn."

The story revolved around time travelling. The warping of reality was a result of the apples immeasurable power. I’m tired of telling you what was outright said on panel:

"The shards of the Golden Apple, born and blessed by the magic of Odin, wert capable of not only restoring thee.......but of bending reality itself in a way befitting thee!"

Since you seem to be incapable of reading the scans themselves.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Concerning the conflation of Mephisto's power with his contractual agreements, you've missed the point entirely or are ignoring it. Death God contractual agreements have been broken and directly thwarted in the past. Retcons didn't happen every time. In fact, it hasn't even happened once on-panel. So, no, I'm not going to conclude Hela and Mephisto are equals because Hela threatened a non-feat. All you're basically trying to do is project all retcon power into the Death God contract itself. You're putting the cart before the horse.

Spiderman's retcon wasn't a retcon feat performed by a broken Death God contract. Spiderman's retcon was a retcon feat performed by Mephisto in order to create a binding Death God contract. Mephisto didn't rely on the retcon power of a broken Death Contract to do what he did. Any suggestion to the contrary is absurd. I'm done arguing this false cause fallacy.

I’m not ignoring anything. I’m telling you that Mephisto’s warping of OMD was because high end demons gain a lot of power from deals. It was one of the justifications for why Mephisto could do what he did when his long history points to it being outside of his accessible power.

Can you not read? Contractual agreements apparently grant higher end demons like Mephisto and Hela (Who I would have argued to be nigh equals in at least combined forces if not individual might) a lot of power when necessary. Quesada and/or Breevort touched on this in the past -for whatever it's worth- and now it's just established in continuity. I do not understand why you have trouble accepting that.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Finally, Odin making sh1tty versions of Asgard and Asgardians isn't retconning Marvel Earth history.

Enough with this nonsense.

Lulz. And don't put words in my mouth. I pointed out that the amount of power to create a separate dimension along with Asgardians, trolls etc. is on the level of wiping the records of Parker’s memories.

And here’s another large scale feat:

Odin turns back the Celestial mechanics, retconning all of those deaths etc.

I wonder how you’ll try and spin or downplay that.

Originally posted by 753
G has been shown time and again to be on par or above the celestials, he's an abstract. odin is a skyfahter.

really? so care to show us all even ONE of these times? and while you're at it, wanna prove galactus is an abstract?

Mephisto wins

well, at least in this you're right.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Two options: [b](i) you're just that dumb to believe that Mephisto isn't that powerful, or (ii) you're trolling.

Galactus was just about matching Mephisto in his realm. Instead of understanding this, you show scans of Thor batting around Mephisto. I suppose your purpose is to somehow diminish the idea that Mephisto is powerful in his realm. If you're trying to sincerely present that (without its context) as evidence at its face value of that proposition, then you believe Thor > Galactus now. Since Thor dealt with Mephisto easier than Galactus did.

(i) After all, you're being completely sincere now and not just being an utter troll. Sorry, but you're uninformed, mistaken and mentally deficient. (ii) Alternatively, to the extent that you want to pretend to be informed, you're a troll.

(i) So thanks for wasting our time for being that r-tard about this. (ii) Or (as you guessed it), thank you for so quickly taking a precipitious dive into blatant trollery lowballing. After all, we didn't waste any further time engaging in sincere discourse that would have otherwise fallen on a deaf pair of ears, or a blind pair of eyes. [/B]

pretty much. mephisto in his realm has also wtfpwnd thor and pretty much every other hero including ss. when he has poor showings its generally because he's playing some game or other. a seriously po'd mephiso is something not often seen but is not something to trifle with.

@ Rage.Of.Olympus:

Again. HORSE. CRAP.

Let's take a look at some rather obvious scans you're leaving out and the actual progression of events that leads to the reality change. What do we know? As soon as Knorda's Apple splits apart, time freezes except for those who are protected by Loki. After that, the heroes literally spend 6 out of the 8 issues time-traveling to their pasts to retrieve the pieces. The crucial event however that occurred is that Thor dies in the past, having been ambushed by Giants and then, before being claimed by Hela, entrapped in a tree:
http://img215.imageshack.us/i/warp4.jpg/

This single event changes history and the present already as reflected by Thor vanishing. Which means he's never around anymore in Marvel Earth history, which alters the Marvel Earth's present time. That's what happens here:
http://img200.imageshack.us/i/warp5.jpg/
http://img821.imageshack.us/i/warp6.jpg/

How do we know that the timestream reflects exactly that Thor never played out his life in Marvel Earth history? People start forgetting he ever existed right away as reflected in the first scan. How do we know his death is the lynchpin to all the changes? Reed SAYS SO in the second scan, "Thor may not exist here, Ben. But I think he's the lynchpin! He was sent into the past . . . when he was killed.":

That was the basis of Loki's entire plan which relied on Knorda's Apple: to change history such that he was rid of the super-heroes who have historically vexed him, especially Thor along with the Avengers he accidentally created. Loki's entire plan was birthed from being haunted by history. He explains this in villain monologues to Knorda:

So what do we have? Already, it is a fact that history is changed simply from all the time-travel shenanigans occurring in the past. Changing the past, changes the present. You know this. That, in itself, should tell you this is mainly a time-travel Back to the Future style adventure. That's how the changes to the present reality were made. And what exactly were the changes? Everything looks futuristic and there are no super-heroes and Loki+Knorda rule the world.

Now, you may think I'm merely hypothesizing this connection between time-travel and the reality change... since it happened off-panel in that flash of power when the Apple is recombined. But I'm not theory-crafting. This is actually explained in the comics. The changes to the past were exactly why everything looks futuristic and there are no heroes: (i) Reed looks at the futuristic technology and theorizes, "Some crucial development in this world's past obviously put it on a path to technological superiority! A war, perhaps? Or lack thereof?"; (ii) Reed realizes that "Here, the others and I never journeyed into space, were never bombarded by cosmic rays! There is no Fantastic Four!"; (iii) Cap says, "If I ended up here, it must mean I never received the super-soldier serum -- must never have gone into suspended animation."

Yes, Loki remade the world, "reshaped this mudball to [Knorda's] liking." But he did it by affecting specific changes in the past, so that the world's history would play out to his liking and make the world as it always has been through a "time paradox":

The real nail in the coffin though? The specific method used to change everything back. At the climax of the story, the heroes reclaim Knorda's Apple. Well... once they reclaim it, do they simply wish reality to revert? After all, since you think the Odinpower contained in it could simply remake all of reality... why couldn't Knorda just simply reverse the changes in the present? Answer: She had to undo what the Apple actually wrought, i.e., the changes to the past which affected the present.

They all understand what it is now, "The Apple! That's the true key to the past, isn't it!" And Knorda does exactly what you would have to do to undo temporal changes in the past. She travels back to the past right before Thor is killed, where "There, I shall set things right!" by banishing the time-travelling astral form of Loki before he leads Thor into an ambush. And immediately thereafter, reality is restored:

Like I said before, "Horsecrap on about every single level. I'm not spinning sh1t." Scans speak for themselves. And spinning back an hour's worth of time with the combined might of Asgard isn't retconning Spiderman. Get your sh1t outta here.

Yes, Loki remade the world, "reshaped this mudball to [Knorda's] liking." But he did it by affecting specific changes in the past, so that the world's history would play out to his liking and make the world as it always has been through a "time paradox":

that's always been the way i've interpretted it also. there was an x-men arc with phoenix i think where something similar happened.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Before we continue, where is this from? I can't find this page in any of the comics.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Like I said before, "Horsecrap on about every single level. I'm not spinning sh1t." Scans speak for themselves. And spinning back an hour's worth of time with the combined might of Asgard isn't retconning Spiderman. Get your sh1t outta here.

Lawlz.

And the combined might of Asgard thing was just shit talking to see if Thor was willing to sacrifice his power as I read it. No, it's not the exact same feat, but it's as impressive as wiping records of Spider-Man's face.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Before we continue, where is this from? I can't find this page in any of the comics.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Lawlz.

And the combined might of Asgard thing was just shit talking to see if Thor was willing to sacrifice his power as I read it. No, it's not the exact same feat, but it's as impressive as wiping records of Spider-Man's face.

And I already told you this, Mephisto didn't just wipe records of Spiderman's face. The marriage between Mary Jane and Spiderman was completely undone from their histories, everybody's histories. Covering up Spiderman's revealing his face during Civil War was the most superficial part of what occurred.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
From #6 and 7 IIRC.

#3.5 and #3.6? I'll re-download them from a different source. Guess the ones I got were missing those.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Why would it be sh1t-talking? He said it required much of all Asgard, who was blameless in the carnage that Thor and Loki caused. For such a price, he demanded Thor's birthright. Thor sincerely giving it up was enough.

Because he wanted to see if Thor was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, his power/birthright etc. In doing so, he proved himself. IIRC, this was explained on the last page of #5.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And I already told you this, Mephisto didn't just wipe records of Spiderman's face. The marriage between Mary Jane and Spiderman was completely undone from their histories, everybody's histories. Covering up Spiderman's revealing his face during Civil War was the most superficial part of what occurred.

I know what happened. I just didn't feel the need to get descriptive.

I'm lazy, sue me.

Mephisto wiped the records of his identity and their marriage. Happy? Still, nothing beyond Odin's capabilities.

If you already complained about this, I apologize, but I haven't read your last two posts in their entirety. Too much work.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
#3.5 and #3.6? I'll re-download them from a different source. Guess the ones I got were missing those.

Because he wanted to see if Thor was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, his power/birthright etc. In doing so, he proved himself. IIRC, this was explained on the last page of #5.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I know what happened. I just didn't feel the need to get descriptive.

I'm lazy, sue me.

Mephisto wiped the records of his identity and their marriage. Happy? Still, nothing beyond Odin's capabilities.

If you already complained about this, I apologize, but I haven't read your last two posts in their entirety. Too much work.

Isn't Ymir mostly a blunt instrument? I thought Mephisto had enough mojo both powerwise and versatility wise to deal with an elemental type.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So Odin was bullsh1tting, he could do it easy. That's one way to interpret it. But wholly needless. This theory of Odin's "white lie" was not intimated, but less explained in the last page. Odin just welcomed him back after Thor's long exile because he was willing to sacrifice his birthright in exchange.

I didn't say easy, but I do think he was bullshitting. Like I said, Odin wanted to see if Thor was willing to sacrifice his birthright. He did, and so, he was welcomed back into Asgard and was allowed to keep his power.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Could Odin wipe memories/records of his secret identity from humanity? Sure. He's done as much on-panel already. Sentry did it too. Even Maxwell Lord pumped with blood did it. That's not all that Mephisto did. Mephisto didn't just wipe records or memories of their marriage away. He completely undid their marriage and altered everything thereafter. Odin's not doing that.

Disagreed.

Going to have to wait for a bit for my reply to the rest. The chronology I'm downloading is taking a while.

@Allankles

Mephisto hasn't even put down Thor in any convincing manner, how's he gonna beat a guy that hangs with Surtur and KOed Thor.

I just need confirmation on Thor's status at the time, was it Odinforce Thor or regular Thor? Either way, that's more than Mephisto did.

Mephisto's showing with Mjolnir is more impressive than what Ymir did.

But it's so above anything else in their encounters I think it's an illusion.

Originally posted by zopzop
@Allankles

Mephisto hasn't even put down Thor in any convincing manner, how's he gonna beat a guy that hangs with Surtur and KOed Thor.

I just need confirmation on Thor's status at the time, was it Odinforce Thor or regular Thor? Either way, that's more than Mephisto did.

You're talking about Odin powered Thor he's ko'ing or regular Thor? Because if it's the latter, that wouldn't put him above Mephisto, and if it's the former, context is needed (for instance whether or not Mephisto attacked Thor in similar fashion etc etc).

I'm sure there are better areas for comparison. From the little I've seen of Ymir even the latest Thor battle, he seems like a very strong physical force but that's it. Mephisto can do far more exotic things in the realms of matter manipulation and other magic based powers.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Mephisto's showing with Mjolnir is more impressive than what Ymir did.

But it's so above anything else in their encounters I think it's an illusion.

The way Thor basically RAPED Mephisto in Thor 310 has me believing that Mjolnir trick was either an illusion or a once in a lifetime feat.

PS was that Odinforce Thor or not Rage, do you know? I'm talking about that recent appearance in that free Avengers issue.

IIRC, Thor had his portion of the Odin Force at the time.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
IIRC, Thor had his portion of the Odin Force at the time.

Portion? Who had the rest? I don't really follow Thor. But if he was at least Odin level, then Ymir's win rape stomps anything Mephisto has done outside his realm.

Hell it stomps anything Mephisto has done in his realm vs Thor. The Mjolnir melting feat is suspect because it's not like Mephisto hasn't used illusions before to screw with someone's mind. Didn't he "summon" Odin's spirit one time in order to trick Thor and that turned out to be an illusion?

Mephisto still wins.

Originally posted by leonidas
really? so care to show us all even ONE of these times? and while you're at it, wanna prove galactus is an abstract?

[b]

well, at least in this you're right.

the in-betweener, who is a magical equivalent of G in the coscmic hierarchy (balancing chaos and order out), can be seen as one of the abstracts in the dimension of abstract concepts along LT and eternity when hank pym visits it, G is his equal in power on average (in fact, their encounter explicitly showed this) and his higher end showings dwarf the IB's. I'm puzzled as to how anyone could doubt G is an abstract.