Originally posted by srankmissingninnot really the same thing. Cass doesn't just anticipate movements, she also reads body language and knows what they will do. she beats a dude 100 straight times in rock-paper-scissors... Daredevil and Spider-man can't do that.
Daredevil's radar sense affords him essentially the same ability as Batgirl's body reading, it just isn't done off of visual cues and it extends past the limitations of the human body and works on projectiles (ie bullets) as well. It's why he had trouble with Lady Bullseye, because he was unable to anticipate her movements for some thinly defined reason that made little sense. Batgirl isn't the only person who can predict an attack by reading body language... Shang-Chi was doing it in the 70s... with Jaguars.
Originally posted by Deadline
Heres some Spiderman feats.http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/5990/feat34speed1ym0.jpg
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/1453/feat34speed2kl1.jpghttp://img482.imageshack.us/img482/4484/feat43speedequipmentcn2.jpg
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/6706/feat44speedgx6.jpgDodging simultaneous blasts from a guy named Chance, who has a suit equipped with a targeting computer.
http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?image=29817cz.gifPunisher pins Spiderman to a wall with a knife.
Punisher makes Spiderman look like a mug.
Punisher is only aiming to wound but missed Spiderman by inches. If he was trying to kill him Spiderman would probably be dead.
1. Spidey has no MA skill.
2. Spidey can't predict actions and thoughts.
Originally posted by inimalist
this is quintessentially why bulletdodging feats should not be considered as evidencelets make this the best case scenario for Cass, lets say the bullets are 2 meters away from her (they are clearly drawn closer) and suppose she is being shot at by a handgun (a rifle bullet can be 3 times as fast) [though, from the rate of fire depicted, it might have to be a semi-automatic weapon, but I guess if my point is the writer doesn't care about how guns work, this isn't important].
Glock 17 fires at 317 m/s (meters per second). This means, it would take 6-7 ms for the bullet to travel 2 meters (6 ms = 0.006 seconds).
look at the third to fourth panels. Cass clearly is able to stop her momentum to the left (her right) and begin rightward movement to avoid the bullet that is drawn on a direct path to her. This can't be argued as her "judging where the gun is pointing", she is shown as literally dodging a bullet already in flight toward her.
If we think this is a valid feat, you are saying Cass can dodge blows in roughly 5ms, or 0.005 seconds.
To put this into perspective, the glock fires at 317 m/s, the speed of sound is 340 m/s.
do I have to spell this out any clearer? in a fight where we don't assume the bullets are job, Cass has no business dodging them. She doesn't come close to fast enough. Here is a good mnemonic to remember this: Can she dodge sound? If you are ever wondering if someone could dodge a bullet, ask yourself if they are faster than sound. If they are not, and don't have some type of precog (even then, Spiderman shouldn't dodge all the bullets he does), they can't dodge bullets. period. one might "dodge where the gun is pointing", and maybe arguing against that would be like arguing that radiation doesn't give you spider powers, but the scan I've quoted should be put in a shredder. I'd have written LOL on the writer's pink slip.
find real scans of her moving fast, or really, don't try to argue that Frank can't tag her
Originally posted by inimalistyes. I've already given examples of how her speed isn't human-level.
does she have those type of speed feats for any context that doesn't involve bullets?
she has knocked out 5 or 6 people in less time than it takes for a gun to hit the ground.
Originally posted by Deadline
Its a comicbook. It doesn't matter wether it doesn't make any sense what matters is if they can do it. If you want to argue they can't dodge bullets then the whole universe falls apart hell Dr Strange and Spiderman shouldn't even exist.
actually, it makes complete sense here
bullets tend to elicit feats from street-meta level characters that are entirely inconsistent with their power-set, therefore we shouldn't include feats that involve bulletdodging when determining how fast a character is. Most of my post is just proof of that concept.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
She ran through a compound at night as a blur, knocking over the guards.
oh, she is a legit speedster then?
Originally posted by marwash22
not really the same thing. Cass doesn't just anticipate movements, she also reads body language and knows what they will do. she beats a dude 100 straight times in rock-paper-scissors... Daredevil and Spider-man can't do that.
You're assuming that he specific ability gives her an advantage because its different. Even if those guys can't do that it doesn't prove anything. Nightwing can't do that he dealt with her just fine.
Actually they probably could.
Originally posted by marwash22
1. Spidey has no MA skill.
He doesn't need to his powers give him the equivalent of MA skill.
Originally posted by marwash22
2. Spidey can't predict actions and thoughts.
Yes he can.
Originally posted by marwash22
she has knocked out 5 or 6 people in less time than it takes for a gun to hit the ground.
You didn't see the scans I posted that were much better than Casses, so because Spiderman hasn't specifically done that that makes him slower?
Originally posted by marwash22
i can discredit on panel feats too. but why go there? 😐
You just did.
Originally posted by inimalist
actually, it makes complete sense herebullets tend to elicit feats from street-meta level characters that are entirely inconsistent with their power-set, therefore we shouldn't include feats that involve bulletdodging when determining how fast a character is. Most of my post is just proof of that concept.
Its not inconsistent with their powerset and it doesn't matter wether it makes any sense. Yea she can dodge bullets and she can still get punched in the face...thats the way it goes.
Even if you go by math she may not have even dodged the bullet after they were fired and it also depends on the distance. In some cases you just need to move 60mph.
Originally posted by Deadlinethat wasn't even in response to you or the Spider-man scans.
You didn't see the scans I posted that were much better than Casses, so because Spiderman hasn't specifically done that that makes him slower?
Originally posted by Deadlinenope.
You just did.
Originally posted by Existere
Sure they could.
Originally posted by marwash22
nope.
Originally posted by Deadline
Its not inconsistent with their powerset and it doesn't matter wether it makes any sense.
well, actually, on the forums it does matter if it makes sense.
I have a scan of spider-man one shotting Starhawk
Starhawk not only has FTL reflexes, he has taken shots from Wonderman (a future version that tore apart spaceships with his bare hands, and starhawk shrugged off a fierce beating), Silver Surfer (keeper), Firelord, been in a sun, and shrugged them off, literally.
so, do we now suggest that Spider-Man can tag opponents moving FTL and one shot people with herald level durability? of course we dont.
even running indeterminantly fast and beating up 6 people in an indeterminant amount of time don't come close to the 4 panel scan I quoted. If you think they do, you have underestimated how fast bullets move.
But here is the most important part. This is a trend in all comics. I'm not singling Cass out and saying, look at why her feats are BS, I'm saying the entire way guns are treated in comics makes using them as feats moot. Hell, I'm not even saying Cass can't move faster than bullets, just that evidence from bulletdodging (something people we would all agree are slower than Cass can do effortlessly) is not good evidence.
Originally posted by Deadline
Even if you go by math she may not have even dodged the bullet after they were fired and it also depends on the distance. In some cases you just need to move 60mph.
the specific scan, and the issues with it, are well explained in my post. I dont see how you could take that to suggest that it holds for every case of bulletdodging ever. The scan is emblematic of my point though, as it has Cass doing things, literally, in the span of what would be milliseconds, faster than the time it takes light to move from the retina to any level of processing. not that this last time is important, its just, again, to emphasize that the times we are talking here aren't just "beyond human"
Originally posted by inimalistThis is all true. Cass has no business dodging bullets. That doesn't delegitimize the feat though, nor make it PIS, due to (as you've pointed out) the nature of bullet dodging feats in comics.
this is quintessentially why bulletdodging feats should not be considered as evidencelets make this the best case scenario for Cass, lets say the bullets are 2 meters away from her (they are clearly drawn closer) and suppose she is being shot at by a handgun (a rifle bullet can be 3 times as fast) [though, from the rate of fire depicted, it might have to be a semi-automatic weapon, but I guess if my point is the writer doesn't care about how guns work, this isn't important].
Glock 17 fires at 317 m/s (meters per second). This means, it would take 6-7 ms for the bullet to travel 2 meters (6 ms = 0.006 seconds).
look at the third to fourth panels. Cass clearly is able to stop her momentum to the left (her right) and begin rightward movement to avoid the bullet that is drawn on a direct path to her. This can't be argued as her "judging where the gun is pointing", she is shown as literally dodging a bullet already in flight toward her.
If we think this is a valid feat, you are saying Cass can dodge blows in roughly 5ms, or 0.005 seconds.
To put this into perspective, the glock fires at 317 m/s, the speed of sound is 340 m/s.
do I have to spell this out any clearer? in a fight where we don't assume the bullets are job, Cass has no business dodging them. She doesn't come close to fast enough. Here is a good mnemonic to remember this: Can she dodge sound? If you are ever wondering if someone could dodge a bullet, ask yourself if they are faster than sound. If they are not, and don't have some type of precog (even then, Spiderman shouldn't dodge all the bullets he does), they can't dodge bullets. period. one might "dodge where the gun is pointing", and maybe arguing against that would be like arguing that radiation doesn't give you spider powers, but the scan I've quoted should be put in a shredder. I'd have written LOL on the writer's pink slip.
find real scans of her moving fast, or really, don't try to argue that Frank can't tag her
Each street level character dodges bullets all the damn time, and we accept that that happens. We don't fool ourselves into believing that they could apply that kind of speed in other scenarios unless otherwise shown.
However, given that each street leveler can dodge bullets without breaking a sweat, if one character dodges them much more impressively, they are still demonstrating more impressive speed. That's a conscious choice of the writer to one-up other bullet dodging feats in order to imply that their character is that much faster. Even if the bullet dodging collection of feats don't make sense as a whole, we can't toss them out without taking into account what they show about the characters speed in relation to each other.
So...
I think there's an argument for Cass being significantly faster than Frank due to her ability to dodge bullets much more impressively thank Frank.
Originally posted by Existere
So...I think there's an argument for Cass being significantly faster than Frank due to her ability to dodge bullets much more impressively thank Frank.
Actually know of the scans provided are better than anything hes done. I do think shes faster but its not going to help.
Originally posted by Existere
This is all true. Cass has no business dodging bullets. That doesn't delegitimize the feat though, nor make it PIS, due to (as you've pointed out) the nature of bullet dodging feats in comics.Each street level character dodges bullets all the damn time, and we accept that that happens. We don't fool ourselves into believing that they could apply that kind of speed in other scenarios unless otherwise shown.
However, given that each street leveler can dodge bullets without breaking a sweat, if one character dodges them much more impressively, they are still demonstrating more impressive speed. That's a conscious choice of the writer to one-up other bullet dodging feats in order to imply that their character is that much faster. Even if the bullet dodging collection of feats don't make sense as a whole, we can't toss them out without taking into account what they show about the characters speed in relation to each other.
So...
I think there's an argument for Cass being significantly faster than Frank due to her ability to dodge bullets much more impressively thank Frank.
interesting
yes, I would agree Cass is faster than frank, but not faster than bullets. I didn't think of the "comparative" thing, but that makes some sense, if I still don't accept the specific context of the feat
however, the primary in this debate isn't (imho at least) if Cass can beat frank h2h, she probably can, or if she is faster than Frank can punch, but if she can reasonably close 100m to get to Frank before he shoots her. In that context, her ability to weave through a stream of gunfire is pretty relevant.
Originally posted by Deadlinehuh?
I do think shes faster but its not going to help.
can you explain your logic. I asked before and you blew me off; i guess you thought i was being sarcastic or something. You know she's faster and is better at MA... so why exactly do you think Frank wins, is it strictly because he has had good showings against other people?
Originally posted by inimalist
well, actually, on the forums it does matter if it makes sense.I have a scan of spider-man one shotting Starhawk
Starhawk not only has FTL reflexes, he has taken shots from Wonderman (a future version that tore apart spaceships with his bare hands, and starhawk shrugged off a fierce beating), Silver Surfer (keeper), Firelord, been in a sun, and shrugged them off, literally.
so, do we now suggest that Spider-Man can tag opponents moving FTL and one shot people with herald level durability? of course we dont.
even running indeterminantly fast and beating up 6 people in an indeterminant amount of time don't come close to the 4 panel scan I quoted. If you think they do, you have underestimated how fast bullets move.
But here is the most important part. This is a trend in all comics. I'm not singling Cass out and saying, look at why her feats are BS, I'm saying the entire way guns are treated in comics makes using them as feats moot. Hell, I'm not even saying Cass can't move faster than bullets, just that evidence from bulletdodging (something people we would all agree are slower than Cass can do effortlessly) is not good evidence.
the specific scan, and the issues with it, are well explained in my post. I dont see how you could take that to suggest that it holds for every case of bulletdodging ever. The scan is emblematic of my point though, as it has Cass doing things, literally, in the span of what would be milliseconds, faster than the time it takes light to move from the retina to any level of processing. not that this last time is important, its just, again, to emphasize that the times we are talking here aren't just "beyond human"
Completely faulty logic, thats why I specified context within the marvel universe. Spiderman one-shotting Starhawk is completely illogical because we know from Spidermans overall performance it shouldn't be possible.
Characters have been dodging bullets for 1000s of years 100 times a day since the dawn of comics.
Originally posted by inimalistCool.
interestingyes, I would agree Cass is faster than frank, but not faster than bullets. I didn't think of the "comparative" thing, but that makes some sense, if I still don't accept the specific context of the feat
however, the primary in this debate isn't (imho at least) if Cass can beat frank h2h, she probably can, or if she is faster than Frank can punch, but if she can reasonably close 100m to get to Frank before he shoots her. In that context, her ability to weave through a stream of gunfire is pretty relevant.
Originally posted by Deadline
Completely faulty logic, thats why I specified context within the marvel universe. Spiderman one-shotting Starhawk is completely illogical because we know from Spidermans overall performance it shouldn't be possible.Characters have been dodging bullets for 1000s of years 100 times a day since the dawn of comics.
what does this refute?
yes, they have been doing it since day 1, it still doesn't suggest any of the characters doing it have super-sonic reflexes
