Originally posted by Comics Queen
Superman has never been tossed into time by DS. Or had his power ripped out of him like Firestorm. Superman has never been erased or attempted to be erased by DS. And Superman has never beaten without plot.
Sure, Darkseid can battle field removal Superman if he wants to, but we're discussing raw power/might are we not? Yea, I don't think Darkseid owning Firestorm is any proof he could do so to Superman. Lol what? If that's what you have to tell yourself, then why not.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I don't understand how those scans prove your point.In the first scene, Darkseid managed to temporarily down Clark with a direct blast from his Omega power. Do you want me to post the entire fight? Hint: It doesn't prove what you want it to.
I only vaguely recall the second scene but I believe the demons weren't created by Darkseid's own power. So yea.
The third scene was not only a noticeably weaker Superman tanked Darkseid's ultimate weapon and IIRC, stood his ground.
Ah....so out of context scans..thanks.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusBut DS pwning Orion is. Orion is Superman's equal while possessing Superior fire power and more abilities all around. Orion>Superman. DS>>>Orion. Don't forget, Amazo with Firestorm's Powers bitched Superman. So I'd wager Firestorm is also at least as powerful as Superman.
Sure, Darkseid can battle field removal Superman if he wants to, but we're discussing raw power/might are we not? Yea, I don't think Darkseid owning Firestorm is any proof he could do so to Superman. Lol what? If that's what you have to tell yourself, then why not.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusActrually Superman was Noticeably STRONGER as that is the version of Superman that was able to help Orion push back the Multiversal S'ivaa. Superman got the 4th world amp here. Let's recall all instances please. As for the shadow demons, the point was that superman was able to defeat them easily using heat vision but once DS altered them with his power, they almost killed him. I take it you didn't know these facts so I forgive you.
I don't understand how those scans prove your point.In the first scene, Darkseid managed to temporarily down Clark with a direct blast from his Omega power. Do you want me to post the entire fight? Hint: It doesn't prove what you want it to.
I only vaguely recall the second scene but I believe the demons weren't created by Darkseid's own power. So yea.
The third scene was a noticeably weaker Superman who tanked Darkseid's ultimate weapon and IIRC, stood his ground.
Originally posted by Comics Queen
But DS pwning Orion is. Orion is Superman's equal while possessing Superior fire power and more abilities all around. Orion>Superman. DS>>>Orion. Don't forget, Amazo with Firestorm's Powers bitched Superman. So I'd wager Firestorm is also at least as powerful as Superman.
Orion's position in comparison to Superman depends solely on the writer. I could easily point to when Doomsday stomped both Martian Manhunter and Orion both in moments in comparison to Superman.
What scene are you referring to? And I highly doubt an Amazo facing Superman, only had Firestorm's powers.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusYou could point to one instance. I can point to Several where Orion was shown Equal or Superior to Superman. So do you want to try me? Your one instance to my several that show Orion is Superior to Superman. You are trying to use a low showing to make a point. I can also point to when Thor got his shit kicked in by Hulk. But we all know better. Dont' use low showings especially if it's one against dozens of different showings.
Orion's position in comparison to Superman depends solely on the writer. I could easily point to when Doomsday stomped both Martian Manhunter and Orion both in moments in comparison to Superman.What scene are you referring to? And I highly doubt an Amazo facing Superman, only had Firestorm's powers.
Originally posted by Comics QueenIt makes no difference as it's abc logic and we can already deem Superman matches up far better against Darkseid than Orion does.
You could point to one instance. I can point to Several where Orion was shown Equal or Superior to Superman. So do you want to try me? Your one instance to my several that show Orion is Superior to Superman. You are trying to use a low showing to make a point. I can also point to when Thor got his shit kicked in by Hulk. But we all know better. Dont' use low showings especially if it's one against dozens of different showings.
Originally posted by Comics Queen
Actrually Superman was Noticeably STRONGER as that is the version of Superman that was able to help Orion push back the Multiversal S'ivaa. Superman got the 4th world amp here. Let's recall all instances please. As for the shadow demons, the point was that superman was able to defeat them easily using heat vision but once DS altered them with his power, they almost killed him. I take it you didn't know these facts so I forgive you.
This is from the New Gods run is it not? IIRC, the fought S'ivaa in #9 or around there. When was Superman amped? I better not have to download the comic.
Did we see Darkseid altering them directly?
Please. If I actually put effort into this like I use to, the conversation would have ended a post or two ago.
Originally posted by Comics Queen
You could point to one instance. I can point to Several where Orion was shown Equal or Superior to Superman. So do you want to try me? Your one instance to my several that show Orion is Superior to Superman. You are trying to use a low showing to make a point. I can also point to when Thor got his shit kicked in by Hulk. But we all know better. Dont' use low showings especially if it's one against dozens of different showings.
My point stands. Using Orion as evidence against Superman is silly. He fluctuates, and can't be used as proof against Clark. A, B, C logic and all that. Futhermore, Superman is superior to Orion when the chips are down like he'd be superior to Marvel, Martian Manhunter, Diana or any other super hero. This is not debatable, this is not about power levels, this is simply how DC Comics work.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusEnded what? Do you read new gods? Anyone who enters the 4th world gets a proportainal (Spelling) Boost from the 3rd dimension. Or do you think herald level Orion and Superman actually stood a chance against S'ivaa whose finger nail ripped time space and torched millions of worlds? Come on now. Do we need to see DS alter the shadow demons? Superman says on Panel it's DS power. It's not a stretch. Stayne would kick Superman's Ass and she was altered on panel by DS.
This is from the New Gods run is it not? IIRC, the fought S'ivaa in #9 or around there. When was Superman amped? I better not have to download the comic.Did we see Darkseid altering them directly?
Please. If I actually put effort into this like I use to, the conversation would have ended a post or two ago.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusExcept when the chips where down, Superman was not Superior to Orion when Darkseid needed to be taken out in DOTNG or in Countdown. The Chips where down when the star conquerer came and Superman could do nothing and it was Orion who injured the cosmic being. It was also Orion when the chips where down who stopped sun amped Superman's assault. Orion is Equal to Superman in Physical Ability and Superior to Superman in energy manipulation. And he got one shotted by DS with no effort. You used one instance to say Superman was Superior to Orion but I see no OTHER EVIDENCE. While I site instance after instance where Orion is equal to or better than Superman.
This is from the New Gods run is it not? IIRC, the fought S'ivaa in #9 or around there. When was Superman amped? I better not have to download the comic.Did we see Darkseid altering them directly?
Please. If I actually put effort into this like I use to, the conversation would have ended a post or two ago.
My point stands. Using Orion as evidence against Superman is silly. He fluctuates, and can't be used as proof against Clark. A, B, C logic and all that. Superman is superior to Orion when the chips are down like he'd be superior to Marvel, Martian Manhunter, Diana or any other super hero. This is not debatable, this is not about power levels, this is simply how DC Comics work.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Orion's position in comparison to Superman depends solely on the writer. I could easily point to when Doomsday stomped both Martian Manhunter and Orion both in moments in comparison to Superman.What scene are you referring to? And I highly doubt an Amazo facing Superman, only had Firestorm's powers.
The amp that Comics Queen, who may or may not be someone who used to be on this board, is derived from the macro-scaling provided by the boom tube.
Regarding the shadow demons, their last appearence was in COIE. Superman was bitchslapping them then. His referencing them and saying that under Darkseid's touch they have become darker, is proof enough of enhancement.
I commend Mungi's Darkseid thread to your attention, as I think you may be ignorant on many things related to DS.
Firestorm is slept on a great deal, he's very powerful. And Amazo has demonstrated not the ability to stack powers, but to use them better than their original owners on several occasions.
Orion is Superman's equal. Granted, Superman can beat him in a fistfight, but the Astro Force pierces Superman's bio aura. Oh, and Supes has been teleported by the OE, which is equivalent to being erased. Since in order to transport you, it would have to affect you in the first place.
Originally posted by Comics QueenYou can also do the same for Superman. he stalemated Orion in dotng and looked far better in the dominus story when he took on all the heroes including Orion. Supes is his physical superior slightly whereas Orion has him in rage. Energy projection is pretty close.
Except when the chips where down, Superman was not Superior to Orion when Darkseid needed to be taken out in DOTNG or in Countdown. The Chips where down when the star conquerer came and Superman could do nothing and it was Orion who injured the cosmic being. It was also Orion when the chips where down who stopped sun amped Superman's assault. Orion is Equal to Superman in Physical Ability and Superior to Superman in energy manipulation. And he got one shotted by DS with no effort. You used one instance to say Superman was Superior to Orion but I see no OTHER EVIDENCE. While I site instance after instance where Orion is equal to or better than Superman.
Originally posted by Comics Queen
Ended what? Do you read new gods? Anyone who enters the 4th world gets a proportainal (Spelling) Boost from the 3rd dimension. Or do you think herald level Orion and Superman actually stood a chance against S'ivaa whose finger nail ripped time space and torched millions of worlds? Come on now. Do we need to see DS alter the shadow demons? Superman says on Panel it's DS power. It's not a stretch. Stayne would kick Superman's Ass and she was altered on panel by DS.
The debate. Do I read New Gods? I use to, and I would if they had any comics coming out. Unfortunately they don't.
I figured as much. You're assuming that Superman was amped by just being in the fourth world? Has that ever been mentioned? I assumed it was just an adjustment in physical size and perception unless more has been revealed. And how does Darkseid fit into all of this? Would his power not be greater on the Fourth World then in the rest of time/space? If so, it's meaningless then, because either they fight in the Fourth World or in normal space/time.
And he could easily be referring to his resources. I doubt Superman saw Darkseid alter them either.
Takion's counterpart? Unfortunately, it's been a while since I read the Takion series, but if she has access to the Source or at least uses it more effective than Takion, she'd win.