Bat Girl (cassie) vs Punisher

By the way anybody who doesn't know who Tiger Shark is.
http://marvel.wikia.com/Todd_Arliss_(Earth-616)

Superhuman Strength: Tiger Shark possesses great physical strength that varies greatly depending upon the amount of time he spends out of water. His strength is sufficient enough to engage Namor in direct physical combat. While wet, Tiger Shark possesses sufficient superhuman strength to lift up to 75 tons. When dry, however, his strength is significantly less and can lift about 50 tons. The least amount of weight Tiger Shark has been able to lift is about 40 tons, but only after being dry for an extended period of time.

Superhuman Speed: While on land, and wet, Tiger Shark is capable of running and moving at speeds greater than even the finest human athlete.

Superhuman Stamina: While wet, Tiger Shark's musculature produces considerably less fatigue toxins during physical activity. His musculature also generates far less fatigue toxins than the vast majority of Atlanteans, who all possess some level of superhuman stamina. He can exert himself at peak capacity for about 24 hours before fatigue begins to impair him.

Superhuman Durability: While wet, Tiger Shark's body is considerably harder and more resistant than the body of an ordinary human, or most Atlanteans for that matter. He is capable of withstanding the extreme temperature and pressures of the ocean floor, powerful impact forces, high caliber bullets, and falls from great heights without sustaining injury.

We can also assume hes faster underwater.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
When has Cass ever demonstrated speed "leagues faster," than any top tier street?

The 'dodge in front of bullets on purpose' thing? It's one of the craziest speed feats of any streetleveler. While the weirdness of dodging bullets has been pointed out, it's still the case Cassandra has the highest example of it.

She's also thrown hits so fast Batman doesn't see them, and generally has an edge against all of her 'peak human' foes in speed.

The only character of merit she has been able to no sell in melee was Nightwing,

And Ravager. And she overwhelmed Black Canary pretty quickly in sparing when she got serious (though admittedly Canary was expecting more of a friendly spar).

Also Slade didn't manage a single good hit on her until about the third time they fought. First time, all wiffs. Second time, she lost an ear-thingy and had holes in her cape. Third time, he hit her once.

Batman did the same thing to poor 'ol Grayson around the same time.

Batman no-sold Grayson *right* before RIP? Because he was only able to hold his own against her at that time.

Is she fast enough to completely avoid his every attack? No.

Evasion is also her specialty compared to street levelers of near-equal level. It is her strong suit when placed next to people like Batman and Shiva and Deathstroke.

Also, one or two bullets aren't going to stop her. Fighting with a bullet wound was literally part of her training.

Her damage soak is high, but also quite importantly, she's harder to hit than people like Daredevil, for a couple reasons. Like, for one, she's a smaller target by a foot or so, and she's also got lower mass which means it's easier to change direction faster. Target cross-section and momentum, simple physics favor her significantly in those areas.

Lady Shiva fights Batman twice for a few pages without a single win, and she is the best ever.

Let's not forget Batman almost aways has aid or some other advantage, and she is better than people like Bronze Tiger, who do have a winning record against Batman.

Heck, she has a win record against Shadowdragon, a Superman foe.

Originally posted by Silent Master
He's a street level character that has bullet dodging feats....and Konton claimed that Batgirl had the best BD feats.

Gambit has well established metahuman agility.

He's still street level...which means BG doesn't have the best bullet-dodging feat.

He isn't street level. He's a metahuman.

Who is street level.

Gambit.

Punisher seems like he should win this. Guns beat Martial arts any day. Especially when Punisher can take out people like Dare Devil.

Originally posted by Silent Master
He's still street level...which means BG doesn't have the best bullet-dodging feat.

So she, at worse, has one of the two best bullet-dodging feats? The other by a known metahuman-level type?

Not a bad argument for supporting Cass.

Originally posted by Comics Cavalade
Punisher seems like he should win this. Guns beat Martial arts any day.

Not in comics!

Originally posted by Q99
She's also thrown hits so fast Batman doesn't see them, and generally has an edge against all of her 'peak human' foes in speed.

She damaged Batman internally without him noticing during a sparing match. Saying she's "thrown hits so fast Batman doesn't see them," just isn't true.

Originally posted by Q99
And Ravager. And she overwhelmed Black Canary pretty quickly in sparing when she got serious (though admittedly Canary was expecting more of a friendly spar).

Ravanger was stalemating Cass until she go distracted by Slade, and that was before the bulk of Roses' training started.

Sparing matches are irrelevant. Tim Drake has beat Shiva in a sparing match.

Originally posted by Q99
Also Slade didn't manage a single good hit on her until about the third time they fought. First time, all wiffs. Second time, she lost an ear-thingy and had holes in her cape. Third time, he hit her once.

Slade wasn't trying to land a good hit, he was toying with her, we've never seen Slade fight with Cass were he actually intended to beat her in a physical confrontation. The closest was during Titan's East shortly after Cass was fried of Slade's mind control and he pinned her to the ground in few panels and Jericho intervened to save her.

Originally posted by Q99
Batman no-sold Grayson *right* before RIP? Because he was only able to hold his own against her at that time.

Dick went shot for shot with Cass until Alfred showed up before BFTC.

Originally posted by Q99
Evasion is also her specialty compared to street levelers of near-equal level. It is her strong suit when placed next to people like Batman and Shiva and Deathstroke.

And yet she has gone shot for shot with both Batman and Shiva. Deathstroke has never tried to actively engage her in combat, but we knew that he toys with her and that she can't read his body movement, if he actually tried to beat her, he'd do it handily.

Originally posted by Q99
Also, one or two bullets aren't going to stop her. Fighting with a bullet wound was literally part of her training.

She was downed by a few bullets when she tried to patrol with Batman after losing her ability to read body language.

Originally posted by Q99
Her damage soak is high, but also quite importantly, she's harder to hit than people like Daredevil, for a couple reasons. Like, for one, she's a smaller target by a foot or so, and she's also got lower mass which means it's easier to change direction faster. Target cross-section and momentum, simple physics favor her significantly in those areas.

Cass get's tagged when fighting top tier streets. She avoids no body thugs. Same as every other street level martial artist.

Originally posted by Q99
Let's not forget Batman almost aways has aid or some other advantage, and she is better than people like Bronze Tiger, who do have a winning record against Batman.

Shiva has a win over a mind controlled BT (Tigerhead mask LoA BT was brain washed), if we are going to count that then I guess we need to count Batman one shot'ing Shiva in Superman/Batman? There is very little evidence to support Shiva being superior to Bronze Tiger.

Originally posted by Q99
Heck, she has a win record against Shadowdragon, a Superman foe.

Superman either jobbed to Shadowdragon, or Shadowdargon jobbed to Shiva. There isn't an option where Shadowdragon is a threat to Superman and melee, and yet Shiva can beat him.

She damaged Batman internally without him noticing during a sparing match. Saying she's "thrown hits so fast Batman doesn't see them," just isn't true.

She got him with a hit he didn't see. That seems exactly true.

Slade wasn't trying to land a good hit, he was toying with her, we've never seen Slade fight with Cass were he actually intended to beat her in a physical confrontation.

There was no indication of that in the first matchup at all.

Ravanger was stalemating Cass until she go distracted by Slade, and that was before the bulk of Roses' training started.

Not really. Cass pounded her head into a wall in exchange for no hits. Slade even chewed her out.

Dick went shot for shot with Cass until Alfred showed up before BFTC.

But that's well after the last time he's been shown being punked by Bruce, I believe.

And yet she has gone shot for shot with both Batman and Shiva. Deathstroke has never tried to actively engage her in combat, but we knew that he toys with her and that she can't read his body movement, if he actually tried to beat her, he'd do it handily.

"We both know" = 'you make up'.

First time, he's serious. Second time, he's playing, but also has a sword held an inch from his face after being disarmed. Third time, he even comments on how she's pretty much unbeatable unless you get inside her head.

Look, this is why people say you have a double standard when it comes to DC and Marvel martial artists. You're really bending over backwards here.

She was downed by a few bullets when she tried to patrol with Batman after losing her ability to read body language.

Bullets from an assault rifle through both legs and her shoulder, and she got to the guy anyway.

Shiva has a win over a mind controlled BT (Tigerhead mask LoA BT was brain washed), if we are going to count that then I guess we need to count Batman one shot'ing Shiva in Superman/Batman? There is very little evidence to support Shiva being superior to Bronze Tiger.

How about Bronze Tiger directly calling her unbeatable in Batgirl?

Also, wasn't BT under the same mind control when he beat Batman? So that still puts Shiva above the BT that beat Batman.

The S/B mind control clearly affected villains very adversely, as tons of them jobbed and were taken down by stuff that in some cases shouldn't even hurt them (like Killer Frost being beaten by heat). Grodd was puppetting them and pretty poorly. Turner's control, less so.

Slade never fought her with any intent other than to finnish what he was doing before she interupted him. She admits he's superior. she disarmed a guy who had on intent on using his arms. whoopie. Don't even try saying in an actual fight she'd even win once out of ten. He's faster stronger smarter better more durable better armed and a better fighter. She has nothing on him.

Originally posted by long pig
Slade never fought her with any intent other than to finnish what he was doing before she interupted him. She admits he's superior. she disarmed a guy who had on intent on using his arms. whoopie. Don't even try saying in an actual fight she'd even win once out of ten. He's faster stronger smarter better more durable better armed and a better fighter. She has nothing on him.

She got quite a few on him in their first fight.

Cassandra does have skill on him (he relies very much on his enhanced reflexes to just out-stat his foes. Batman has more pure skills, probably Nightwing too, it's just Slade's pretty-good-but-much-more-super. Bronze Tiger has similarly done really well against him, and Bruce has one win, so there's precedent there), an odd brain of her own, and is more dodgey due to being, like, 1/3rd his size.

Sure, he has strength, toughness, and regen, so it's pretty much a sure thing he'd eventually wear her down if they fight it out til the end... but, let's be serious, they fight all the time and she has zero losses. Cass isn't that bad off.

Originally posted by Q99
The 'dodge in front of bullets on purpose' thing? It's one of the craziest speed feats of any streetleveler. While the weirdness of dodging bullets has been pointed out, it's still the case Cassandra has the highest example of it.

First of all your speculating, secondly it isn't superior to this.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/7329/feat42speedmw3.jpg

Considering he has his back to the bullet and isn't even expecting to get shot at it's more impressive.

Not to mention I've posted scans of Spiderman easily dodging machine gunfire with a targeting computer and him easily dodging laser fire from Sentinels. You do know that Sentinels are specifically created to hunt superhumans? So wait because Batgirl can dodge bullets from ONE handgun, from ONE guy thats more impressive than laser fire from Sentinels....ok? Hell who was that guy anyway?

Originally posted by Q99

She's also thrown hits so fast Batman doesn't see them, and generally has an edge against all of her 'peak human' foes in speed .

I think srank pointed out that was in a sparring session. Punisher has been able to get the advantage over Daredevil while having one arm injured and the only reason why DD managed to do that was because he was holding a guy over his head.

Getting the advantage over a top tier while injured in a real fight >> sparring.

Nightwing isn't peak human he did just fine.

Originally posted by Q99

And Ravager. And she overwhelmed Black Canary pretty quickly in sparing when she got serious (though admittedly Canary was expecting more of a friendly spar).
.

Punisher would stomp Black Canary and all her fight with Ravager proves is thats shes good but doesn't neccesarily get the majority.

Originally posted by Q99

Also Slade didn't manage a single good hit on her until about the third time they fought. First time, all wiffs. Second time, she lost an ear-thingy and had holes in her cape. Third time, he hit her once.
.

You do realise that in their second fight Batgirl specifically stated DS was toying with her and she had trouble reading him? Taking that into consideration and the fact he was smirking he could have well been toying with her in the first.

Originally posted by Q99

Evasion is also her specialty compared to street levelers of near-equal level. It is her strong suit when placed next to people like Batman and Shiva and Deathstroke.

LOL you haven't even proven that shes faster than the Punisher. Daredevil has better dodging feats than her and there are numerous examples of Punisher NOT having problems hitting him and hitting faster opponents.

Originally posted by Q99

Also, one or two bullets aren't going to stop her. Fighting with a bullet wound was literally part of her training.

Well thats funny Cap has better bullet taking showings than her and he still got dropped by Punisher. Wolverine has been dropped by Punisher....want me show you Wolverines showings?

Originally posted by Q99

Her damage soak is high,

If you can prove this I might give her the majority in h2h.

Originally posted by Q99

but also quite importantly, she's harder to hit than people like Daredevil, for a couple reasons. Like, for one, she's a smaller target by a foot or so, and she's also got lower mass which means it's easier to change direction faster. Target cross-section and momentum, simple physics favor her significantly in those areas .

Sorry thats a really silly argument. Wolverine is 5ft 4 and has enhanced stats, Punisher has never had trouble hitting him or shooting him..

Anyway its feats that count her dodging feats aren't more impressive than these

http://img412.imageshack.us/i/daredevilvol2009209ze.jpg/
http://img412.imageshack.us/f/daredevil335p157zw.jpg/

Don't let me have to provide context, the second scan has Bushwacker hes one of marvels top gunmen.

Originally posted by Q99

Let's not forget Batman almost aways has aid or some other advantage, and she is better than people like Bronze Tiger, who do have a winning record against Batman.

Context? He had some aid or advantage doesn't neccesarily mean he needs it to win. If you say so.

Originally posted by Q99

Heck, she has a win record against Shadowdragon, a Superman foe.

Please use some common sense, that feat was nonsense.

Originally posted by Deadline
First of all your speculating, secondly it isn't superior to this.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/7329/feat42speedmw3.jpg

Considering he has his back to the bullet and isn't even expecting to get shot at it's more impressive.[/b]

Actually it is superior, on several counts. One, she moved her entire body several body widths back and fourth, he moved his torso about half a foot (and 'his back was turned' doesn't matter much to spidey sense).

Two, you can see the normal human flail several times in the time it takes for the bullet to move.

It's not speculating, you just don't like her feats. Not much of an argument, there.

Not to mention I've posted scans of Spiderman easily dodging machine gunfire with a targeting computer and him easily dodging laser fire from Sentinels. You do know that Sentinels are specifically created to hunt superhumans? So wait because Batgirl can dodge bullets from ONE handgun, from ONE guy thats more impressive than laser fire from Sentinels....ok? Hell who was that guy anyway?

... one? Four. You aren't even looking at the scans.

Sentinel accuracy has never impressed me, normal human agility mutants dodge their shots all the time.

LOL you haven't even proven that shes faster than the Punisher. Daredevil has better dodging feats than her and there are numerous examples of Punisher NOT having problems hitting him and hitting faster opponents.

I think it was mentioned earlier to you that saying someone having better dodging feats isn't the same as demonstrating it.

Sorry thats a really silly argument. Wolverine is 5ft 4 and has enhanced stats, Punisher has never had trouble hitting him or shooting him..

Logan also weights something like 300 pounds due to his skeleton and isn't nearly as acrobatic or in possession of body-language reading.

Anyway its feats that count her dodging feats aren't more impressive than these

http://img412.imageshack.us/i/dared...l2009209ze.jpg/
http://img412.imageshack.us/f/daredevil335p157zw.jpg/

Don't let me have to provide context, the second scan has Bushwacker hes one of marvels top gunmen.

Why do you keep posting less impressive stuff like it's more impressive? Both of those he had clear warning (if brief warning). The first he didn't even avoid it completely.

Here's Cassandra dodging bullets where she's not even watching, except against a rifle, making it miss completely, when she was 8, and again as an adult with no warning. And it's not her best bullet dodging feats.

Look, I get that you like DD and Punisher. I do. I like them too, especially DD. But just saying "they're equal!" while posting stuff that's less impressive isn't good arguing.

Context? He had some aid or advantage doesn't neccesarily mean he needs it to win. If you say so.

You know, advantages like having Robin, making it two on one.

Guys, just a reminder:

Originally posted by Badabing
I'm thinking a remedial course in on KMC rules and debating sciences should be required. Because way too many people are acting contrary based on who they like and the "nuh uh" argument. The sad part is this happens too much.

also:

Originally posted by Deadline
Not a valid argument.

I could post those examples but it clearly seems that nothing I say makes a difference, people are just determined to ignore my arguments.

If you're going to be like that, then I'm not going to bother.

You are going to have to start following the rules though, regardless of whether you agree with them or not.

Disgregarding what you don't like, arguing about weak debating skills while doing the very thing you're complaining about, is only going to get you banned in the end.

Originally posted by Q99

Look, I get that you like DD and Punisher. I do. I like them too, especially DD. But just saying "they're equal!" while posting stuff that's less impressive isn't good arguing.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Marvel fans love to act like Captain America>>All DC Streets and that Daredevil>=Batman, its just sad.

It's not even that I have a problem with people think the characters would do well, but these specific examples are so much less!

"Spider-man moves his torso half a foot while a bullet was in mid air! Surely this is better than Cassandra moving her entire body into, then out of, the way of 4 bullets in a row while they're in mid-air!"

Originally posted by Q99
Actually it is superior, on several counts. One, she moved her entire body several body widths back and fourth,

Just because he didn't do that doesn't mean that the feat is superior there are other factors. When Spidey dodged the bullet was closer and he wasn't expecting it.

Originally posted by Q99

he moved his torso about half a foot

In both cases the bullet was heading for the middle of the body, in both cases they moved their body out of the way.

Originally posted by Q99

(and 'his back was turned' doesn't matter much to spidey sense).

Yes it does because eventhough he was warned he wasn't expecting to get shot, Cass waiting and ready for the bullets. Its harder to dodge something when you're not expecting the need to dodge. You can also argue that the bullet was closer to Spiderman when she dodged. Lets see the rest of the scans how close was the guy who was shooting?

Originally posted by Q99

Two, you can see the normal human flail several times in the time it takes for the bullet to move.

Just because he didn't do that doesn't mean that the feat is superior there are other factors. When Spidey dodged the bullet was closer and he wasn't expecting it.

Originally posted by Q99

... one? Four. You aren't even looking at the scans.

So I missed one bullet.

Originally posted by Q99

Sentinel accuracy has never impressed me, normal human agility mutants dodge their shots all the time.

Ok so who was firing the gun at Batgirl then, also you forgot the guy using machine gunfire with a targeting computer.

Originally posted by Q99

I think it was mentioned earlier to you that saying someone having better dodging feats isn't the same as demonstrating it.

I know but you're using these feats to argue that shes going to easily evade Punisher. Punisher has been able to evade Tiger Shark underwater, thats a guy who has superhuman speed and is even faster underwater. An unarmed Punisher has managed to disarm Deadpool. Is that good enough?

Originally posted by Q99

Logan also weights something like 300 pounds due to his skeleton and isn't nearly as acrobatic

Are you really arguing that 100 or so pounds is going to make a difference? Actually hes got really good arcobatic showings.

Originally posted by Q99

or in possession of body-language reading.

Could you please stop arguing that because she has body reading it gives her an advantage. Taskmaster has body reading but DD has stalemated and beaten him in h2h. Just because she has a specific attribute doesn't mean she wins or has an advantage.

Originally posted by Q99

Why do you keep posting less impressive stuff like it's more impressive? Both of those he had clear warning (if brief warning). The first he didn't even avoid it completely.

Q Did you not see in the first scan that DD was having a conversation with somebody and was not expecting to get shot at?

The second scan:
1. That is Bushwacker. Hes not just some guy hes one of marvel best shooters hes shot people with superhuman speed. How skillful are your shooters, what feats do they have?
2. Did you not notice that he not only dodged it he batted the bullet and purposely redirected it. Don't you think its logical to assume that is more impressive than dodging a bullet?

Originally posted by Q99

Here's Cassandra dodging bullets where she's not even watching, except against a rifle, making it miss completely, when she was 8, and again as an adult with no warning. And it's not her best bullet dodging feats.

Just because she was dodging bullets at 8 doesn't make her a better bullet dodger. Thor has 1000s of years fighting experience and isn't more skilled than Cap.

If she didn't have a warning how did she dodge it? You can't dodge something if you don't even know that its coming. She doesn't have a radar sense or spider sense but she obvoulsy has some sense that enables her to do it. Considering that there are numerous refernces to martial artists (including Batman) detecting pressure waves of lasers and bullets that is the most obvious conclusion.

Obvoulsy in both cases she sensed the bullet. As I already stated she was waiting and prepared for the bullet in one example, DD was not prepared and was having a conversation. In the second example she wasn't prepared but she obvoulsy sensed it but thats not as impressive as batting a bullet and re-directing it.

Originally posted by Q99

Look, I get that you like DD and Punisher. I do. I like them too, especially DD. But just saying "they're equal!" while posting stuff that's less impressive isn't good arguing..

Not the case at all.

Originally posted by Q99

You know, advantages like having Robin, making it two on one.

Missing the point, that doesn't mean he would have lost if Robin wasn't there.