Originally posted by quanchi112
Well if it isn't then the vertigo presence is separate which I have always been behind in lieu of didio's comments.I'll argue either or though.
What comments by Didio?
I always thought that they were just different interpretations of the same being, tbh.
And how is Thanos supposed to usurp power from the supreme being?
Originally posted by -Pr-
What comments by Didio?I always thought that they were just different interpretations of the same being, tbh.
And how is Thanos supposed to usurp power from the supreme being?
Originally posted by NotSoBadThis is pulled from the interview I read. I haven't looked for it though since this debate started.
18: Something that touches upon expanding the universe with bringing in the Milestone characters and the Red Circle characters – it’s a question that comes up at every panel you do – DC has the Vertigo characters...DD ( Dan Didio ex Editor In Chief Of DC): Who does? I don’t have the Vertigo characters> The DCU does not have the Vertigo characters. Those are under the auspices of Vertigo under Karen Berger, and they have a set plan for those characters that works independently from what we do here – and that’s that. I’ve answered this question so many times...the reality is, as aggressively as we may tell stories with our characters, we will never be Vertigo Comics. We can never use the language that they use in Vertigo, or address the subject matter that they address, therefore, we try to make a very clear delineation between what is DCU and what is Vertigo. Once characters are up front and prominent there, they cannot be anywhere near the DCU.
A few different ways. Either absorb the presence's power like Cronus did. Absorb creation which he has already done. Or walk into his throne room and take his power that way akin vertigo series.
Originally posted by quanchi112
This is pulled from the interview I read. I haven't looked for it though since this debate started.A few different ways. Either absorb the presence's power like Cronus did. Absorb creation which he has already done. Or walk into his throne room and take his power that way akin vertigo series.
I don't see why Didio would say that and then blatantly ignore it.
Thanos isn't Cronus, though, and you still have to prove that the supreme being is within creation.
wait. so you want to disallow parts of vertigo you don't like, but allow parts you do?
Originally posted by quanchi112
Nope, since Thanos himself is another supreme being size makes no difference as Thanos can alter himself as big as he wants to be not that it matters.The Presence is a fictional character not the writer nor have you provided any evidence opposed to my evidence where Cronus himself absorbed his power. Only you would think Cronus absorbed the writer's power.
The difference is not one of size, but of scale. Presence was not only outside of creation, but depicted as holding it within his hand. In other words, he was above it and beyond it. So if he absorbs Presence's creation, then the presence still wins as he is simply beyond it.
Yes I have. The presence, or the supreme being of DC goes by many names, the angels call him presence, Oans call him the hand, the moniters, the primal monitor, and the new gods simply call him the source. Either way, these are all expressions of their supreme being. He has been depicted as being beyond everything more than once, including in final crisis in which he is said to be simply dreaming everything up. So yes, he is a writer avatar. The only reason that you refuse to acknowledge this is because you're biased, and quite frankly unreasonable to the point of non-perception of elementary logic. You have proven nothing except that the presence's power is too great for anyone to wield bar the presence himself.
So with that said, thanos will not be stealing the presence's power, because in this scenario, the presence is intent on winning. He isn't playing games with thanos or out to trick, use, or teach him a lesson. In this scenario thanos will fight a truly supreme being that isn't toying with him like TOAA did. So he loses. To say otherwise would be blatantly ignorant.
Originally posted by -Pr-I think his point is their message is mature and their characters have set paths independent of the dcu. That doesn't mean these characters can't interact with each other but that their actions in veritgo are outside continuity.
I don't see why Didio would say that and then blatantly ignore it.Thanos isn't Cronus, though, and you still have to prove that the supreme being is within creation.
wait. so you want to disallow parts of vertigo you don't like, but allow parts you do?
Good point. He's 1 billion times more powerful than Cronus here and has shown he can survive supreme power and master it unlike Cronus.
I am saying if we allow vertigo's presence into the picture here I can argue against this presence as well. I wouldn't ignore anything that presence did either.
Originally posted by Sirius77That's vertigo's presence which is different than morrison's portrayal in paradise lost. You can't justify the presence's portrayal by another writer years later.
The difference is not one of size, but of scale. Presence was not only outside of creation, but depicted as holding it within his hand. In other words, he was above it and beyond it. So if he absorbs Presence's creation, then the presence still wins as he is simply beyond it.Yes I have. The presence, or the supreme being of DC goes by many names, the angels call him presence, Oans call him the hand, the moniters, the primal monitor, and the new gods simply call him the source. Either way, these are all expressions of their supreme being. He has been depicted as being beyond everything more than once, including in final crisis in which he is said to be simply dreaming everything up. So yes, he is a writer avatar. The only reason that you refuse to acknowledge this is because you're biased, and quite frankly unreasonable to the point of non-perception of elementary logic. You have proven nothing except that the presence's power is too great for anyone to wield bar the presence himself.
So with that said, thanos will not be stealing the presence's power, because in this scenario, the presence is intent on winning. He isn't playing games with thanos or out to trick, use, or teach him a lesson. In this scenario thanos will fight a truly supreme being that isn't toying with him like TOAA did. So he loses. To say otherwise would be blatantly ignorant.
This is the presence not another aspect. This is getting into different writer's portrayals here but I used presence examples while you veered off topic.
The Presence is alleged to almost be the most powerful entity in the DC Universe. Different stories portray it as being the "creator of the DC universe" and thus transcending all things, with the Presence itself being its representation within creation. Other stories present it as another god who inherited a large portion of the godwave, the force that created the gods of the DC Universe.
Thanos wins as I have shown his power stolen and alluded to him existing throughout all of creation. Thanos has the means to win and to say otherwise is just wishful thinking.
I don't appease the majority's opinion. Ever.
Not what I was referring to. Didio says Vertigo characters are independent of the DCU, and yet blatanly lets them appear in DC books. Seems counterproductive to me.
Thanos doesn't have Cronus' knowledge though, even if you're right.
You still haven't proven that he exists within ceation, Quan. This is the presence, the creator. I fail to see how you think he can be within creation when he himself created it.
Originally posted by quanchi112
That's vertigo's presence which is different than morrison's portrayal in paradise lost. You can't justify the presence's portrayal by another writer years later.This is the presence not another aspect. This is getting into different writer's portrayals here but I used presence examples while you veered off topic.
The Presence is alleged to almost be the most powerful entity in the DC Universe. Different stories portray it as being the "creator of the DC universe" and thus transcending all things, with the Presence itself being its representation within creation. Other stories present it as another god who inherited a large portion of the godwave, the force that created the gods of the DC Universe.Thanos wins as I have shown his power stolen and alluded to him existing throughout all of creation. Thanos has the means to win and to say otherwise is just wishful thinking.
I don't appease the majority's opinion. Ever.
Do you know how many writers a given character has in his/ her career? If we only argued characters as categorized by writer, then this would be quite a dead forum. If you do want to slice the character up by categorizing him by writer, then arguing morrison's supreme being would be perhaps most to the detriment of your argument imo.
Which is why I gave the different names for the presence as given by various notable characters from different DC titles. He is called all of these things, but is the same being. He has never been portrayed as anything less than above, beyond, within, and outside creation and every being it encompasses.
He absorbed creation, but what significance does that have to beings outside and beyond it? How does absorbing a supreme being's play thing give him the power to match, much less defeat said being?
I'll do what I want. Don't get butthurt because thanos loses here. It isn't a low feat.
Originally posted by Sirius77We are arguing the presence and you are trying to lump in different writer's takes on the supreme being or the different representations. We can only deal with the presence here as that is clearly listed in the thread.
Do you know how many writers a given character has in his/ her career? If we only argued characters as categorized by writer, then this would be quite a dead forum. If you do want to slice the character up by categorizing him by writer, then arguing morrison's supreme being would be perhaps most to the detriment of your argument imo.Which is why I gave the different names for the presence as given by various notable characters from different DC titles. He is called all of these things, but is the same being. He has never been portrayed as anything less than above, beyond, within, and outside creation and every being it encompasses.
He absorbed creation, but what significance does that have to beings outside and beyond it? How does absorbing a supreme being's play thing give him the power to match, much less defeat said being?
I'll do what I want. Don't get butthurt because thanos loses here. It isn't a low feat.
He was portrayed as a lot less than in ww 150. He was the being with the biggest part of the godwave.
Thanos absorbs his power like Cronus did. Nothing the presence can do to Thanos. You have zero proof of anything even affecting him but I have proof of someone taking the presence's power.
Thanos easily takes his power and isn't even phased just like in his story. Thanos stomps.
Originally posted by quanchi112
We are arguing the presence and you are trying to lump in different writer's takes on the supreme being or the different representations. We can only deal with the presence here as that is clearly listed in the thread.He was portrayed as a lot less than in ww 150. He was the being with the biggest part of the godwave.
Thanos absorbs his power like Cronus did. Nothing the presence can do to Thanos. You have zero proof of anything even affecting him but I have proof of someone taking the presence's power.
Thanos easily takes his power and isn't even phased just like in his story. Thanos stomps.
That's the thing. The supreme being of the DCU wouldn't be supreme if he was only over one universe any more than TOAA would, wouldn't you agree? I'm "lumping in" different interpretations because it's the same character, just written by different people.
It's the same concept as using feats from Sentry in a forum battle as portrayed by both Bendis in Dark Reign and Lee in his standalone. They are both the same character and their feats are interchangeable. Either way, your point is moot, as Trick was ambiguous about which "version" of the presence as you would refer to it. But he shouldn't have to be exact, because there is only one presence. Everyone seems to understand that a supreme being doesn't have "versions" except for you....
How was he portrayed as less powerful? No one was able to wrest power from him. Either way, he is outside of his own creation, so the point is moot.
And I have evidence of Thanos being manipulated and used by a supreme being, which the presence is. Either way, having the power of creation isn't enough to battle its creator. TOAA allowed thanos to absorb creation and presence allowed Cronus to do the same, they both lost it. The only difference in this scenario is that this is a vs match and presence will be fighting back. Thanos cannot win.
You haven't proven any of this. You're just making things up without foundation. You've proved nothing and done nothing to counter the points raised except repeat yourself. I don't see how you can live like this lol. All the same, it's admittedly entertaining. So believe what you want, it doesn't change what is or is not one way or another, it's your right as a human being I guess haha....
Yo.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I am saying if we allow vertigo's presence into the picture here I can argue against this presence as well. I wouldn't ignore anything that presence did either.
not really, since in Vertigo we've SEEN that The Presence *is in fact* a separate entity, and not something stitched/intoerwoven in Creation.
Tazer
Originally posted by -Pr-
Not what I was referring to. Didio says Vertigo characters are independent of the DCU, and yet blatanly lets them appear in DC books. Seems counterproductive to me.Thanos doesn't have Cronus' knowledge though, even if you're right.
You still haven't proven that he exists within ceation, Quan. This is the presence, the creator. I fail to see how you think he can be within creation when he himself created it.
👆 Cronus never took the power of God/The Presence at all, he merely touched God and then gained perfect clarity, finally understanding everything he fell back to Gaea and died. He was never a threat to him at all.. Also Quan Eliane (or anyone else for that matter) cannot just simply sit at Primum Mobile and take the power, its not that simple. 😂
Originally posted by Sirius77It's different interpretations just like any character but you don't ignore Thor's losses or ways to defeat him just like you cant ignore the means to defeat him here.
That's the thing. The supreme being of the DCU wouldn't be supreme if he was only over one universe any more than TOAA would, wouldn't you agree? I'm "lumping in" different interpretations because it's the same character, just written by different people.It's the same concept as using feats from Sentry in a forum battle as portrayed by both Bendis in Dark Reign and Lee in his standalone. They are both the same character and their feats are interchangeable. Either way, your point is moot, as Trick was ambiguous about which "version" of the presence as you would refer to it. But he shouldn't have to be exact, because there is only one presence. Everyone seems to understand that a supreme being doesn't have "versions" except for you....
How was he portrayed as less powerful? No one was able to wrest power from him. Either way, he is outside of his own creation, so the point is moot.
And I have evidence of Thanos being manipulated and used by a supreme being, which the presence is. Either way, having the power of creation isn't enough to battle its creator. TOAA allowed thanos to absorb creation and presence allowed Cronus to do the same, they both lost it. The only difference in this scenario is that this is a vs match and presence will be fighting back. Thanos cannot win.
You haven't proven any of this. You're just making things up without foundation. You've proved nothing and done nothing to counter the points raised except repeat yourself. I don't see how you can live like this lol. All the same, it's admittedly entertaining. So believe what you want, it doesn't change what is or is not one way or another, it's your right as a human being I guess haha....
No, wrong. The Sentry/Void is the same character and the presence isn't the same as the source. I am using presence and presence alone whereas you are ignoring the presence portrayals you don't like. Nothing the presence can do can even make Thanos take notice of him. There's evidence though Thanos can take his power.
His power was taken in the ww issue. He's against Thanos here. Quit arguing against my proof it's canon.
Thanos being manipulated before he became the supreme being is irrelevant to this thread. Thanos stomps he doesn't just win there's no proof presence can even harm him. You have nothing. Prove presence can beat Thanos. Prove something.
Scan speaks for itself. Cronus took the presence's power. Attacking all of creation is a means to attack the presence.
Originally posted by TazerDidio says this isn't canon to the dcu so irrelevant. I am right and understand these characters far better than you do. 🙂
Yo.not really, since in Vertigo we've SEEN that The Presence *is in fact* a separate entity, and not something stitched/intoerwoven in Creation.
Tazer
Originally posted by -Pr-His point is clear their mature books and acts act independently outside of the dcu. Lucy's actions aren't canon to the dcu.
Not what I was referring to. Didio says Vertigo characters are independent of the DCU, and yet blatanly lets them appear in DC books. Seems counterproductive to me.Thanos doesn't have Cronus' knowledge though, even if you're right.
You still haven't proven that he exists within ceation, Quan. This is the presence, the creator. I fail to see how you think he can be within creation when he himself created it.
Thanos is far smarter than cronus. I mean if they are battling then the presence's power is for the taking in heaven. His power was never hidden.
I have listed my scans and my reasoning disagree with it but I backed up my reasoning.
Originally posted by quanchi112
It's different interpretations just like any character but you don't ignore Thor's losses or ways to defeat him just like you cant ignore the means to defeat him here.No, wrong. The Sentry/Void is the same character and the presence isn't the same as the source. I am using presence and presence alone whereas you are ignoring the presence portrayals you don't like. Nothing the presence can do can even make Thanos take notice of him. There's evidence though Thanos can take his power.
His power was taken in the ww issue. He's against Thanos here. Quit arguing against my proof it's canon.
Thanos being manipulated before he became the supreme being is irrelevant to this thread. Thanos stomps he doesn't just win there's no proof presence can even harm him. You have nothing. Prove presence can beat Thanos. Prove something.
Scan speaks for itself. Cronus took the presence's power. Attacking all of creation is a means to attack the presence.
Who said anything about ignoring losses? The presence was never defeated. Read the comic.
Yeah, they're the same being. Just different expressions of him. The source is an aspect of the presence, this much is common knowledge. You've given no evidence to prove that thanos can achieve such a feat if the presence doesn't want him to, or that it would even matter if he could.
He only realized he had been tricked after he had been supreme for some time. Warlock was the one that revealed it to him. I already have proven that the presence is outside of his creation and can destroy it on a whim. If thanos has the power of a creation, then there is nothing to stop the presence from destroying thanos. You have proven nothing throughout this entire argument but the fact that no one can take the presence's power.
No it wasn't. Again, you haven't proven anything. No one has said that it isn't canon. Everyone isn't as irrational as you.
All the scan proved was that a given being, can't even absorb the presence's creation if he's not resisting. My scan proved that he is outside of, beyond, above, and vastly more powerful than his own creation and able to destroy it on a whim. So I guess you could say that we both proved my point.
Originally posted by Sirius77His power was taken. Cronus couldn't handle it therefore if anyone can handle it the presence's powers is taken then he loses.
Who said anything about ignoring losses? The presence was never defeated. Read the comic.Yeah, they're the same being. Just different expressions of him. The source is an aspect of the presence, this much is common knowledge. You've given no evidence to prove that thanos can achieve such a feat if the presence doesn't want him to, or that it would even matter if he could.
He only realized he had been tricked after he had been supreme for some time. Warlock was the one that revealed it to him. I already have proven that the presence is outside of his creation and can destroy it on a whim. If thanos has the power of a creation, then there is nothing to stop the presence from destroying thanos. You have proven nothing throughout this entire argument but the fact that no one can take the presence's power.
No it wasn't. Again, you haven't proven anything. No one has said that it isn't canon. Everyone isn't as irrational as you.
All the scan proved was that a given being, can't even absorb the presence's creation if he's not resisting. My scan proved that he is outside of, beyond, above, and vastly more powerful than his own creation and able to destroy it on a whim. So I guess you could say that we both proved my point.
No, wrong. We are arguing the presence not different aspects by different writers. Until you prove the presence equals them then you can't just start taking from this or that just because you don't have a case.
That occurred in vertigo and Thanos is supreme. The presence can destroy his own creation in vertigo but he can't just easily do the same to something he didn't create. Wow.
Cronus can't handle supreme power Thanos can and has. Thanos wins. You can argue all day long but what I say rings true.
Originally posted by quanchi112 His power was taken. Cronus couldn't handle it therefore if anyone can handle it the presence's powers is taken then he loses.
So which is it quan? Was his power taken, or could cronus not handle it lol?
So because cronus took and didn't take the power according to you, anyone can? Okay.
On a serious note, the presence's power wasn't taken, nor did the presence lose. His power was touched and cronus failed to absorb it. So either way, you don't have any steam left for whatever argument that you were attempting to make.
Originally posted by quanchi112 No, wrong. We are arguing the presence not different aspects by different writers. Until you prove the presence equals them then you can't just start taking from this or that just because you don't have a case.
No, you are arguing these imaginary "versions" of the presence. I'm arguing the presence. Just out of curiousity, do you believe that TOAA has different versions as well?
Originally posted by quanchi112 That occurred in vertigo and Thanos is supreme. The presence can destroy his own creation in vertigo but he can't just easily do the same to something he didn't create. Wow.Cronus can't handle supreme power Thanos can and has. Thanos wins. You can argue all day long but what I say rings true.
Same presence. Thanos was only as supreme as TOAA allowed him to be. Had TOAA wanted, there is nothing to say that he could have easily taken the power back. Since this battle takes place in a neutral setting, per forum rules, there is nothing to say that presence couldn't destroy thanos as easily as he could his own creation. He's not battling TOAA, so this won't be a stalemate. He's just battling thanos with the power of one creation that he couldn't even hold onto without sacrificing himself.
Fine, then I will continue to repeat myself and listen to your weak, contradictory argument over and over again for as long as it takes. Lol. As I said, this is somewhat entertaining.
Originally posted by Sirius77His power was taken and Cronus couldn't handle it. The writer clearly portrayed this. Thanos has handled supreme power on panel. Logically then Thanos can handle this power which was just a majority of the godwave.
So which is it quan? Was his power taken, or could cronus not handle it lol?So because cronus took and didn't take the power according to you, anyone can? Okay.
On a serious note, the presence's power wasn't taken, nor did the presence lose. His power was touched and cronus failed to absorb it. So either way, you don't have any steam left for whatever argument that you were attempting to make.
No, you are arguing these imaginary "versions" of the presence. I'm arguing the presence. Just out of curiousity, do you believe that TOAA has different versions as well?
Same presence. Thanos was only as supreme as TOAA allowed him to be. Had TOAA wanted, there is nothing to say that he could have easily taken the power back. Since this battle takes place in a neutral setting, per forum rules, there is nothing to say that presence couldn't destroy thanos as easily as he could his own creation. He's not battling TOAA, so this won't be a stalemate. He's just battling thanos with the power of one creation that he couldn't even hold onto without sacrificing himself.
Fine, then I will continue to repeat myself and listen to your weak, contradictory argument over and over again for as long as it takes. Lol. As I said, this is somewhat entertaining.
Not anyone but someone on panel who has survived supreme power and mastered it due to willpower. 🙂 I back up my case. I am not saying spiderman can do it I am saying someone with Thanos' history and he's already done it. He's done one better than just taking the majority of the godwave.
I don't argue writer's in versus debates. Every character has different versions as there are many writers. Now we lump them all together and we can use losses as a way to debate how these characters get beaten. It'd be like arguing Thor and you ignoring every Thor loss or manner of defeat which you are doing here.
Thanos was supreme and never in the story was this even alluded to. You have no evidence to support these wild theories you just keep typing things. There's no proof he could have taken his power back since Thanos was the supreme being so if it's your claim he could have then prove it. I don't have to disprove your claims you have to first prove them.
Thanos survived and found the loophole. He saved all of reality. Thanos in this versus battle beats the presence with ease. Easily.