Bat Girl (cassie) vs Punisher

Originally posted by namorsubby
I'm not using Batgirl at her best. She easily evades all types of weaponry on average showings.

Thats faulty logic just because shes evaded all types of weaponry doesn't mean she can dodge Punisher, thats like saying because shes beaten some martial art she can beat Captain America or hell Mandarin. It obvoulsy depends on how good the shooters are.

Originally posted by namorsubby

She also outmanuevers much faster opponents.

Being faster doesn't neccesarily make the opponent more dangerous (there are other factors) and I could say the samething about Punisher.

Originally posted by namorsubby

show me where DD has used nerve shots on pun and has failed to drop him? Because i've seen dd drop a 50 class with one, and that indeed would be "rather sad"

Here.

Originally posted by Deadline
Fourth encounter that DD has with Punisher. Punisher didn’t actually lose the fight and let DD win. First heres the fight.

Ok heres the proof that Punisher let him win.

[B]Note: DD took advantage that Punisher was lifting a man over his head and pressure pointed him. Despite this Punisher managed to hurt DD badly enough that he had to stop fighting briefly and was actually doing better than DD was before he decided to lose. [/B]

and here.

http://img233.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=85269_frank6_122_108lo.jpg

That fight goes on for about four more pages.

Originally posted by Deadline
Thats faulty logic just because shes evaded all types of weaponry doesn't mean she can dodge Punisher, thats like saying because shes beaten some martial art she can beat Captain America or hell Mandarin. It obvoulsy depends on how good the shooters are.

Yes, and David Cain and Deathstroke are really good shooters. We aren't talking bush league here, Cain taught Deadshot how to shoot and Slade is superhuman.

She'd have a pretty good shot against Capt, assuming no shield.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, and David Cain and Deathstroke are really good shooters. We aren't talking bush league here, Cain taught Deadshot how to shoot and Slade is superhuman.

She'd have a pretty good shot against Capt, assuming no shield.

They don't have the feats that Frank has, Cain taught Deadshot to shoot, he isn't Deadshot. They're very good but not as good.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, she has an altered brain chemistry from growing up in a bunker being trained to think in martial arts from birth, giving her superhuman coordination that lets her pull off attacks that are mentally impossible for a normal person, to read people's body to know what they're going to do before they do it, and as a result of the later picks up martial arts as fast as Taskmaster does, which she uses to modify and improve her own style.

*sigh* That doesn't prove she wins I could say the samething about Daredevil, Kraven, Daken and Deadpool.

Please prove shes better than Daredevil, Aloysha Kravinoff, Daken and Deadpool. She maybe more skilled but these guys are highly skilled and enhanced.

Originally posted by Q99
I will note that her dad has pretty much the same MO as Frank, and Deathstroke has never scored a win on her. Head to head, he's tried to shoot her plenty without it working, and he's superhuman. Heck, David Cain trained her by shooting at her head with a sniper rifle while blindfolded (her blindfolded, not him).

Those guys don't have the showings that Frank has with a gun. Daredevil and Spiderman can dodge gunfire blindfolded, they still got shot by Punisher.

Originally posted by Q99

I mean, maybe if Frank has prep, he's a lot more dangerous with it, but strait fight? Nah, it's hard enough to hit her in melee, but guns point to where they fire before they do to boot.

Absolutely. I mean Frank has had no problems hitting other superhuman martial artists in a melee but clearly Batgirl is faster.

Originally posted by Q99

She also has a tendency to not be too hindered by bullet wounds when she gets them due to being unable to dodge or tanking shots for civilians. Another one of her training exercises involved her being shot in the back, and then having to dodge Cain's gunfire and get into hand to hand. When she was 8.

I could say the samething about some of the people Pun has shot, that can be different if its point blank.

Originally posted by Q99
Plus there's the 'bullet dance' thing she does, where four people fired at her at once, and she purposefully dodged *into* the line of fire of each one before avoiding the bullet... here.

Yes that proves she better at dodging bullets than Daredevil, Spiderman, Wolverine.....and Sabretooth.

Batgirl > Sabretooth?

Here's some on her physical stats. Metahuman scientists assume she has superhuman speed *and* strength 🙂

Originally posted by Deadline
They don't have the feats that Frank has, Cain taught Deadshot to shoot, he isn't Deadshot. They're very good but not as good.

True, which just means Frank maybe has a shot at getting a shot; they've never actually scored a hit on her without surprise.

They're also much better than Frank in melee, especially Slade.

*sigh* That doesn't prove she wins I could say the samething about Daredevil, Kraven, Daken and Deadpool.

No, you really couldn't. Those are specific abilities that she has and they don't.

They may have other advantages, but the 'mentally impossible coordination' thing, 'move reading' thing, and 'Taskmaster-style copying' thing are all things they don't have.

Please prove shes better than Daredevil, Aloysha Kravinoff, Daken and Deadpool. She maybe more skilled but these guys are highly skilled and enhanced.

It's hard to "prove" it when they're in different universes. She is the best hand to hand fighter in modern DC Earth, though. Better than Batman or Bronze Tiger or even Shiva.

Also, don't those guys beat Frank fairly often? Heck, Daken killed him.

Yes that proves she better at dodging bullets than Daredevil, Spiderman, Wolverine.....and Sabretooth.

Batgirl > Sabretooth.

At dodging bullets? Heck yea. Sabertooth's much more overall powerful but he'll take bullets and keep coming, not dance around them.

Here is Cass dodging bullets. These were all fired at roughly the same time in the previous panel. Note how she's dodging into their path. On purpose. Because it's fun.

I don't think you'll find even the likes of Daredevil with a speed feat like that.

Originally posted by Q99
Here's some on her physical stats. Metahuman scientists assume she has superhuman speed *and* strength 🙂

Wheres the rest of the scan that provides context and explains she doesn't have superhuman stats? She obvously doesn't have superhuman stats shes not stronger than Batman for starters, hell according to that scan shes equal or superior to Deathstroke in stats she isn't.

Originally posted by Deadline
Wheres the rest of the scan that provides context and explains she doesn't have superhuman stats?

Like I said, they "assume" it 🙂

The real deal is she has mentally impossible coordination that puts her aggregate stats in the super human range, even though they are individually peak human. Causing them to assume cybernetics...

I'm not trying to trick you, the point is she has "I can't believe it's not metahuman!" stats effectively due to the way her brain works.

(here's a page in between, just for completionism. Unusual body chemistry, mostly complaining about how the scientist thinks she's a fake)

Originally posted by Deadline
Thats faulty logic just because shes evaded all types of weaponry doesn't mean she can dodge Punisher, thats like saying because shes beaten some martial art she can beat Captain America or hell Mandarin. It obvoulsy depends on how good the shooters are.

she dodges sniper rifle fire and bullets that are shot 2 or so inches from her face. Suffice it to say, it doesn't really matter how good the marksman is.

Originally posted by Q99
Like I said, they "assume" it 🙂

The real deal is she has mentally impossible coordination that puts her aggregate stats in the super human range, even though they are individually peak human.

Look they're simply playing with words. Shes not superhuman you can clearly see that from her feats in general. They said her indivdual moves weren't superhuman and that shit could apply to any another peak street leveler.

Originally posted by marwash22
not really.

she dodges sniper rifle fire and bullets that are shot 2 or so inches from her face. Suffice it to say, it doesn't really matter how good the marksman is.

*sigh* Spiderman, Daredevil, and Sabretooth can do that shit as well.

they've done this?:

http://img239.imageshack.us/i/batgirl017179ax.jpg/
http://img239.imageshack.us/i/batgirl017180dn.jpg/

She is technically human, but her feats say otherwise. Dodging bullets from a gun that was basically pressed against your head... that's not something a human can accomplish.

Also, since you keep bringing up Spiderman, DD, etc. can you post a scan or two of Punisher shooting them.

Here is her eyes-closed sniper training as a child.

Originally posted by Deadline
Look they're simply playing with words. Shes not superhuman you can clearly see that from her feats in general. They said her indivdual moves weren't superhuman and that shit could apply to any another peak street leveler.

They said that such coordination was mentally impossible because the brain isn't capable of focusing on multiple things like that.

So no, it specifically couldn't. Not without an altered brain.

And her feats are really crazy, even by peak street leveler standards.

*sigh* Spiderman, Daredevil, and Sabretooth can do that shit as well.

I haven't seen them do that.

Dodge individual bullets, sure. Dodge into the way of multiple bullets in a row for fun, no.

Don't just assume Daredevil or such can do equal.

Also don't forget that more than *just* reflexes, she also has move reading. Of the ones listed only Spider-man has something to let him know before they're fired in a similar fashion.

I don't think she was dodging them for fun, I think dodging one bullet put her in the path of the next, dodging that bullet then put her in the next one's patch etc.

IIRC, there was no dialogue or narration stating that she was purposely putting herself in the path of the bullets.

Originally posted by marwash22
they've done this?:

http://img239.imageshack.us/i/batgirl017179ax.jpg/
http://img239.imageshack.us/i/batgirl017180dn.jpg/

She is technically human, but her feats say otherwise. Dodging bullets from a gun that was basically pressed against your head... that's not something a human can accomplish.

LOL Punisher just did a feat comparable to that recently. Is that it?

You also don't know for sure she moved exactly after they were fired.

Originally posted by marwash22

Also, since you keep bringing up Spiderman, DD, etc. can you post a scan or two of Punisher shooting them.

Go to the capability thread.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=527917&pagenumber=1

Originally posted by Deadline
LOL Punisher just did a feat comparable to that recently. Is that it?

Also, we weren't talking about Punisher. You kept bringing up the people he has shot... show me one of those characters dodging bullets in the fashion Cass did in those scans.

Originally posted by Silent Master
I don't think she was dodging them for fun, I think dodging one bullet put her in the path of the next, dodging that bullet then put her in the next one's patch etc.

IIRC, there was no dialogue or narration stating that she was purposely putting herself in the path of the bullets.

No, but she was just standing there waiting for them to shoot, not moving until they fire, with a smile on her face, and she's ducking down to get in the way of the last!

She knew the aim of all of them before the trigger was pulled, Cassandra pretty clearly didn't *have* to do it that way 🙂

Originally posted by marwash22
scan? issue?

Also, we weren't talking about Punisher. You kept bringing up the people he has shot... show me one of those characters dodging bullets in the fashion Cass did in those scans.

Punisher In the Blood #3. Yea but Punisher is slower than the peoples hes shot, how does that help your case? Stop trying to wriggle out of it.

Its not just about getting shot its h2h as well.

Originally posted by Q99
No, but she was just standing there waiting for them to shoot, not moving until they fire, with a smile on her face, and she's ducking down to get in the way of the last!

She knew the aim of all of them before the trigger was pulled, Cassandra pretty clearly didn't *have* to do it that way 🙂

OMIGODZ WOWWWWW!!!1111 BATGIRL FOR THE WINORZZZZ.

No mate she didn't duck intot the path of last bullet, now you're making stuff up. I'm not sure if I should even bother if you really consider that evidence.

You mean this?

http://media.photobucket.com/image/Batgirl%20bullet%20dodging/SaintSaturn/Batgirl13pg03.jpg

Originally posted by Q99
No, but she was just standing there waiting for them to shoot, not moving until they fire, with a smile on her face, and she's ducking down to get in the way of the last!

She knew the aim of all of them before the trigger was pulled, Cassandra pretty clearly didn't *have* to do it that way 🙂

Her smiling isn't proof that she was actually purposely putting herself into the bullets path just for fun

Now, if you have something from the book itself that states this, or even an interview with the writer....I'd accept that as proof.

^ They're basically posting scans of feats that any other street leveler could do. It's a joke. Amateur night.

...and you're basically saying "nuh-uh". If every other street level character can do it, prove it. This is the second time I'm asking you to stop talking out of your ass and post a scan of one of the characters you've mentioned pulling off one the feats she has. After you do that, prove the same character is on par with Cass in terms of MA skill... if you can't or refuse to do that, we have nothing further to discuss 'cause hearing "Frank wins, 'cause... Frank wins", is lame.

Originally posted by marwash22
...and you're basically saying "nuh-uh". If every other street level character can do it, prove it.

Thats like getting into a debate with me about Basketball and asking me to prove that Kobe Bryant has skillz. If you don't know you shouldn't even be debating. Here let me help you..

Marvel directory thread.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=487846&pagenumber=1

Originally posted by marwash22
This is the second time I'm asking you to stop talking out of your ass and post a scan of one of the characters you've mentioned pulling off one the feats she has.

You also asked for an issue number and I gave it to you.

Originally posted by marwash22
After you do that, prove the same character is on par with Cass in terms of MA skill... if you can't or refuse to do that, we have nothing further to discuss 'cause hearing "Frank wins, 'cause... Frank wins", is lame.

Maybe but the problem is your so ignorant of comics I'm astounded. You think that by posting scans of Batgirl dodging bullets by random badguys proves something. It's not that I can't provide evidence its just you don't even know the basics. As far as I'm concerned you should go to the Daredevil and Spiderman respect threads and educate yourself.

cool story, bro.

deuces.