Frieza vs planets of superhumans

Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, OFFICIAL CANON: 100% Final Form Frieza: 120,000,000. SSJ Goku on Namek: 150,000,000. These are the official figures. OOOOOFFFFFIIIIICCCCCCIIIIAAAAAALLLL. Is that clear enough for you?

But I, for one, have NEVER seen figures that high for Frieza. That's why I need to see this official end all/be all evidence before I'll believe what you are saying. No offense intended.

Originally posted by Galan007
Can you post this official source, please?

Not only have the scans been posted on the internet for quite some time...they've been posted on KMC before, as well.

I have a hard time making any effort to Google search for you the official power levels listed in the Daizenshuus when you could have done it yourself. This, I think, is why people are growing tired of our conversations.

Originally posted by Galan007
Because if the source in question IS official,

It definitely is.

Also, you don't even need the official Daizenshuu listings to know that Frieza was definitely over 100,000,000 based on simple percentages.

Originally posted by Galan007
and DOES say that full power Frieza's PL was 120,000,000, then it would certainly clear up the confusion on all ends.

There's no confusion on this end.

Originally posted by Galan007
But I, for one, have NEVER seen figures that high for Frieza.

Because you're using the late 90s early 2000s American fan site listing: none of which are accurate or even match up, mathematically, with: the manga, anime, and official Daizenshuu 7 listing.

Originally posted by Galan007
That's why I need to see this official end all/be all evidence before I'll believe what you are saying. No offense intended.

Really? You'll give this up, entirely, because all of your points hinged on very low power level ratings?

Cool. I am convinced now to look it up for you:

http://www.kanzentai.com/bp.php?id=guide

And here's where the misconception about the power levels began (it's explained quite well):

Note
This puts 50% Freeza as twice as strong as Goku using the Kaio-ken x10, and equal to Goku with Kaio-ken x20. Goku says in the manga that his Kaio-ken x20 attack hardly damaged Freeza.

Daizenshuu 7's battle powers for both Freeza's full power and Super Saiyan Goku are commonly said to be only 12 and 15 million, respectively, while normal Goku is given as 300,000 and Freeza at 50% as 6 million. This misconception most likely traces back to the Ultimate DBZ Information Site, a very influential English DragonBall fan site in the 90s that was run by Greg Werner. On the "Little Known Dragon Ball Z Facts" page, item 26 provides a list of all battle powers from the manga or daizenshuu, and it gives these numbers for Goku and Freeza.

Werner prided himself on creating all of his site's content, and much of his site consisted of things he took from Daizenshuu 7, so it's unlikely that he relied on someone else to make his list. Countless other fan sites relied on Werner's site for information (and often flat-out stole his content), so this mistranslation spread throughout the English-speaking DragonBall fan community. In particular, the popular site Planet Namek also used 12 and 15 million in their power levels list, color-coding them as being from the daizenshuu. It is possible that SkullMac, the man responsible for maintaining Planet Namek's power list, made the same translation mistake as Werner, but it's more likely that he relied upon Werner's site for these numbers.

At any rate, how would someone mistranslate these numbers? Well, this is the way those battle powers are written in Daizenshuu 7:

Goku: 300万
Super Saiyan Goku: 1億5000万
Freeza 50%: 6000万
Freeza 100%: 1 億2000万

"万" (man) is the kanji for 10 thousand, while "億" (oku) represents 100 million. So if you do the math, "300 man" is 3 million and "1 oku, 5 thousand man" is 150 million. But it's easy to see how someone not too experienced with the Japanese number system could make a mistake converting them, especially since all the previous battle powers in this section of Daizenshuu 7 are written purely in Arabic numerals, with no kanji or mathematical conversion required. For additional information on the Japanese number system, view the "Battle Powers in the manga" page.

Cool beans. I didn't realize their PL's were so high. 👆

Still dont believe a 3-Namek fusion would have that level of power, though -- even if they had the chance to do so here (which they likely wouldn't.) But I appreciate the scan nonetheless.

So what is being argued?

That when Namekians fuse, their power levels multiply with eachother's?

Personally I just have a hard time believing that Piccolo's PL would have jumped from < 2,000,000 to upwards of 120,000,000 just by fusing with an additional no name Namek after he'd already fused with Nail. That's more than a 60x increase in power.

Originally posted by Galan007
Cool beans. I didn't realize their PL's were so high. 👆

Still dont believe a 3-Namek fusion would have that level of power, though -- even if they had the chance to do so here (which they likely wouldn't.) But I appreciate the scan nonetheless.

We agree, there, that 3 fusions would not get completed in time.

I'm under the assumption that Frieza has a scouter. One fusion would cause Frieza's scouter to go haywire.

Originally posted by Galan007
Personally I just have a hard time believing that Piccolo's PL would have jumped from < 2,000,000 to upwards of 120,000,000 just by fusing with an additional no name Namek after he'd already fused with Nail. That's more than a 60x increase in power.

There were several other Namekians that were around 3000.

If Nail, who was stronger than Piccolo when they fused, fused with some of the other more powerful Namekians (the ones in the 3000s), they would be a good boost...but not as high as the fusion with Nail and Piccolo.

Again, Piccolo was only on King Kai's planet for just a few days. Goku trained on King Kai's planet for 152 days and only went from 460 to 8000. Piccolo did not have nearly enough time to train to make a large power boost, even if you consider it a ratio rather than a time linear/gradual power boost.

If we do it by a ratio, Goku's power increased 17.39 times over, over the course of 152 days. Divide each day by 17.39 to come up with the power increase factor that each day gave him: .11.

So apply that to the 5 days Piccolo stayed on King Kai's planet:

His power level jumps up to 5898, not 20,000.

So even if I get generous and apply a power leveling ratio instead of just an arbitrary number, it still does not make Piccolo anywhere near 20,000 in power level.

I like the 20,000 number, though, because it allows for a power boost while traveling on Snake Road in addition to working on King Kai's planet with the Z-Warriors. I say this because Goku didn't just train with speed and martial arts: he also spent some time training for the Kaio Ken and Spirit Bomb. How much? Well, the manga clearly shows Goku fighting hand to hand with King Kai towards the very end of his training in a "collage" towards the very end of his stay, so it doesn't appear that Goku relented much on doing anything but hard training with King Kai.

So, really, I should relent and say that Piccolo's power was probably closer to 10,000 rather than 20,000 when he left King Kai's planet...assuming Piccolo trained harder than Goku for only the 5 days that he was there.

Knowing that...and knowing that his power jumped from 10,000-20,000 all the way to around 1,000,000 after merging with Nail, that's a giant power increase from 50-100 times. Permanent fusion is supposed to be stronger than the fusion dance and the fusion dance greatly increases the power beyond just the simple addition of each person's power (meaning, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.) So it should be no wonder than Namekian fusion is a giant boost in power. This would also explain why Piccolo's power increased 50-100 fold when he fused with Kami: he went from being in the low single digit millions to definitely stronger than any regular SSJ.

Originally posted by dadudemon
We agree, there, that 3 fusions would not get completed in time.

I'm under the assumption that Frieza has a scouter. One fusion would cause Frieza's scouter to go haywire.

Originally posted by dadudemon
So it should be no wonder than Namekian fusion is a giant boost in power. This would also explain why Piccolo's power increased 50-100 fold when he fused with Kami: he went from being in the low single digit millions to definitely stronger than any regular SSJ.

And you may disagree (probably will 😛) but I don't really like to count Kami/Piccolo's merger (or re-merger) as a 'standard' Namekian fusion. Imo, it was made pretty clear during the Cell saga that the powerup Piccolo gained upon fusing back with Kami was significantly above any other boosts he had gained before, or could gain otherwise.

Oh, and I'd also like to retract a previous comment I made. 'Kamiccolo' was -not- more powerful than 17, and -not- equal to 16 (just read through that saga again.)

Base form Cell (not at full power) <[slightly] Kamiccolo = 17 < 16 = Base form Cell (at full power).

About Piccolo's PL, when he got to Namek I was under the impression he was a lot stronger than the 10,000 range, since when Nail saw him he was amazed by his power and compared him to the old school Namekian warriors who he took after.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
About Piccolo's PL, when he got to Namek I was under the impression he was a lot stronger than the 10,000 range, since when Nail saw him he was amazed by his power and compared him to the old school Namekian warriors who he took after.

Nail commented on Piccolo being strong and said he was impressed.

http://www.mangareader.net/105-2944-1/dragon-ball/chapter-295.html

Nail was trained in the "secret" arts of Namekian warriors and this may be why Nail is impressed with Piccolo- a Piccolo who had got that strong without having gotten the specialized Namekian training. Nail also sees, almost immediately, that he is a split Namekian. Nail just is dang smart and was paying Piccolo a compliment.

His actual power cannot be higher than 10,000 when he got to Namek, based on numbers. We can give him a boost, just to be nice and that would put him closer to 20,000.

Think about it...Goku jumped from 8000 to 90,000 on his 6 day trip to Namek. He did so by pushing himself to the brink of death and eating a senzu bean 4 times. There's no way that Piccolo could have increased his power by a much larger margin than Goku did in only 5 days on King Kai's planet which only had 10 times Earth's gravity. Not only that but Goku had a higher starting level than Piccolo did: Piccolo had a power of 3500 at his death.

Namekians do not possess the same "stronger after a near-death experience" ability that Saiyan's have. So not only could his 5 day training on King Kai's planet being very marginal, they wouldn't have boosted him very much.

Also, Piccolo noticed all of the others but they did not notice his power, meaning, he wasn't strong enough to register from that far away while they were distracted.

When Nail met Piccolo he was "impressed" by his power, and also noted that he was "VERY strong". And considering Nail himself had a PL of 42,000 -and- he'd just battled base form Frieza who had a PL of 530,000, it seems to me that the intention was to have Piccolo at least on Nail's level (if not beyond). Personally, I don't think Nail would have claimed that a power not even half at large as his own was "VERY strong", but that's just me. /shrug

Regardless, since nothing was explicitly stated pertaining to Piccolo's PL pre-Nail-fusion, there's really no way to know where he was numerically. It's really just a guess on all sides.

Originally posted by Galan007
When Nail met Piccolo he was "impressed" by his power, and also noted that he was "VERY strong". And considering Nail himself had a PL of 42,000 -and- he'd just battled base form Frieza who had a PL of 530,000, it seems to me that the intention was to have Piccolo at least on Nail's level (if not beyond). Personally, I don't think Nail would have claimed that a power not even half at large as his own was "VERY strong", but that's just me. /shrug

He also did not say that Piccolo was stronger than himself. He also said, very clearly, that he wasn't strong enough to defeat Frieza.

Also, Piccolo was not at Nail's level. Unless you're suggesting that he has an ability to gain power faster than a Saiyan brought to near death 4 times in a row.

Originally posted by Galan007
Regardless, since nothing was explicitly stated pertaining to Piccolo's PL pre-Nail-fusion, there's really no way to know where he was numerically. It's really just a guess on all sides.

No, we can guess within a few thousand of where he was, numerically.

Here's a more logical explanation for why Nail was impressed with his power:

"Nail was trained in the 'secret' arts of Namekian warriors and this may be why Nail is impressed with Piccolo- a Piccolo who had got that strong without having gotten the specialized Namekian training.

Namekians do not possess the same "stronger after a near-death experience" ability that Saiyan's have. So not only could his 5 day training on King Kai's planet being very marginal, they wouldn't have boosted him very much."

If you go by a logical numeric measure, Piccolo is somewhere between 3500 and 10,000. If you want to get generous, you can give him 20,000.

Since 20,000 works out, much more nicely, to give him a power much higher, but not gigantically higher, than SSJ Goku (when Goku fought Frieza), then we see that 20,000 works out quite well.

Again, no one on Namek was a warrior class except for Nail. The others, at best, were in the 3000-400 range. Piccolo is also MUCH younger than most of them: he's only 10-11 years old when he gets to Namek. Having obtained, even though he's a warrior class, a power of anything over 3000, would be an amazing accomplishment.

Additionally, by you logic, if someone compliments another on them being strong, that makes them stronger than the one paying the compliment. That's not the case, at all. Goku pretty much tells everyone that they are strong in one way or another: it's more of a respect thing.

Correction: Piccolo was 9 when he fought Frieza. He was 3 when he fought Goku in the Dragonball Tournie. 5 years passed between the tournie and the Radditz fight. Another year passed after that when they fought Nappa and Vegeta and only a couple of months pass after that before he fighst Frieza...so he was only 9.

You're adding more to my post than what I said. I didn't say Piccolo "was" or "had to have been" on Nail's level. I simply gave my opinion, based on how -I- took Nail's statement(s) in that scene... Same as you're doing. So unless you know of an official source which explicitly says "Piccolo's power level when he first arrived on Namek = X", all we really can do is speculate on the matter. My opinion is no more correct/incorrect than yours.

No reason to start getting defensive. 🙂

Originally posted by Galan007
You're adding more to my post than what I said. I didn't say Piccolo "was" or "had to have been" on Nail's level. I simply gave my opinion, based on how -I- took Nail's statement(s) in that scene... Same as you're doing. So unless you know of an official source which explicitly says "Piccolo's power level when he first arrived on Namek = X", all we really can do is speculate on the matter. My opinion is no more correct/incorrect than yours.

No, that's wrong. There are actually correct ways to go about coming up with estimations that would be very close.

There's no way that Piccolo could have gotten even remotely as powerful as Goku did during his (Piccolo's) visit to the Kai's planet. That puts him far less than 80,000 because that's where Goku was.

We know he died at 3500 against Nappa.

So that puts him at least above 3500.

That's an exact range that he has to fall under: that's not some sort of baseless guess.

In order for Piccolo to be anywhere close to 20,000 after only 5 days of King Kai planet training, he would have had to have experienced one "Saiyan Near Death and recovery" experience because Vegeta went from 18,000 to 24,000 and those were exact numbers. We know that it is impossible for Namekians to do that: they do not have the Saiyan recovery "trick."

Additionally, we know how much time Goku spent on King Kai's planet and how much his power grew. Doing linear growth netted a very small power increase. Even doing a ratio growth for Piccolo still netted a small power increase.

That's neither baseless nor is it wrong: they are two estimations based on facts we know. Baseless would be guessing how strong Goku was in FPSSJ mode. Even then, that's still not a completely baseless guess as we do have a base with which to make guesses on.

Hmmm....Ah, here we go: baseless would be assigning Cell a power level when he FIRST emerged.

Anyway, I do admit that 20,000 is arbitrary as all logic and math points to a value of less than 10,000. It's baseless for me to assign him a power of 20,000, actually. I should just drop it to between 5000 and 10,000 as that would not be baseless and would capture his range perfectly.

Originally posted by Galan007
No reason to start getting defensive. 🙂

There's a difference between trying to talk reason into someone and getting defensive.

^ Again, that is all just your opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

My opinion, based on Nail's statement(s) regarding Piccolo's power, is that Toriyama intended he [Piccolo] to be more powerful than you're giving him credit for when he first arrived on Namek (hence Nail's "you're VERY strong" comment). But again, that is just the impression I personally got from the scene. Nothing more, nothing less.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Again, that is all just your opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

No, it's not. I outlined which portions were opinion and which ones could not be opinion.

Originally posted by Galan007
My opinion, based on Nail's statement(s) regarding Piccolo's power, is that Toriyama intended he [Piccolo] to be more powerful than you're giving him credit for when he first arrived on Namek (hence Nail's "you're VERY strong" comment). But again, that is just the impression I personally got from the scene. Nothing more, nothing less.

Spoiler:
But that's impossible because Piccolo:

1. Does not have the Saiyan recovery ability.
2. Only got to train on King Kai's planet for 5 days.

So, no, it is impossible and it is a fact that Piccolo is no where near Goku's level of power of 80,000.

Also, Goku told Uub that he was very strong...but Goku could have EASILY mopped the floor with him: like I said, it's a form of respect and a compliment. Also, Nail could have been relieved that someone strong came around that he could merge with because he was the strongest Namekian on the planet Namek and no one came even close to his power so he was probably relieved that someone over 5000 in power found him so he could merge with them to get revenge on Frieza...which that is exactly that case because that's exactly what he says a few panels later.

Let's recap: Goku trained under 100x gravity for 6 days. Piccolo trained under 10x. Goku jumped from a base of 8000 to 80,000. Piccolo jumped from 3500 to X. We do not know what X is.

We know that Nail was 42,000, peak.

How did Goku get to 80,000?

Almost killing himself a minimum of 4 times and using the Saiyan recovery ability.

Fact: Piccolo would not be able to even remotely come close to Goku's power level.

Any conclusion beyond just a couple of thousand increase in Piccolo's power level would be wrong and contradictory to the facts in the Manga.

Where do you think Piccolo's power was? And why did you conclude that?

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, it's not.

As I keep reiterating: since there are absolutely -no- official figures regarding Piccolo's PL when he first arrived on Namek (if you know of any PLEASE post them so we can end this boring discussion), anything you come up with -however logical you think it may be- is still just your opinion. It quite literally cannot be anything else.

That said, if you think Piccolo was in the 10,000 range, that's fine. It's your opinion... Just like it's my opinion that his PL was beyond that, based on how I interpreted the narration.

Agree to disagree?

Originally posted by Galan007
Stopped here.

As I keep reiterating: since there are absolutely -no- official figures regarding Piccolo's PL when he first arrived on Namek (if you know of any PLEASE post them so we can end this boring discussion), anything you come up with -however logical you think it may be- is still just your opinion. It quite literally cannot be anything else.

You do not need official figures to actually come to a 100% factual conclusion.

Case-in-point: we know Goku's base power level, at max, when arriving on Namek was 90,000. Yet, his highest reading was 180,000. How do we know that? Cause he was using Kaio Ken which briefly doubles your power.

That said, if you think Piccolo was in the 10,000 range, that's fine. It's your opinion... Just like it's my opinion that his PL was beyond that, based on how I interpreted the narration.

Originally posted by Galan007
Agree to disagree?

No. I cannot agree to disagree as you have an ill-conceived idea on how strong Piccolo was.

If you can admit that Piccolo wasn't anywhere even close to 90,000 and was between 10,000-20,000, we can agree...despite that fact that the numbers show that Piccolo could not be any stronger than 10,000.

At that point, I would agree to disagree because I am willing to give Piccolo a bump.

Ok, what we need to do is find the cupboard from "Indian in the cupbord" get a frieza figure, and thousands and thousands of sayans and namak figures, and make them all alive, and pit them against each other.....wait..there is very little chance we would survive this, never mind!

Regardless of how exponential the namekian fusion is, if they ALL fused, or even several of the most powerful, there is very little chance that frieza would win this. Especially, if he goes down even one form.

Originally posted by menokokoro
Ok, what we need to do is find the cupboard from "Indian in the cupbord" get a frieza figure, and thousands and thousands of sayans and namak figures, and make them all alive, and pit them against each other.....wait..there is very little chance we would survive this, never mind!

Regardless of how exponential the namekian fusion is, if they ALL fused, or even several of the most powerful, there is very little chance that frieza would win this. Especially, if he goes down even one form.

Yes, if he goes down one form, just Nail and some no-name would be powerful enough to take on his 3rd form.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That said, if you think Piccolo was in the 10,000 range, that's fine. It's your opinion... Just like it's my opinion that his PL was beyond that, based on how I interpreted the narration.