HOTU vs. The Presence.

I also see your point about different aspects but looking it up it seems writers have described the supreme being in different ways.

The Voice – The disembodied "Voice of the Presence" that spoke to and empowered Jim Corrigan as the Spectre in More Fun Comics #52. This is the most "active" version of God seen in the comic books. At one point, it even answers the Spectre's prayers by resurrecting the murdered Justice Society of America.[3] When the Voice uttered the first word, it created "The Word", and it was already being tracked by Destiny in his book.
The Hand – An image of a hand appearing out of a nebula has been referenced numerous times in different DC Comics as a metaphor for the creator or the mystery that exists at the moment of universal creation. It was first seen in Green Lantern vol. 2, #40. In Crisis on Infinite Earths #10, the Hand was turned into a predestination paradox as the hand of the villainous Anti-Monitor, who tried to rearrange all existence at its starting point, but failed.
The Source – The universal spirit from Jack Kirby's Fourth World cosmology.
The Presence – The unseen Judeo-Christian deity from Grant Morrison's fictional angel mythology.

Like I said it's like the creation of earth, universe, etc. it is shown in different ways by different writers. The presence I seem to prescribe to in the dcu is grant morrison's version since it's referred to as the presence and the writer of ww 150 or so. Too lazy to put the hard drive in.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Then if it hasn't happened yet it's not canon. Boom.

The characters can interact yes but the actions of lucy's series aren't canon which you yourself agree to since you stated it happens in the future. Wonderfully nuking your own argument as to it being canon.

Thanos wielded such power due to experience. Cronus was ignorant and couldn't handle it. The Spectre even freaked when he was given a glimpse as well. Thanos can handle supreme power but Cronus can't.

You haven't even given a reason why Presence wins. Not one. If Cronus can absorb his power then so can Thanos and since Thanos can wield supreme power yet Cronus can't then Thanos wins.

Lol, parts of the series have happened. Just not the end of creation yet. I was sure you could grasp simple continuity, but apparently I was wrong.

Thanos lost it as well, so I don't know what you're trying to argue. Thanos was also driven crazy for a while as well, so again, I don't see your point if you have one.

Actually I have. The presence is outside of creation because he created it. It would be asinine to imply that just because someone absorbs a creation, they absorb its creator as well. There is contradictory proof across the map to disprove what you're attempting to argue.
So you're essentially saying thanos> Cronus> Presence/ Toaa? Your ABC logic is invalid anyway, but even if it wasn't, it still wouldn't make any sense.

Originally posted by quanchi112
TOAA isn't a comic book character. The supreme being was supreme so was Thanos after he was given the supreme being's power.

Thanos chose to give up his supreme power. That's called a choice. It was a problem or should I say such an epic problem the supreme being needed Thanos to achieve it. Highest feat I have ever read.

Thanos didn't lose the power through greed or incompetence he willingly lost it to save all of reality. Please at least be familiar with it before lying through your teeth.

No, he can't I never asserted as such. You fail to grasp the story or you just didn't read it. Only a fool would argue fictional comic book characters vs. real life people. Laughs.

So you're saying Marvel's supreme being> DC's? Much less, thanos with that supreme being's power> DC's supreme being? Seriously, enough with the bias. Toaa and Presence are both supreme. Thanos is nothing to either of them. Even with the power of either creation, he's just some retard who ate their new toy. Tbh, it's not ridiculous to say that either could just make another, and ad infinitum. They are both outside of the things that they created.

Yeah he made a choice. He bit off more than he could chew and played directly into Toaa's plan for him. He was damned from the start, he was just too greedy to see it. He wanted the power and he got it and lost it. He never thought to ask if there might be a price. Also, this "flaw" he fixed, iirc, he said that no one would come back from the dead after that.... well hate to break it to you, but thanos himself has come back, as has drax, and the cancerverse beings, etc... so what did he fix?

Lol, no one's lying through their teeth, he gained it through greed and lost it through incompetence. At a level in which one is supposedly "supreme" in all aspects, including wisdom, to lose such power without calculating that loss can be considered incompetence.

You said "TOAA is the writer this is based off of fictional comic book characters and Thanos has the power and the means to win." Presence is also the writer, so yes you are saying that thanos can beat the writer.

Originally posted by Sirius77
Lol, parts of the series have happened. Just not the end of creation yet. I was sure you could grasp simple continuity, but apparently I was wrong.

Thanos lost it as well, so I don't know what you're trying to argue. Thanos was also driven crazy for a while as well, so again, I don't see your point if you have one.

Actually I have. The presence is outside of creation because he created it. It would be asinine to imply that just because someone absorbs a creation, they absorb its creator as well. There is contradictory proof across the map to disprove what you're attempting to argue.
So you're essentially saying thanos> Cronus> Presence/ Toaa? Your ABC logic is invalid anyway, but even if it wasn't, it still wouldn't make any sense.

So you're saying Marvel's supreme being> DC's? Much less, thanos with that supreme being's power> DC's supreme being? Seriously, enough with the bias. Toaa and Presence are both supreme. Thanos is nothing to either of them. Even with the power of either creation, he's just some retard who ate their new toy. Tbh, it's not ridiculous to say that either could just make another, and ad infinitum. They are both outside of the things that they created.

Yeah he made a choice. He bit off more than he could chew and played directly into Toaa's plan for him. He was damned from the start, he was just too greedy to see it. He wanted the power and he got it and lost it. He never thought to ask if there might be a price. Also, this "flaw" he fixed, iirc, he said that no one would come back from the dead after that.... well hate to break it to you, but thanos himself has come back, as has drax, and the cancerverse beings, etc... so what did he fix?

Lol, no one's lying through their teeth, he gained it through greed and lost it through incompetence. At a level in which one is supposedly "supreme" in all aspects, including wisdom, to lose such power without calculating that loss can be considered incompetence.

You said "TOAA is the writer this is based off of fictional comic book characters and Thanos has the power and the means to win." Presence is also the writer, so yes you are saying that thanos can beat the writer.

Never once iirc is the TOAA referred to in marvel's the end. So quit acting like the writer was. This is a fictional universe setting as was the comic book. You trying to argue against real people is foolish and not at all what happened in any of these stories. Get it together.

I am saying Thanos can absorb all of creation which is what exactly morrison's presence was/is. I also believe think due to the evidence he easily takes on the presence's power if Cronus can and like I said fifty times has shown he can wield supreme power unlike Cronus.

Now take the TOAA and other real life people out of the debate. You have zero proof and no scans to even make a case. You just make one thing up to the next and draw false comparisons.

Thanos has shown the ability to do what has been done to the presence on panel. Point blank.

TOAA isn't in marvel's the end anyways. The presence is supreme just like Thanos was after he took on the power of the heart. No two supreme beings are equal unless you can prove it. You haven't proven anything just made unsupported claims so we are left to debate who can win and why. I have backed my case and whether you disagree it's your problem. I have made my case and supported it with scans asserting how I think Thanos wins. You saying presence wins just because isn't a valid debating tactic.

Thanos was competent with the heart. He had to lose it and also had to lose his life but found a way out of that. Incompetence means he was inadequate with the power but since he saved all of creation with it this shows you don't even know what incompetent means.

Thanos calculated the loss and it was unavoidable but so was his supposed death but he found a loophole and benefited from being tricked by the supreme being. What an awesome feat to actually come out on top despite the situation he found himself in.

The presence isn't described as the writer anywhere in my scans. If you have a scan that asserts this claim by all means post it. Also post in marvel's the end where it states TOAA. Maybe I am forgetting something I haven't even put the disk in.

In the end I am quan and have covered all my bases while you haven't covered one.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos mastered the power unlike Cronus. Cronus was unable to wield it whereas Thanos not only wielded it saved the supreme being along with himself as well.

Never once iirc is the TOAA referred to in marvel's the end. So quit acting like the writer was. This is a fictional universe setting as was the comic book. You trying to argue against real people is foolish and not at all what happened in any of these stories. Get it together.

I am saying Thanos can absorb all of creation which is what exactly morrison's presence was/is. I also believe think due to the evidence he easily takes on the presence's power if Cronus can and like I said fifty times has shown he can wield supreme power unlike Cronus.

Now take the TOAA and other real life people out of the debate. You have zero proof and no scans to even make a case. You just make one thing up to the next and draw false comparisons.

Thanos has shown the ability to do what has been done to the presence on panel. Point blank.

TOAA isn't in marvel's the end anyways. The presence is supreme just like Thanos was after he took on the power of the heart. No two supreme beings are equal unless you can prove it. You haven't proven anything just made unsupported claims so we are left to debate who can win and why. I have backed my case and whether you disagree it's your problem. I have made my case and supported it with scans asserting how I think Thanos wins. You saying presence wins just because isn't a valid debating tactic.

Thanos was competent with the heart. He had to lose it and also had to lose his life but found a way out of that. Incompetence means he was inadequate with the power but since he saved all of creation with it this shows you don't even know what incompetent means.

Thanos calculated the loss and it was unavoidable but so was his supposed death but he found a loophole and benefited from being tricked by the supreme being. What an awesome feat to actually come out on top despite the situation he found himself in.

The presence isn't described as the writer anywhere in my scans. If you have a scan that asserts this claim by all means post it. Also post in marvel's the end where it states TOAA. Maybe I am forgetting something I haven't even put the disk in.

In the end I am quan and have covered all my bases while you haven't covered one.

Quan, you still haven't proven anything except that you're using the version of the presence that you subscribe to. The fact is that the presence is more than just some shiny thing in the silver city. He's the source, the hand, the primal moniter, all of these things put together. He exists across continuities just like toaa. You want to claim that Marvel's god is better than DC's? Fine, do it. Make a fanboy of yourself. The fact is that they are both portrayed and outright stated (at least DC's supreme being is) on multiple occasions to be outside, above, within, and beyond creation.

Thanos absorbing something that is beneath a supreme being does not equate to him being above said supreme being. If you really subscribe to morrison's supreme being, or morrison's presence, then read Final Crisis: Superman Beyond. He describes the Prime Moniter as being outside of everything, over everything and dreaming of everything, and everything being his dream. This is an aspect of the Presence, or rather more simply, the Moniters' word for him. He literally just dreams everything up. So if thanos eats his dreams, more power to him. He still gets beaten. Because dreams are not more powerful than the dreamer. However, that gets into philosophical territory.

If we are to leave real life people out of the debate, then we should leave the Presence out of the debate because he is a writer analogue. I have given a scan. That's what started this debate. Maybe you should "Get it together".

Everyone who has tried to absorb the presence has failed. However, one person replaced the presence.... Elaine, who is essentially a clone of Michael, and guess what happened to the presence? He left of his own accord, because he planned it all along. The Presence is not just his creation, he is above and beyond it. Absorbing creation has been done. By the antimoniter. That didn't end well for anyone.

Toaa has been referenced in many other comics. One that comes to mind is the FF issue with I think the Kirby avatar representing Toaa. Just because he was not explicitly named, does not mean that he was not associated with the comic. Thanos implied that he was chosen to fix the flaw. He was obviously referring to someone when he implied that. Make of that what you will.

He lost the power and at the end of the day, Toaa had it again. So with that said, if his original goal was to seize the power for himself (which it was), and he lost it, then he was incompetent with the power in comparison to Toaa. It's not a bad feat. It just means that he wasn't as good as it's original wielder. Which was my point all along, and one of the reasons why he loses.

Just because the presence isn't described as the writer in your scans specifically, doesn't mean that he isn't. Because your scans are not the only scans.

Good to meet you Quan. I'm Sirius, and you haven't proven anything.

Originally posted by Sirius77
Quan, you still haven't proven anything except that you're using the version of the presence that you subscribe to. The fact is that the presence is more than just some shiny thing in the silver city. He's the source, the hand, the primal moniter, all of these things put together. He exists across continuities just like toaa. You want to claim that Marvel's god is better than DC's? Fine, do it. Make a fanboy of yourself. The fact is that they are both portrayed and outright stated (at least DC's supreme being is) on multiple occasions to be outside, above, within, and beyond creation.

Thanos absorbing something that is beneath a supreme being does not equate to him being above said supreme being. If you really subscribe to morrison's supreme being, or morrison's presence, then read Final Crisis: Superman Beyond. He describes the Prime Moniter as being outside of everything, over everything and dreaming of everything, and everything being his dream. This is an aspect of the Presence, or rather more simply, the Moniters' word for him. He literally just dreams everything up. So if thanos eats his dreams, more power to him. He still gets beaten. Because dreams are not more powerful than the dreamer. However, that gets into philosophical territory.

If we are to leave real life people out of the debate, then we should leave the Presence out of the debate because he is a writer analogue. I have given a scan. That's what started this debate. Maybe you should "Get it together".

Everyone who has tried to absorb the presence has failed. However, one person replaced the presence.... Elaine, who is essentially a clone of Michael, and guess what happened to the presence? He left of his own accord, because he planned it all along. The Presence is not just his creation, he is above and beyond it. Absorbing creation has been done. By the antimoniter. That didn't end well for anyone.

Toaa has been referenced in many other comics. One that comes to mind is the FF issue with I think the Kirby avatar representing Toaa. Just because he was not explicitly named, does not mean that he was not associated with the comic. Thanos implied that he was chosen to fix the flaw. He was obviously referring to someone when he implied that. Make of that what you will.

He lost the power and at the end of the day, Toaa had it again. So with that said, if his original goal was to seize the power for himself (which it was), and he lost it, then he was incompetent with the power in comparison to Toaa. It's not a bad feat. It just means that he wasn't as good as it's original wielder. Which was my point all along, and one of the reasons why he loses.

Just because the presence isn't described as the writer in your scans specifically, doesn't mean that he isn't. Because your scans are not the only scans.

Good to meet you Quan. I'm Sirius, and you haven't proven anything.

The TOAA isn't in this thread and has nothing to do with the heart so please quit making things up. You didn't even read the arc I imagine nor have you read paradise lost or the ww arc. I guarantee it. This has nothing to do with Monitors either. If so please back up your case with scans. What does a Monitor have to do with paradise lost or the ww arc ? Seriously, sirius.

The presence isn't a writer it's morrison's version of the supreme being of the dcu within the dcu. Where is it alluded to the presence is the writer ? where ?

Vertigo isn't canon to the dcu and in vertigo's series all you had to do was enter the throne room to absorb his power. His name was written on every atom and molecule across creation he wasn't portrayed as some unbeatable being even in that series just the creator. Even in that series he wanted to perhaps change roles with Lucy but was denied.

Exactly, at no point was their ever any reference to the writer in the comic. You citing another story where the writer was cited has absolutely nothing to do with this story. You are making false parallels. You have nothing. Absolutely nothing.

TOAA wasn't in the story and Thanos gave up his power willingly to save all of reality. Thanos still survived despite the sheer difficulty in doing so after the said feat.

These scans prove how he is portrayed in two arcs. Nowhere is it even alluded to the presence is the writer. This means I backed up my case while you haven't put up any scans of the presence in the dcu as portrayed as the writer.

This isn't morrison's intention who I believe introduced the presence to the dcu.

That being said Thanos wins, easily. Nothing the presence can do nor do I even believe he would even care to oppose him anyways i fyou want to tie vertigo's presence into it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The supreme being tricked Thanos then Thanos took his power and then became the supreme being.

You really struggle sometimes.

No, actually, even Thanos himself admitted that he HAD been tricked by the One-Above-All ("Lord Almighty"😉. He himself told Warlock, "Check and mate" - he had won a Universe, he had lost the Game.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I've already proven it. In paradise lost the presence isn't portrayed as just as an aspect nor is th epresence portrayed as just an aspect in the ww arc. If you feel that is how he is portrayed prove it. I have more than given a case.

The TOAA isn't in this thread and has nothing to do with the heart so please quit making things up. You didn't even read the arc I imagine nor have you read paradise lost or the ww arc. I guarantee it. This has nothing to do with Monitors either. If so please back up your case with scans. What does a Monitor have to do with paradise lost or the ww arc ? Seriously, sirius.

The presence isn't a writer it's morrison's version of the supreme being of the dcu within the dcu. Where is it alluded to the presence is the writer ? where ?

Vertigo isn't canon to the dcu and in vertigo's series all you had to do was enter the throne room to absorb his power. His name was written on every atom and molecule across creation he wasn't portrayed as some unbeatable being even in that series just the creator. Even in that series he wanted to perhaps change roles with Lucy but was denied.

Exactly, at no point was their ever any reference to the writer in the comic. You citing another story where the writer was cited has absolutely nothing to do with this story. You are making false parallels. You have nothing. Absolutely nothing.

TOAA wasn't in the story and Thanos gave up his power willingly to save all of reality. Thanos still survived despite the sheer difficulty in doing so after the said feat.

These scans prove how he is portrayed in two arcs. Nowhere is it even alluded to the presence is the writer. This means I backed up my case while you haven't put up any scans of the presence in the dcu as portrayed as the writer.

This isn't morrison's intention who I believe introduced the presence to the dcu.

That being said Thanos wins, easily. Nothing the presence can do nor do I even believe he would even care to oppose him anyways i fyou want to tie vertigo's presence into it.

Literally all of this means nothing.

You're picking and choosing which version of Presence you want this to be when the title of the thread in fact said ambiguously "The Presence". You didn't start the thread quan, so don't get to pick which one. With that said, your argument is even less valid than it was before.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Tricked him? Thanos got the HOTU out of free will. The supreme being tricked him after that.As said in the comic itself.

Originally posted by Sirius77
Literally all of this means nothing.

You're picking and choosing which version of Presence you want this to be when the title of the thread in fact said ambiguously "The Presence". You didn't start the thread quan, so don't get to pick which one. With that said, your argument is even less valid than it was before.

All Thanos has to do is enter his throne room in the silver city and assume his place as the center of creation. I think vertigo's presence would actually welcome Thanos since lucy turned him down.

Quan, consider this a warning for being a blatherskite.

durband

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Tricked him? Thanos got the HOTU out of free will. The supreme being tricked him after that.As said in the comic itself.

Originally posted by Badabing
Quan, consider this a warning for being a blatherskite.

durband

Originally posted by quanchi112
This is the dcu presence. I have two stories which support my claims. You insisting this is vertigo's version won't save the presence from thanos either.

All Thanos has to do is enter his throne room in the silver city and assume his place as the center of creation. I think vertigo's presence would actually welcome Thanos since lucy turned him down.

How do you know it's DC's Presence? Are you Trick? How do you know they're not one and the same? You've give no usable evidence either way. So do you have a point?

Lucy and Michael were made to do what you're talking about, thanos wouldn't even get to the throne room, Presence would touch him with his umbrella and annihilate him just like he did Lillith when she tried the same thing.

What? Unless I'm remembering wrong, the Presence in DC is the same one as Vertigo.

^
Nah, you're right, that's what I've been saying all along. Quan just refused to acknowledge it or debate it, so I argued it from his side. Because in the long run, it doesn't really matter. Presence still wins lol.

Originally posted by Sirius77
How do you know it's DC's Presence? Are you Trick? How do you know they're not one and the same? You've give no usable evidence either way. So do you have a point?

Lucy and Michael were made to do what you're talking about, thanos wouldn't even get to the throne room, Presence would touch him with his umbrella and annihilate him just like he did Lillith when she tried the same thing.

If they are one and the same my scans still count. The presence's power can be taken as it was by Cronus or by being in the throne room in lucy's series.

Thanos was supreme as well so he isn't being destroyed since in lucy's series presence was shaped by external forces as well and isn't the end all be all being he was just the center of creation until Elaine took over.

Originally posted by -Pr-
What? Unless I'm remembering wrong, the Presence in DC is the same one as Vertigo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He was tricked prior to acquiring it and realized the situation he was in and what was required. he was only tricked once, sport.

This is the dcu presence. I have two stories which support my claims. You insisting this is vertigo's version won't save the presence from thanos either.

All Thanos has to do is enter his throne room in the silver city and assume his place as the center of creation. I think vertigo's presence would actually welcome Thanos since lucy turned him down.

Originally posted by -Pr-
What? Unless I'm remembering wrong, the Presence in DC is the same one as Vertigo.

18: Something that touches upon expanding the universe with bringing in the Milestone characters and the Red Circle characters – it’s a question that comes up at every panel you do – DC has the Vertigo characters...

DD ( Dan Didio ex Editor In Chief Of DC): Who does? I don’t have the Vertigo characters> The DCU does not have the Vertigo characters. Those are under the auspices of Vertigo under Karen Berger, and they have a set plan for those characters that works independently from what we do here – and that’s that. I’ve answered this question so many times...the reality is, as aggressively as we may tell stories with our characters, we will never be Vertigo Comics. We can never use the language that they use in Vertigo, or address the subject matter that they address, therefore, we try to make a very clear delineation between what is DCU and what is Vertigo. Once characters are up front and prominent there, they cannot be anywhere near the DCU.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
I'm pretty sure that even if Thano managed to do that Presence could just as easily take away said power that Thanos would have. You're acting like his will could be resisted. The whole reason for all of the main pts of the Lucifer series is essentially that Presence is tired of always knowing what will happen and always being in control of everything and everything happening exactly as he knows it will. But even after he leaves he very much still has power over all the proceedings. Its by his will that DCU isn't simply extinguished. and its by his will that Elaine takes over. also its not like any Dick and Jane can take over the throne. It was only ever going to either be Elaine or Michael that took over the position of God. Michael was supposed to cause he had the demiurgic power necessary. but when Elaine took over she really was the only one left who could do it besides presence himself coming back which he certainly wasn't going to do. He didn't put the power in the throne.

It can be resisted as Lucy resisted his will time and time again. How on earth can you miss that ? Wow.

No, he doesn't. The power is in his throne. We saw two idiots stumble onto it. This isn't debatable. You can try to disregard everything to your hearts content as I use the comics to illustrate my points whereas the naysayers say presence wins just because with no rhyme or showings to back it up.

Thanos stomps either presence.

Yo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Like I said it's like the creation of earth, universe, etc. it is shown in different ways by different writers. The presence I seem to prescribe to in the dcu is grant morrison's version since it's referred to as the presence and the writer of ww 150 or so. Too lazy to put the hard drive in.

but wait: isnt Morrison's version exactly the same as Gaimans version........? 😉

Tazer