I actually forgot about this thread.
Originally posted by StyleTime
Those are interesting points Philosophia, and should generate fruitful discussion to those of us who'll consider it.
Originally posted by Bentley
The reason is simple, the League jobbed when they fought that Probe, isn't that hard to believe given... It's the JLA anyways.
Originally posted by Philosophía
The Superman that plowed through the probes is a different beast compared to his normal mindset (who has a difficult time taking down a single probe), and I wouldn't consider either character on the Annihilators team anywhere close to that level. By that point, he was treated as at least a peer to the version of Doomsday he fought alongside, and that version of Doomsday is the H/P and Doomsday Wars one (who has beaten the strongest version of the JLA, casually).
I'm actually seeing where Philo is coming from. Superman was on a different level in that entire storyline. I can see him smashing through probes because he was going all out. Witness what he did with what has been reported as "minutes" of sundipping.
But I do think the JLA got jobbed out. 😛 However, given the fact that the lasso has now been shown to cut through their armor (not that surprising, the lasso is pretty rediculous), that means the low feat of Hippolyta is no longer a low feat.
One could point out that Supes had the "Loebforce" durlaugh. And in fairness, Loeb does push Supes pretty hard.
But..........it's not without precedent. "Even not holding back, most would argue against Superman being that far above JLA. " That's actually a major bone of contention on this board. Alot of people think Superman is overpowered or that DC gives him alot of PIS. However, how many times does someone have to do something before we stop calling PIS, and start saying that Superman really is that damn good.
Galan has a phrase for this. "When he has to be, Superman>ALL." It's not bad writing, he's Superman. It's what he does. srug
Originally posted by StyleTimeI wouldn't say those are mutually exclusive. Superman entering Doomsday's mindset is what allowed him to match his power -> Superman's power being dependent on his mindset has been consistently shown for decades now, and especially during that period.
Do you believe Superman actually grew to match Doomsday's power or just his savagery?
Originally posted by StyleTimeIt's unquantifiable, as we don't know how much of an increase in power Black Lightning had when he channeled the nuke (Black Lightning already being quite powerful to begin with). Either way, it seems that by this point you're trying to throw out fights and see if one of them sticks - but even if you find one example of an Imperiex Probe being taken by something that he shouldn't have (which you won't, by the way), it's asinine to think that would prove anything, by any stretch of the imagination, when there have been literally dozens of fights in the whole arc with Imperiex Probes, and neither showed their formidability faltering, or any kind of difference in power.
What do you make of the Black Lightning/Supergirl/MajorLane encounter?
I won't entertain a discussion where it's not so much having an informed exchange, but the other guy just desperatley wanting for what he says to be true (Imperiex Probes were different dammit!) and grasping at straws.
He was teleported on Colu instants before he was destroyed by entropy, and Brainiac used him to attack Justice League/Superman in the Doomsday Wars arc. He was then trapped in the JLA teleporter system, until he was freed in OWAW and unleashed on the Doomsday probes.
Essentially, H/P DD, DD Wars and OWAW DD were the same version.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I'm actually seeing where Philo is coming from. Superman was on a different level in that entire storyline. I can see him smashing through probes because he was going all out. Witness what he did with what has been reported as "minutes" of sundipping.But I do think the JLA got jobbed out. 😛 However, given the fact that the lasso has now been shown to cut through their armor (not that surprising, the lasso is pretty rediculous), that means the low feat of Hippolyta is no longer a low feat.
One could point out that Supes had the "Loebforce" durlaugh. And in fairness, Loeb does push Supes pretty hard.
But..........it's not without precedent. "Even not holding back, most would argue against Superman being that far above JLA. " That's actually a major bone of contention on this board. Alot of people think Superman is overpowered or that DC gives him alot of PIS. However, how many times does someone have to do something before we stop calling PIS, and start saying that Superman really is that damn good.
Galan has a phrase for this. "When he has to be, Superman>ALL." It's not bad writing, he's Superman. It's what he does. srug
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Alot of people think Superman is overpowered or that DC gives him alot of PIS. However, how many times does someone have to do something before we stop calling PIS, and start saying that Superman really is that damn good.
Originally posted by Philosophía
I wouldn't say those are mutually exclusive. Superman entering Doomsday's mindset is what allowed him to match his power -> Superman's power being dependent on his mindset has been consistently shown for decades now, and especially during that period.It's unquantifiable, as we don't know how much of an increase in power Black Lightning had when he channeled the nuke (Black Lightning already being quite powerful to begin with). Either way, it seems that by this point you're trying to throw out fights and see if one of them sticks - but even if you find one example of an Imperiex Probe being taken by something that he shouldn't have (which you won't, by the way), it's asinine to think that would prove anything, by any stretch of the imagination, when there have been literally dozens of fights in the whole arc with Imperiex Probes, and neither showed their formidability faltering, or any kind of difference in power.
I won't entertain a discussion where it's not so much having an informed exchange, but the other guy just desperatley wanting for what he says to be true (Imperiex Probes were different dammit!) and grasping at straws.
Philo debate tacics is KIND OF on point but the thing about it is... he is wrong. There is nothing to aid him in the fact that an explosion that didn't even kill black lightning and he was right there in front of the probe and it killed the probe that they were fighting. THEN the probe couldn't even take out a weakened Supergirl or Black lightning.
Then we have Diana's mother completely OWNING two probes and took their heads off by tossing a ship into them.
THEN we have Aquaman (even though he was amped) taking out a probe and would have gained the victory if it wasn't for the self destruction blast after the death of the probe.
Then we have krypto briefly stalemating one... Diana killing one with a shield to the back of the head but on the other side we have 2 probes stalemating the jla... a single probe giving Superman along with Mongul hell... another probe "after blast" koing Superman... etc, etc...
Then the sad thing that really makes this debatable is... we have EVERY probe before the ones that Superman and Doomsday fought exploding when the armor was breach but the ones that Doomsday and Supes took out didn't self destruct when Superman and Doomsday took them out. It appeared as if Imperiex didn't even get the chance to power them up... which could be understandable since Superrman and Doomsday caught Imperiex off guard, during the time he was creating the Probes... hhhmmm (why didn't they explode when their armor was pierced). The explosion from one of the probes was enough to ko Supes, why wasnt he koed during his encounter in space?
Then let's also think about this... the main probe... the one that actually gave Superman and Mongul a fight and the one that Superman trained to defeat wasn't even that powerful. The reason I am saying this is... it had to put a device together to shed a planet and it was still a possibility that it wouldn't have accomplished this... the device still wasn't powerful enough. So basically, it couldn't detroy earth under its own power and again, this probe was more powerful than any probe that appeared.
Originally posted by carver9
Philo debate tacics is KIND OF on point but the thing about it is... he is wrong. There is nothing to aid him in the fact that an explosion that didn't even kill black lightning and he was right there in front of the probe and it killed the probe that they were fighting. THEN the probe couldn't even take out a weakened Supergirl or Black lightning.
What? General Lane was killed by the Imperiex probe, when he detonated the nuclear engine of his tank to crack the shell of the probe, that gave Black Lightning a chance to get through its armour.. The explosion wouldn't kill Black Lightning since he can generate a powerful electro-magnetic force field.. The probe was fighting them and taking out the several armored divisions that was protecting the White House, with no ill effects to the probe. They was good as dead.
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/probejla15.jpg
http://img143.imageshack.us/i/image262f.jpg/
Then we have Diana's mother completely OWNING two probes and took their heads off by tossing a ship into them.
Dianas mother beat them by using the Lasso and her being amped, not by using a ship being tossed at them..
THEN we have Aquaman (even though he was amped) taking out a probe and would have gained the victory if it wasn't for the self destruction blast after the death of the probe.
Been through this before.. The probe fighting Arthur underwater and with him amped was a good showing for him, even if he died.
Originally posted by carver9
[B]Then we have krypto briefly stalemating one... Diana killing one with a shield to the back of the head but on the other side we have 2 probes stalemating the jla... a single probe giving Superman along with Mongul hell... another probe "after blast" koing Superman... etc, etc...[/B]
Krypto briefly stalemating a probe?? This look like it was stalemating to you??
http://img849.imageshack.us/i/image258.jpg/
http://img37.imageshack.us/i/image259g.jpg/
Having to be saved by Superman?
Then the sad thing that really makes this debatable is... we have EVERY probe before the ones that Superman and Doomsday fought exploding when the armor was breach but the ones that Doomsday and Supes took out didn't self destruct when Superman and Doomsday took them out. It appeared as if Imperiex didn't even get the chance to power them up... which could be understandable since Superrman and Doomsday caught Imperiex off guard, during the time he was creating the Probes... hhhmmm (why didn't they explode when their armor was pierced). The explosion from one of the probes was enough to ko Supes, why wasnt he koed during his encounter in space?
Cause they was cutting loose, and they are not the JLA.. The JLA after being attacked by 2 probes.
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/probejla12.jpg
Originally posted by kevdudeNotice how, again, they are treated exactly the same. "You have experienced first hand what one of these things is capable of - crossref/injury file: Aquaman/Wonder Woman/Manhunter -- you get the ideea."
Krypto briefly stalemating a probe?? This look like it was stalemating to you??http://img849.imageshack.us/i/image258.jpg/
http://img37.imageshack.us/i/image259g.jpg/Having to be saved by Superman?
Originally posted by carver9
Philo debate tacics is KIND OF on point but the thing about it is... he is wrong. There is nothing to aid him in the fact that an explosion that didn't even kill black lightning and he was right there in front of the probe and it killed the probe that they were fighting. THEN the probe couldn't even take out a weakened Supergirl or Black lightning.Then we have Diana's mother completely OWNING two probes and took their heads off by tossing a ship into them.
THEN we have Aquaman (even though he was amped) taking out a probe and would have gained the victory if it wasn't for the self destruction blast after the death of the probe.
Then we have krypto briefly stalemating one... Diana killing one with a shield to the back of the head but on the other side we have 2 probes stalemating the jla... a single probe giving Superman along with Mongul hell... another probe "after blast" koing Superman... etc, etc...
Then the sad thing that really makes this debatable is... we have EVERY probe before the ones that Superman and Doomsday fought exploding when the armor was breach but the ones that Doomsday and Supes took out didn't self destruct when Superman and Doomsday took them out. It appeared as if Imperiex didn't even get the chance to power them up... which could be understandable since Superrman and Doomsday caught Imperiex off guard, during the time he was creating the Probes... hhhmmm (why didn't they explode when their armor was pierced). The explosion from one of the probes was enough to ko Supes, why wasnt he koed during his encounter in space?
Then let's also think about this... the main probe... the one that actually gave Superman and Mongul a fight and the one that Superman trained to defeat wasn't even that powerful. The reason I am saying this is... it had to put a device together to shed a planet and it was still a possibility that it wouldn't have accomplished this... the device still wasn't powerful enough. So basically, it couldn't detroy earth under its own power and again, this probe was more powerful than any probe that appeared.
Lies make baby jesus cry.
Also, stop trolling.
Originally posted by carver9
Then let's also think about this... the main probe... the one that actually gave Superman and Mongul a fight and the one that Superman trained to defeat wasn't even that powerful. The reason I am saying this is... it had to put a device together to shed a planet and it was still a possibility that it wouldn't have accomplished this... the device still wasn't powerful enough. So basically, it couldn't detroy earth under its own power and again, this probe was more powerful than any probe that appeared.
No probe are more powerful then another, they are all created within the the huge Imperiex Constructs, the machine colonies, they give birth to better machines the "Cheche" which works and mates until a smaller Imperiex Probe is made. The main probe could have attacked Earth itself but the "Hollowing" process would not be nearly as perfect as its needed to be. This is why the 'constructs' are built, they can destroy a solar system and galaxy in mere hours.
http://img585.imageshack.us/i/image260.jpg/
http://img10.imageshack.us/i/image261r.jpg/
Mongul thought it to be impenetrable, but it turned out Superman going all out could destroy it. The probe would not waste the time and effort trying to attack Earth by itself and then quite possibly lose and be destroyed (and lose the information about what happened, gaining back only the energy) when it could return to Imperiex Prime with the information of Superman.
http://img830.imageshack.us/i/image254v.jpg/
http://img849.imageshack.us/i/image255f.jpg/
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/probemongul5.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/probemongul6.jpg
Originally posted by kevdude
Krypto briefly stalemating a probe?? This look like it was stalemating to you??http://img849.imageshack.us/i/image258.jpg/
http://img37.imageshack.us/i/image259g.jpg/Having to be saved by Superman?
Cause they was cutting loose, and they are not the JLA.. The JLA after being attacked by 2 probes.
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/probejla12.jpg
Again, why did all the Probes before the Doomsday and Superman encounter self destruct but the ones that they fought out in space (Superman and Ddomsday)... didn't explode?
The rest of your post doesn't make sense. Superman had to use a NUMER of moves to take out the probe that crash landed in Kansas. He also had to do the same for the Probe that was in space building a device to destroy earth. Hell, he was hitting it with small asteroids. With that said, there shouldn't have been a prayer or even a detailed thought on anyone agree that a small bomb could take out a probe including black lightning taking it out.
You are right, a lasso was involved with Diana mother taking out a probe BUT she lasso their heads off with a ship. That's either a low showing for Supes (since it took a ship toss to take two out but he struggled to take out at least 3 probes that he soloed. You can use the argument that he held back but that would still be bad on his part since again, a ship toss generated more power than a combo to ko from a ship OR we can look at it as if these probes wasn't as strong as the original or some of the others) or these probes were different in power.
Krypto and that Probe was fighting before those scans... they just showed the ending of the battle.
Originally posted by carver9
Again, why did all the Probes before the Doomsday and Superman encounter self destruct but the ones that they fought out in space (Superman and Ddomsday)... didn't explode?
It didn't explode in space because it can't, there is no air so there is no explosion. The energy will drift in space until something bigger comes along to capture it (if its close enough).
The rest of your post doesn't make sense. Superman had to use a NUMER of moves to take out the probe that crash landed in Kansas. He also had to do the same for the Probe that was in space building a device to destroy earth. Hell, he was hitting it with small asteroids. With that said, there shouldn't have been a prayer or even a detailed thought on anyone agree that a small bomb could take out a probe including black lightning taking it out.
A nuclear engine being detonated I wouldn't consider a small bomb, considering the probe was walking right through missiles (that was made to protect the White House)...
You are right, a lasso was involved with Diana mother taking out a probe BUT she lasso their heads off with a ship. That's either a low showing for Supes (since it took a ship toss to take two out but he struggled to take out at least 3 probes that he soloed. You can use the argument that he held back but that would still be bad on his part since again, a ship toss generated more power than a combo to ko from a ship OR we can look at it as if these probes wasn't as strong as the original or some of the others) or these probes were different in power.
Ship toss?? What ship toss are you talking about?? None of the ships had anything to do with her lasso cutting through decapitating them..
Krypto and that Probe was fighting before those scans... they just showed the ending of the battle.
Never seen that, what comic is it in?? How long did he last? Did the probe fall back any?? If not then its not a brief stalemate.
Originally posted by kevdude
It didn't explode in space because it can't, there is no air so there is no explosion. The energy will drift in space until something bigger comes along to capture it (if its close enough).A nuclear engine being detonated I wouldn't consider a small bomb, considering the probe was walking right through missiles (that was made to protect the White House)...
Ship toss?? What ship toss are you talking about?? None of the ships had anything to do with her lasso cutting through decapitating them..
Never seen that, what comic is it in?? How long did he last? Did the probe fall back any?? If not then its not a brief stalemate.
What are you talking about? They CAN explode in space. Diana almost DIED in SPACE from an explosion from one of the probes when she hit it in the back with a shield. You are pulling straws buddy.
That wasn't a nuclear bomb... not even close to being one.
Didn't Diana mothe ship toss and took out two probes? I also remember her taking out a probe with that lasso. Two different incidents but same fight and again, she soloed some probes, she did something the ENTIRE jla couldn't do. She did something Superman during his first run couldn't do, she easily manhandled some probes. Now the question is, do you think she is above Supes?
Before Superman got their he caught the ending of kryto and the probe fight. That wasn't a fight that just started.
Originally posted by carver9
Didn't Diana mothe ship toss and took out two probes? I also remember her taking out a probe with that lasso. Two different incidents but same fight and again, she soloed some probes, she did something the ENTIRE jla couldn't do. She did something Superman during his first run couldn't do, she easily manhandled some probes. Now the question is, do you think she is above Supes?
Yes if he is going all out he is above her....
Before Superman got their he caught the ending of kryto and the probe fight. That wasn't a fight that just started.
So that was the entire fight then?? One page?? Ok I got it, its not anything like a stalemate.. Everything else you have brought up has been answered, doesn't matter if you don't like the answers or not.
spam_laser
Notice how, again, they are treated exactly the same. "You have experienced first hand what one of these things is capable of - crossref/injury file: Aquaman/Wonder Woman/Manhunter -- you get the ideea."
👆 Yup, good thing we have the comics to show and know otherwise.
