Originally posted by -Pr-
And yet plenty of people disagree. Including me. It just happened to happen AFTER I read your posts.
Are you going to actually explain why you disagree or are you just going to state that its illogical, again? So you're basically arguing that her speed gives her an advantage against getting shot despite the fact her feats aren't superior to Spidermans, but because you disagree that make my point illogical?
Originally posted by -Pr-
1. I don't believe all energy weapons are light-speed. But if it was, what does that mean you're saying Frank's reflexes are?
I know but I gave reasons as to why we could give it the benefit of the doubt. He obvoulsy didn't dodge the laser.
Originally posted by -Pr-
2. That's an assumption. You'd need actual evidence to support it.
Please provide proof that the bullets that were fired at Cass are moving at standard bullet speed then. I've seen a scan of a normal human see and dodge a bullet after its fired, therefore I'm going to assume that the bullet was moving at 10 mph.
Originally posted by -Pr-3. So is that.
What.
Originally posted by -Pr-4. That's a fair point, but she's still faster.
I know.
Originally posted by -Pr-5. It would still have trouble matching the Cass feat you posted, imo.
Of course you would it's expected.
Originally posted by Deadline
Are you going to actually explain why you disagree or are you just going to state that its illogical, again? So you're basically arguing that her speed gives her an advantage despite the fact her feats aren't superior to Spidermans, but because you disagree that make my point illogical, got it.
umm, no. also, spider-man has nothing to do with this thread.
I know but I gave reasons as to why we could give it the benefit of the doubt. He obvoulsy didn't dodge the laser.
all right.
Please provide proof that the bullets that were fired at Cass are moving at standard bullet speed then.
i don't have to. unless stated otherwise, things that exist in the real world act exactly the same in the comics world. the sun is the same, the sky, bullets, oxygen, everything, as long as it's not stated otherwise.
What.
an assumption.
of course you would it's expected.
what's expected?
Originally posted by DeadlinePost one. Just one.
Really so pointing out that the people Punisher has shot have better feats and comparable ones isn't countering it?
Also, it's irrelevant. None of those people can predict an opponents movements/actions and thoughts like Cass can.
Originally posted by Deadlinebermm
I also pointed hes a better marksmen than people who have tried to shoot Batgirl.
as i told you, that doesn't matter. Frank could be Bullseye with a gun and it still wouldn't matter 'cause, wait for it... SHE DODGES BULLETS!!!! Seriously, am i missing something, does Frank shoot bullets that follow his opponent when they move? She dodged a bullet that was shot from a gun which was 5 inches from her face... no amount of marksmanship is countering that because the shooter has to fire at a specific target, and as mentioned, Cass isn't gonna just stand there.
Originally posted by -Pr-
umm, no.
Y know what I really suspect you didn't even understand the point I was making. Please clarify what your point is.
Originally posted by -Pr-
also, spider-man has nothing to do with this thread.
Now you're dictating what ABC logic is. It doesn't matter wether Spiderman isn't in this thread hes still relevant. I'm not just talking about Spiderman, its Daredevil, Wolverine and Sabretooth. Also none of her shooters have the feats that Punisher has.
You yourself make comparisons to other characters so don't start dictating what ABC logic is when you feel like it. David Cain and Deathstroke aren't in this thread either (Q99 mentioned them).
Originally posted by -Pr-i don't have to. unless stated otherwise, things that exist in the real world act exactly the same in the comics world. the sun is the same, the sky, bullets, oxygen, everything, as long as it's not stated otherwise.
and in the real world hi-tech equipment tends to be better than standard equipment. Thank you.
Originally posted by -Pr-an assumption.
You're assuming that the bullets were going at standard bullet speed. I've seen a scan of a normal human see and dodge bullet.
You clearly think that Batgirl wins the majority, and that obvoulsy has something to do with her feats against other people that are NOT in this thread.
Whoever fired this gun isn't in this thread either.
http://media.photobucket.com/image/Batgirl%20bullet%20dodging/SaintSaturn/Batgirl13pg03.jpg
Originally posted by marwash22
Post one. Just one.Also, it's irrelevant. None of those people can predict an opponents movements/actions and thoughts like Cass can.
Punisher has shot the web-shooters off Spider-man's wrists, and Spider-man is faster / more agile than Batgirl and his spider-sense is boarder line pre-cog. He has also shot Daredevil (who himself has the ability to read body language and predict his opponents movements), and Daredevil has also stated that Punisher purposelessly misses to avoid killing him while still aiming his shots to purposely force Matt into a disadvantageous position.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Punisher has shot the web-shooters off Spider-man's wrists, and Spider-man is faster / more agile than Batgirl and his spider-sense is boarder line pre-cog. He has also shot Daredevil (who himself has the ability to read body language and predict his opponents movements), and Daredevil has also stated that Punisher purposelessly misses to avoid killing him while still aiming his shots to purposely force Matt into a disadvantageous position.
Not a valid argument.
Originally posted by -Pr-
spider-man has nothing to do with this thread.
I could post those examples but it clearly seems that nothing I say makes a difference, people are just determined to ignore my arguments.
Originally posted by srankmissingnincool. But how is any of that the same as being able to read a person and tell what they are going to do... before they even do it?
Punisher has shot the web-shooters off Spider-man's wrists, and Spider-man is faster / more agile than Batgirl and his spider-sense is boarder line pre-cog. He has also shot Daredevil (who himself has the ability to read body language and predict his opponents movements), and Daredevil has also stated that Punisher purposelessly misses to avoid killing him while still aiming his shots to purposely force Matt into a disadvantageous position.
Originally posted by marwash22
cool. But how is any of that the same as being able to read a person and tell what they are going to do... before they even do it?
Daredevil's radar sense affords him essentially the same ability as Batgirl's body reading, it just isn't done off of visual cues and it extends past the limitations of the human body and works on projectiles (ie bullets) as well. It's why he had trouble with Lady Bullseye, because he was unable to anticipate her movements for some thinly defined reason that made little sense. Batgirl isn't the only person who can predict an attack by reading body language... Shang-Chi was doing it in the 70s... with Jaguars.
Originally posted by marwash22
Post one. Just one.Also, it's irrelevant. None of those people can predict an opponents movements/actions and thoughts like Cass can.
bermm
as i told you, that doesn't matter. Frank could be Bullseye with a gun and it still wouldn't matter 'cause, wait for it... SHE DODGES BULLETS!!!! Seriously, am i missing something, does Frank shoot bullets that follow his opponent when they move? She dodged a bullet that was shot from a gun which was 5 inches from her face... no amount of marksmanship is countering that because the shooter has to fire at a specific target, and as mentioned, Cass isn't gonna just stand there.
Heres some Spiderman feats.
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/5990/feat34speed1ym0.jpg
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/1453/feat34speed2kl1.jpg
http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/4484/feat43speedequipmentcn2.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/6706/feat44speedgx6.jpg
Dodging simultaneous blasts from a guy named Chance, who has a suit equipped with a targeting computer.
http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?image=29817cz.gif
Punisher pins Spiderman to a wall with a knife.
Punisher makes Spiderman look like a mug.
Punisher is only aiming to wound but missed Spiderman by inches. If he was trying to kill him Spiderman would probably be dead.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Heres what Greg Rucka had to say.
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/c2e2-punisher-greg-rucka-110320.html
I was talking to a friend about this, and he threw out a particular item that exists in the Marvel Universe, that one wonders why Frank has never tried to acquire, because the things he could do with it are devastating. And he doesn’t need much — here’s a guy who rarely misses anyway
Originally posted by Deadline
http://media.photobucket.com/image/Batgirl%20bullet%20dodging/SaintSaturn/Batgirl13pg03.jpg
this is quintessentially why bulletdodging feats should not be considered as evidence
lets make this the best case scenario for Cass, lets say the bullets are 2 meters away from her (they are clearly drawn closer) and suppose she is being shot at by a handgun (a rifle bullet can be 3 times as fast) [though, from the rate of fire depicted, it might have to be a semi-automatic weapon, but I guess if my point is the writer doesn't care about how guns work, this isn't important].
Glock 17 fires at 317 m/s (meters per second). This means, it would take 6-7 ms for the bullet to travel 2 meters (6 ms = 0.006 seconds).
look at the third to fourth panels. Cass clearly is able to stop her momentum to the left (her right) and begin rightward movement to avoid the bullet that is drawn on a direct path to her. This can't be argued as her "judging where the gun is pointing", she is shown as literally dodging a bullet already in flight toward her.
If we think this is a valid feat, you are saying Cass can dodge blows in roughly 5ms, or 0.005 seconds.
To put this into perspective, the glock fires at 317 m/s, the speed of sound is 340 m/s.
do I have to spell this out any clearer? in a fight where we don't assume the bullets are job, Cass has no business dodging them. She doesn't come close to fast enough. Here is a good mnemonic to remember this: Can she dodge sound? If you are ever wondering if someone could dodge a bullet, ask yourself if they are faster than sound. If they are not, and don't have some type of precog (even then, Spiderman shouldn't dodge all the bullets he does), they can't dodge bullets. period. one might "dodge where the gun is pointing", and maybe arguing against that would be like arguing that radiation doesn't give you spider powers, but the scan I've quoted should be put in a shredder. I'd have written LOL on the writer's pink slip.
find real scans of her moving fast, or really, don't try to argue that Frank can't tag her
Originally posted by marwash22
as i told you, that doesn't matter. Frank could be Bullseye with a gun and it still wouldn't matter 'cause, wait for it... SHE DODGES BULLETS!!!! Seriously, am i missing something, does Frank shoot bullets that follow his opponent when they move? She dodged a bullet that was shot from a gun which was 5 inches from her face... no amount of marksmanship is countering that because the shooter has to fire at a specific target, and as mentioned, Cass isn't gonna just stand there.
does she have those type of speed feats for any context that doesn't involve bullets?
Originally posted by inimalist
this is quintessentially why bulletdodging feats should not be considered as evidencelets make this the best case scenario for Cass, lets say the bullets are 2 meters away from her (they are clearly drawn closer) and suppose she is being shot at by a handgun (a rifle bullet can be 3 times as fast) [though, from the rate of fire depicted, it might have to be a semi-automatic weapon, but I guess if my point is the writer doesn't care about how guns work, this isn't important].
Glock 17 fires at 317 m/s (meters per second). This means, it would take 6-7 ms for the bullet to travel 2 meters (6 ms = 0.006 seconds).
look at the third to fourth panels. Cass clearly is able to stop her momentum to the left (her right) and begin rightward movement to avoid the bullet that is drawn on a direct path to her. This can't be argued as her "judging where the gun is pointing", she is shown as literally dodging a bullet already in flight toward her.
If we think this is a valid feat, you are saying Cass can dodge blows in roughly 5ms, or 0.005 seconds.
To put this into perspective, the glock fires at 317 m/s, the speed of sound is 340 m/s.
do I have to spell this out any clearer? in a fight where we don't assume the bullets are job, Cass has no business dodging them. She doesn't come close to fast enough. Here is a good mnemonic to remember this: Can she dodge sound? If you are ever wondering if someone could dodge a bullet, ask yourself if they are faster than sound. If they are not, and don't have some type of precog (even then, Spiderman shouldn't dodge all the bullets he does), they can't dodge bullets. period. one might "dodge where the gun is pointing", and maybe arguing against that would be like arguing that radiation doesn't give you spider powers, but the scan I've quoted should be put in a shredder. I'd have written LOL on the writer's pink slip.
find real scans of her moving fast, or really, don't try to argue that Frank can't tag her
Its a comicbook. It doesn't matter wether it doesn't make any sense what matters is if they can do it. If you want to argue they can't dodge bullets then the whole universe falls apart hell Dr Strange and Spiderman shouldn't even exist.
Sure theres some illogical stuff but we have to look at the context of the universe ie Punisher can't KO Galactus.
