Marvel speed vs DC speed

When we talk about forum fights we are taking the comic out of the equation - to a significant degree. We're putting these characters in a 3 dimensional scenario, free of the still picture 2 dimensional comics. So the way these guys move and react will be quite different from the way they appear in comics.

Imagine Thor vs Superman in a melee battle, does anyone think that Supes (even if he's not blitzing) won't be the guy with the quicker reflexes, the greater mobility?

Watch Pacquiao vs Margarito and you'd get a good idea of the reflexes advantage Supes would have over many of his peers in that type of scenario.

Even without blitzing he'll land 3 to 4 punches for every one for his opponent in a close melee fight.

Originally posted by Allankles
I get that, but something like speed is a purely physical quality, it is not as esoteric as Thor BFr'ing Hulk. Does a speedy boxer stop being speedy when he gets tagged?

Of course not, he can get tagged but he's still a speedy boxer and that will show up in the fight, for as long as the fight goes.

It's still an ability he has and will use when absolutely necessary. I just feel like in character he doesn't for the most of the time anyway feel it's necessary. Say if someone is about to fall off a cliff and he's fighting someone he will definitely use it.

This is the only problem I see as these characters in the right situations will these exotic or rarely seen powers when they need to. It just becomes a question of when and how often.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I realize the difference but him even attacking right out of the gate in this manner really contradicts his character's history. Now people are going to say the plot but like existere brought up we only have the characters because of the plot so it's a given. I've always thought when anyone starts discounting this or that then it's not really the comic character it's their version of what he or she is capable of.

I think him getting tagged happens all the time so to treat the few times where he is going well past those levels and ignore his jla appearances as well during a fight is taking the character out of it and just focusing on his absolute best showings, only.

I get how the rules are I've just always tried to argue what happens more often than not in comics. To me just doing a powerset their absolute best feats only should be a cbr flash or cbr surfer.

That's just me. I think this really cuts right down the middle of kmc here with where people stand but smurph hit the nail on the head which is how I've always tried to debate but this will always be murky.

Now I try to do this fairly but say if Superman is taking on Thor I don't see Superman using speed nor do I see Thor ever attempting to godblast or soul suck him.

I don't expect the rules to change I do think a thread that touches upon this is ripe for discussion as this thread has been surprisingly civil and it's at 15 pages now. I can't recall a debate with as many possibilities to flame each other has been civil thus far.

i thought the rules were that the characters are fighting at full potential but still in character. this rule should automatically discredit any and all arguments of speed blitz once the bell rings if that character, 90% of the time does not speed blitz of the bat.

Originally posted by Allankles
When we talk about forum fights we are taking the comic out of the equation - to a significant degree. We're putting these characters in a 3 dimensional scenario, free of the still picture 2 dimensional comics. So the way these guys move and react will be quite different from the way they appear in comics.

Imagine Thor vs Superman in a melee battle, does anyone think that Supes (even if he's not blitzing) won't be the guy with the quicker reflexes, the greater mobility?

Watch Pacquiao vs Margarito and you'd get a good idea of the reflexes advantage Supes would have over many of his peers in that type of scenario.

Even without blitzing he'll land 3 to 4 punches for every one for his opponent in a close melee fight.

but still they're in character. their character or personality would dictate how they act or fight.

actually, thats a good analogy, Pacaquia is indeed faster than Margarito, but in no way is he so overwhelmingly fast that margarito would just stand there looking like a statue. (much like how some posters claim that thor would look like a statue to superman which is, in all honesty, a bunch of crap)

Originally posted by gogogadgetgo
i thought the rules were that the characters are fighting at full potential but still in character. this rule should automatically discredit any and all arguments of speed blitz once the bell rings if that character, 90% of the time does not speed blitz of the bat.

I will give one example of how a cbr fight is just ignoring the characters. They look at gladiator as mush faster than most other elite top tiers to the point Thor doesn't stand a chancew, Hulk yeah right he gets owned before he blinks, hell not even Superman or even Superboy Prime as I found out are too slow to keep up with him.

It's asinine and ignore all of these characters entire histories and the way Gladiator fights based off a feat where he was going 100 times the speed of light. It's laughable but the mods and the board buys into it and these outcomes are already predecided which makes debate futile. If you go against the status quo hello ban.

If you stop by there though I rarely if ever do anymore you will see hardly any comic book vs. debates on comic book characters since the outcomes have already been decided.

Originally posted by carver9
Agree 100%. It would actually make everything balanced if you ask me.

When you have people saying that Ironman can beat the entire xmen when in comics, something completely different happens... then its pretty obvious people are basing thing straight from powerset.

When you have people saying Hyperion would get a 10/10 against Hulk when in a comic he has been crushed by Hulk everytime they faced each other, its based completely off of powerset.

Giving weight to power set often helps to defeat lazy ass debate tactics because it actually requires people to know what the hell they're talking about. Too often I've seen one character get over on another simply based on name.

Now that's not to say that power set only debating doesn't allow for laziness, because obviously it does. The speedblitz combo to KO argument is a perfect example of that as these things tend to be a bit more nuanced. Nonetheless, the days of a guy winning based on name and/or rote characterization are over. Either know what you're talking about or stay the hell out of the debate.

In closing, powerset anchored by on panel general characterization is a happy medium for me. And honestly, here on kmc, it ends up playing out that way more often then not, which is fine by me.

Originally posted by dmills
[B]I disagree. What the hell is the point of debating any of this then? If all we have to do us look at the comic throw downs, then the entire premise of vs forums becomes redundant.

Giving weight to power set often helps to defeat lazy ass debate tactics because it actually requires people to know what the hell they're talking about. Too often I've seen one character get over on another simply based on name.

Powerset

vs.

Powerset plus Personality

Where did anybody suggest winning based on name?

Originally posted by gogogadgetgo
i thought the rules were that the characters are fighting at full potential but still in character. this rule should automatically discredit any and all arguments of speed blitz once the bell rings if that character, 90% of the time does not speed blitz of the bat.

In essence that's powerset anchored by general characterization. Typically that's how these debates end up going down. That's the way it should be imo.

Originally posted by Existere
What?

Powerset

vs.

Powerset plus Personality

Where did anybody suggest winning based on name?

Originally posted by gogogadgetgo
but still they're in character. their character or personality would dictate how they act or fight.

actually, thats a good analogy, Pacaquia is indeed faster than Margarito, but in no way is he so overwhelmingly fast that margarito would just stand there looking like a statue. (much like how some posters claim that thor would look like a statue to superman which is, in all honesty, a bunch of crap)

Not at all. He simply is that much faster than Thor. And Thor has no feats to argue he can even touch Superman.

I agree, Thor combat speed is not even remotely comparable to supermans.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
I agree, Thor combat speed is not even remotely comparable to supermans.

I agree, Thor combat speed isn't close to Supermans and during battle, I would give Superman the first 3 or 4 hits but Superman isn't unhittable. Thor WILL hit him... anyone saying otherwise is being ridiculous.

Superman has rebuilt an entire city in 2 panels. What was basically a second, or less. Hell, even before you could blink. Thor has NOTHING on that level. He can dodge lightning easily.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Superman has rebuilt an entire city in 2 panels. What was basically a second, or less. Hell, even before you could blink. Thor has NOTHING on that level. He can dodge lightning easily.

Really? I thought it was more. Still, it's far more than anyone save Flash has ever done.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree, Thor combat speed isn't close to Supermans and during battle, I would give Superman the first 3 or 4 hits but Superman isn't unhittable. Thor WILL hit him... anyone saying otherwise is being ridiculous.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Superman has rebuilt an entire city in 2 panels. What was basically a second, or less. Hell, even before you could blink. Thor has NOTHING on that level. He can dodge lightning easily.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Really? I thought it was more. Still, it's far more than anyone save Flash has ever done.

That's............dubious at best. Given that marvel kind of ignores speed, or at least doesn't have it the way DC does. 😂

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
I disagree. If you go by showing Superman is significantly faster then Thor. And could land far more then 3 or 4 hits. The only thing stoping him would be cis.