Annihilators vs 12 Imperiex Probes

Originally posted by Philosophía
Expand. The probes were never once throughout the arc, by either of the plethora of characters confronting them, pointed out to be at different powerlevel. But I'm sure I'm misremembering - care to point me to where it's stated?

They have wildly different actual performances.

Do you just assume character who look similar-but-different and fight on different levels are the same power unless someone comes out and tells you?

One can *beat down* J'onn and Kyle with several other members of the league supporting and not look to have a hard time of it, others are dispatched quickly by Superman, others still are able to stand against Superman and exchange blows for awhile even when he's going full-bore.

"Not saying they're different powers," is not evidence that they're all the same power.

I don't think we should think of them as having different power levels, they just act as different aspects/identities of Imperiex. Superman is way above Kyle and J'onn. Superman and Mongul was getting beat the first time around then the second time when the same probe returned and destroyed Topeka, Superman had to give it everything to win.

Originally posted by kevdude
I don't think we should think of them as having different power levels, they just act as different aspects/identities of Imperiex. Superman is way above Kyle and J'onn.

He's really not, the two of them together are much stronger than Supes (heck, Kyle later contains the true Imperiex). And Flash and WW were there too.

Superman and Mongul was getting beat the first time around then the second time when the same probe returned and destroyed Topeka, Superman had to give it everything to win.

Yea, and other probes he ripped through easy, and others still were only slightly in his favor. One was taken down by Diana's mother in melee. The one who took the league could not have been defeated like that.

The performance varies too much. Some probes were freakin' bricks who were really hard to hurt. Others were a lot easier to handle.

Originally posted by Q99
He's really not, the two of them together are much stronger than Supes (heck, Kyle later contains the true Imperiex). And Flash and WW were there too.

Yea, and other probes he ripped through easy, and others still were only slightly in his favor. One was taken down by Diana's mother in melee. The one who took the league could not have been defeated like that.

The performance varies too much. Some probes were freakin' bricks who were really hard to hurt. Others were a lot easier to handle.

Naah, Diana mother took TWO probes down by herself.

The thing is, its pretty obvious they were different in powerset. The one that was stalemating the JLA had a spiked ball as a hand while others were diplaying different abilities as well.

Diana mother killed two of them by tossing a space ship to their dome and black lightning along with lois father killed one with a small nuke.

Originally posted by Q99
[B]He's really not, the two of them together are much stronger than Supes (heck, Kyle later contains the true Imperiex). And Flash and WW were there too.]

Superman took on numerous probes while Kyle and J'onn took on 1 or 2?? 😕

Yea, and other probes he ripped through easy, and others still were only slightly in his favor. One was taken down by Diana's mother in melee. The one who took the league could not have been defeated like that.

The performance varies too much. Some probes were freakin' bricks who were really hard to hurt. Others were a lot easier to handle.

It seems to come down to them being separate individual probes then anything else and other circumstances range differently how they was defeated.

Originally posted by kevdude
Superman is way above Kyle and J'onn.

Originally posted by kevdude
Superman took on numerous probes while Kyle and J'onn took on 1 or 2?? 😕

It seems to come down to them being separate individual probes then anything else and other circumstances range differently how they was defeated.

It seems like you agree, but you insist on calling it something different.

A rose by any other name and all that jazz...

Originally posted by StyleTime
Care to make the thread? biscuits

Nah kwasny

That could support the argument that they vary in power level though.

It seems like you agree, but you insist on calling it something different.

A rose by any other name and all that jazz...

I can see it from that point now that you mention it. 😎

Originally posted by kevdude
Superman took on numerous probes while Kyle and J'onn took on 1 or 2?? 😕

One probe took on Kyle, J'onn, Flash, and Wonder Woman. Kyle and J'onn were taken down and then it was destroyed by Diana who was hurt by the backlash.

Superman fought multiple probes, sometimes soloing easily, sometimes soloing with difficulty, sometimes requiring help.

Hippolyta soloed a probe.

It seems to come down to them being separate individual probes then anything else and other circumstances range differently how they was defeated.

What? Your grammar's a bit odd, there.

But most of these fights were head-on without much in the way of complicated circumstances to speak of, save possessing more knowledge of probes past the first wave.

To be fair, I think kevdude agrees at this point.

Originally posted by Q99
One probe took on Kyle, J'onn, Flash, and Wonder Woman. Kyle and J'onn were taken down and then it was destroyed by Diana who was hurt by the backlash.

Superman fought multiple probes, sometimes soloing easily, sometimes soloing with difficulty, sometimes requiring help.

Hippolyta soloed a probe.

Been awhile since I've read OWAW, you are correct.

What? Your grammar's a bit odd, there.

But most of these fights were head-on without much in the way of complicated circumstances to speak of, save possessing more knowledge of probes past the first wave.

Was tired when I posted.. 🙄

And I agree with this. 👆

Originally posted by Q99
They have wildly different actual performances.

Do you just assume character who look similar-but-different and fight on different levels are the same power unless someone comes out and tells you?

One can *beat down* J'onn and Kyle with several other members of the league supporting and not look to have a hard time of it, others are dispatched quickly by Superman, others still are able to stand against Superman and exchange blows for awhile even when he's going full-bore.

"Not saying they're different powers," is not evidence that they're all the same power.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/supermancutsloose4.jpg

"As his partner is destruction personified, so he has become. And from that transformation...success. Far away from the humanity he holds in such high measure, where the probes seemed much more deadly, he has cut loose. Subsequently, the probes have offered little resistence. If only he'd have come to this conclusion on Earth, how many might've been saved?"

I'd assume you're smart enough to figure out on your own what this says, but just in case, if not for you, then for others.
(1). Once away from humanity, where the probes offered him far more resistence, Superman has cut loose, and been transformed into a Doomsday like mindset, and thus, the probes are no longer able to offer any fight.
(2). In the last phrase, it is directly stated that if he'd have done this on Earth, the same result would have taken place (ie. him plowing through the Probes attack and saving all those lives).

Bonus context: Superman holding back immensly is one of the biggest points of Jeph Loeb's whole run on the character from that period, and OWAW was practically the culmination of all of that.

Ok, and you're taking this to mean that all of the probes were the exact same?

Sure, if Superman had cut out sooner, he would've done better against the early probes. The difference in performance there was quite minor, he did solo them just with more difficulty. So maybe they were the same.

But that doesn't explain the JLA probe, that did a lot better against an assembled group of herald levels than the ones who fought holding back Superman. It was dishing out much more damage than the one in Topeka or the one who fought the Titans (who were both beaten by Superman, but in fights and and not easily slaughtered), and was able to withstand their assault too.

We have Hippolyta soloing a probe too. Hippolyta beating a near-Superman level foe, I can see. Hippolyta beating a foe that was able to take down multiple herald levels at once, I can't. Does Superman not holding back suddenly multiply her power to the level of multiple leaguers?

A difference of Superman's strengths in different fights definitely does not show equality between all probes. There are some clear standouts even when you take that into account.

Originally posted by Philosophía
It's funny, because you missed the whole point of that scene, and it's actually meant to show the opposite of what you're trying to push. It was Superman who was different, who had a chance in mindset - the probes were at the same level as the ones he met on Earth.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/supermancutsloose4.jpg

"As his partner is destruction personified, so he has become. And from that [b]transformation...success. Far away from the humanity he holds in such high measure, where the probes seemed much more deadly, he has cut loose. Subsequently, the probes have offered little resistence. If only he'd have come to this conclusion on Earth, how many might've been saved?"

I'd assume you're smart enough to figure out on your own what this says, but just in case, if not for you, then for others.
(1). Once away from humanity, where the probes offered him far more resistence, Superman has cut loose, and been transformed into a Doomsday like mindset, and thus, the probes are no longer able to offer any fight.
(2). In the last phrase, it is directly stated that if he'd have done this on Earth, the same result would have taken place (ie. him plowing through the Probes attack and saving all those lives).

Bonus context: Superman holding back immensly is one of the biggest points of Jeph Loeb's whole run on the character from that period, and OWAW was practically the culmination of all of that. [/B]

Superman had that same mindset against Diana but he still didn't drop her. Your post doesn't help your case.

Mongul entire training with Superman before fighting the probe was to have Superman unleash "all" of his power, without holding back, on this probe and he did that but the probe was still active, still fighting. Its pretty much obvious the probes had a different powerset.

Originally posted by Q99
Ok, and you're taking this to mean that all of the probes were the exact same?

Sure, if Superman had cut out sooner, he would've done better against the early probes. The difference in performance there was quite minor, he did solo them just with more difficulty. So maybe they were the same.

But that doesn't explain the JLA probe, that did a lot better against an assembled group of herald levels than the ones who fought holding back Superman. It was dishing out much more damage than the one in Topeka or the one who fought the Titans (who were both beaten by Superman, but in fights and and not easily slaughtered), and was able to withstand their assault too.

We have Hippolyta soloing a probe too. Hippolyta beating a near-Superman level foe, I can see. Hippolyta beating a foe that was able to take down multiple herald levels at once, I can't. Does Superman not holding back suddenly multiply her power to the level of multiple leaguers?

A difference of Superman's strengths in different fights definitely does not show equality between all probes. There are some clear standouts even when you take that into account.

Hippolyta took out 2 probes.

Originally posted by carver9
Hippolyta took out 2 probes.

I stand corrected.

So yea. I'm pretty sure Hippolyta going all-out is still a fair bit weaker than Kyle, J'onn, Diana, and Flash fighting normally. Even if she is wearing armor and has Diana's lasso.

The reason is simple, the League jobbed when they fought that Probe, isn't that hard to believe given... It's the JLA anyways.

Originally posted by Q99
Ok, and you're taking this to mean that all of the probes were the exact same?

Sure, if Superman had cut out sooner, he would've done better against the early probes. The difference in performance there was quite minor, he did solo them just with more difficulty. So maybe they were the same.

There's no "maybe" here. Your argument was invalid.

It's funny you use the Hippolyta argument, firstly because, just earlier in this thread you stated:

Originally posted by Q99
Oh yea, another big thing- it took the heroes awhile to realize breaching the armor with a piercing or cutting attack, preferably at a joint, was a big thing. Impacts and energy blasts don't do a lot to even the weaker probes.

Lasso which has been shown to cut through the Probe armor like butter. (let me guess, the probes also have differently durable armor, and it just happened that the only random probes that the lasso went up and worked against were the weaker ones, right?)

That wasn't something the JLA were aware of, and neither did they have the lasso, so you saying "it's ridiculous that Hippolyta outperformed the Justice League" is the equivalent of saying that since Achilles was beaten by somebody using hitting him in the tendon, it's ridiculous that he has beaten so many other, more skilled warriors, so there must be different versions of Achilles.

I also noticed you failed to fill in some blanks, conveniently, and only on your second post did you add: "even if she is wearing armor and lasso". No, she was not wearing only that. She was also wearing the Gauntlets of Atlas and Sandals of Hermes which, as you know, amp her power considerably.

And her armor was stated to be able to quite impressive:

This is ridiculous now, seriously. To anybody actually reading this story, it should be made quite clear that the probes were all at the same level (they were mass-produced, in a self-perpetuating algorithm that recycled the energy from the probes destroyed by the heroes (that explosion that messes people up when they destroy the probes? yeah, that.) and creating new ones - interrupting that process was an important story-point, actually. (or do you think they just dissapeared, without reason?)

Meh. Not necesarilly directed to you, but this forum by this point is practically just a clueless-troll fest, and it's quite sad. There should be at least a few posters who actually read the story (I don't expect this from the likes of carver, but still, not everybody's him)

Those are interesting points Philosophia, and should generate fruitful discussion to those of us who'll consider it.

If I adopt your stance though, it does raise a question. Is "Probes, hard" still a likely outcome? If an all out Superman could plow through the probes, couldn't Silver Surfer/Gladiator/Quasar replicate Superman's success?

I know A>B>C logic is frowned upon, but there are no shortage of KMCers willing to argue that Silver Sufer matches or exceeds Superman's destructive capacity; when teamed with powerhouses like Gladiator and Quasar, a Marvel victory seems probable.

The Superman that plowed through the probes is a different beast compared to his normal mindset (who has a difficult time taking down a single probe), and I wouldn't consider either character on the Annihilators team anywhere close to that level. By that point, he was treated as at least a peer to the version of Doomsday he fought alongside, and that version of Doomsday is the H/P and Doomsday Wars one (who has beaten the strongest version of the JLA, casually).

Originally posted by carver9
Hippolyta took out 2 probes.

And here is the JLA after facing 2 probes.

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/probejla12.jpg

The Superman that plowed through the probes is a different beast compared to his normal mindset (who has a difficult time taking down a single probe), and I wouldn't consider either character on the Annihilators team anywhere close to that level. By that point, he was treated as at least a peer to the version of Doomsday he fought alongside, and that version of Doomsday is the H/P and Doomsday Wars one (who has beaten the strongest version of the JLA, casually).

👆