Originally posted by marwash22
huh?can you explain your logic. I asked before and you blew me off; i guess you thought i was being sarcastic or something. You know she's faster and is better at MA... so why exactly do you think Frank wins, is it strictly because he has had good showing against other people?
Of course. Speed and skill arent the only factors in a fight. Punisher is very fast and highly skilled and has an amazing damage soak. Her skill and speed IMO aren't enough to give her an advantage.
Hell the guy was fighting Daken with a broken leg (and other injuries).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daken#Powers_and_abilities
Originally posted by inimalist
what does this refute?yes, they have been doing it since day 1, it still doesn't suggest any of the characters doing it have super-sonic reflexes
Of course not. Seems I don't get you.
Originally posted by marwash22
fair enough, i guess. So, basically, iyo, no street level (non-meta) character is beating Punisher in a forum fight?
Nope any A-list street leveler who doesn't have the damage soak to match Pun will win eg DD, non-chi amping Iron Fist, Batgirl etc.
People that would beat Pun are Cap, Batman, Shang Chi, Wolverine (without powers). Those guys win because they are highly skilled and have very impressive damage soak as well.
Originally posted by Deadline
Of course not. Seems I don't get you.
bulletdodging feats should not be used to determine the strict limit of character's speeds. If they are that fast, they will have feats outside of bulletdodging where they move that fast, if they dont, they aren't that fast.
though, as Existere just pointed out, they arent totally worthless, as the ability of one character to dodge bullets does indicate how fast the writer is trying to make them, outside of the speed needed to dodge bullets
Originally posted by inimalist
bulletdodging feats should not be used to determine the strict limit of character's speeds. If they are that fast, they will have feats outside of bulletdodging where they move that fast, if they dont, they aren't that fast.though, as Existere just pointed out, they arent totally worthless, as the ability of one character to dodge bullets does indicate how fast the writer is trying to make them, outside of the speed needed to dodge bullets
I think I agree for the most part.
Originally posted by inimalistThank you! Not only that, but the bullet would go off through them before the sound was made.
this is quintessentially why bulletdodging feats should not be considered as evidencelets make this the best case scenario for Cass, lets say the bullets are 2 meters away from her (they are clearly drawn closer) and suppose she is being shot at by a handgun (a rifle bullet can be 3 times as fast) [though, from the rate of fire depicted, it might have to be a semi-automatic weapon, but I guess if my point is the writer doesn't care about how guns work, this isn't important].
Glock 17 fires at 317 m/s (meters per second). This means, it would take 6-7 ms for the bullet to travel 2 meters (6 ms = 0.006 seconds).
look at the third to fourth panels. Cass clearly is able to stop her momentum to the left (her right) and begin rightward movement to avoid the bullet that is drawn on a direct path to her. This can't be argued as her "judging where the gun is pointing", she is shown as literally dodging a bullet already in flight toward her.
If we think this is a valid feat, you are saying Cass can dodge blows in roughly 5ms, or 0.005 seconds.
To put this into perspective, the glock fires at 317 m/s, the speed of sound is 340 m/s.
do I have to spell this out any clearer? in a fight where we don't assume the bullets are job, Cass has no business dodging them. She doesn't come close to fast enough. Here is a good mnemonic to remember this: Can she dodge sound? If you are ever wondering if someone could dodge a bullet, ask yourself if they are faster than sound. If they are not, and don't have some type of precog (even then, Spiderman shouldn't dodge all the bullets he does), they can't dodge bullets. period. one might "dodge where the gun is pointing", and maybe arguing against that would be like arguing that radiation doesn't give you spider powers, but the scan I've quoted should be put in a shredder. I'd have written LOL on the writer's pink slip.
find real scans of her moving fast, or really, don't try to argue that Frank can't tag her
Bullets are jobbers in comics, everybody "dodges" them. Streets can "aim dodge" bullets, but nobody below Spider-Man should dodge the actual bullet (and that's only at a certain distance away and his Spider-sense).
Originally posted by DeadlineWell, at least i know where you're coming from now.
Nope any A-list street leveler who doesn't have the damage soak to match Pun will win eg DD, non-chi amping Iron Fist, Batgirl etc.People that would beat Pun are Cap, Batman, Shang Chi, Wolverine (without powers). Those guys win because they are highly skilled and have very impressive damage soak as well.
Originally posted by marwash22
Well, at least i know where you're coming from now.
Just to add here another showing of what I'm talking about.
Originally posted by Deadline
[b]Kraven The Hunter Gauntlet.
I’m putting these series of fights under one heading because its arguably Punishers most impressive h2h showing. It also shows how tough he is. Punisher fights Kraven The Hunter a guy who has beaten Black Panther in h2h and held his own against Spiderman. See what he goes through before fighting him.First he fights a berserk Tiger Shark
Fights a berserk Mandrill ( a Daredevil enemy)
Then runs from Swarm and Gargoyle who cause him to pass out from the damage.
[/B]
I don't get why you guys are spending page after page debating comic physics. Bullet dodging doesn't make you a speedster, specific bullet speed feats CAN translate into movement/combat speed unless the character is shown deficient otherwise, and Batgirl does have the best bullet dodging feat of any street leveler (excluding Cap outrunning that bullet).
Batgirl wins because she's leagues faster, way more skilled, and she's up against a second rate trigger happy martial artist. He's a complete tier below her in just about everything sans durability and equipment, but - as mentioned previously - Cassie isn't getting shot.
Originally posted by Konton
Batgirl wins because she's leagues faster, way more skilled, and she's up against a second rate trigger happy martial artist. He's a complete tier below her in just about everything sans durability and equipment, but -
Except none of the scans posted proves shes faster (she is), she isn't way more skilled. He isn't so slow and lacking in skill that he is at a major disadvantage and he has insane damage soak. Punisher has got the advantage and stalemated opponents tougher than her.
Originally posted by Kontonas mentioned previously - Cassie isn't getting shot.
Did you not see the scans of Punisher shooting people who are faster than her?
Originally posted by Konton
I don't get why you guys are spending page after page debating comic physics. Bullet dodging doesn't make you a speedster, specific bullet speed feats CAN translate into movement/combat speed unless the character is shown deficient otherwise, and Batgirl does have the best bullet dodging feat of any street leveler (excluding Cap outrunning that bullet).Batgirl wins because she's leagues faster, way more skilled, and she's up against a second rate trigger happy martial artist. He's a complete tier below her in just about everything sans durability and equipment, but - as mentioned previously - Cassie isn't getting shot.
When has Cass ever demonstrated speed "leagues faster," than any top tier street? She has essentially gone shot for shot with everyone of merit that she has ever fought, from Batman and Shiva, to Nightwing and David Cain. The only character of merit she has been able to no sell in melee was Nightwing, which is something she can no longer do, and Batman did the same thing to poor 'ol Grayson around the same time. Is she faster than Frank? Yes. Is she fast enough to completely avoid his every attack? No.
Originally posted by Deadline
^ In fact hes had no problem hitting people faster than her.
Lady Shiva fights Batman twice for a few pages without a single win, and she is the best ever. Punisher fights Daredevil half a dozen + times for the better part of an issue, with wins under his belt and he is a "a second rate trigger happy martial artist."
Originally posted by Konton
I don't get why you guys are spending page after page debating comic physics. Bullet dodging doesn't make you a speedster, specific bullet speed feats CAN translate into movement/combat speed unless the character is shown deficient otherwise, and Batgirl does have the best bullet dodging feat of any street leveler (excluding Cap outrunning that bullet).Batgirl wins because she's leagues faster, way more skilled, and she's up against a second rate trigger happy martial artist. He's a complete tier below her in just about everything sans durability and equipment, but - as mentioned previously - Cassie isn't getting shot.
Gambit has better speed feats.
