Manchester Black vs Gladiator

Originally posted by 753
weakened from what? coldcast said he was going to die and I think SM himself says his electrons were flying off or maybe that was coldcast too.

I believe he just escaped the blast with superspeed at the very last moment, the wounds had already piled up. MB was also stupid to have dropped the TK field arround them and hat was a moron, he could have soloed from what was implied.

Weakened by Coldcast's AoE attack (which he probably couldn't do more than once as he has mentioned other times that he has trouble after big expenditures like that, so if Supes hadn't rushed in like a jackass, all would've been cool 🙂 ).

It was actually Black who apologized for Coldcast's High-frequency neutrino wash "stopping Superman's electrons from flowing". Nowhere is it implied he would've died.

No, he didn't escape the blast dude, he's right there in the middle of it in the pic I posted, clear as day, and he's really banged up in the next pages where he shows up so it's pretty clear he ate the full thing.

Coldcast's big boom wasn't the "proper" big boom to take Supes out, but -now- he would know what is the proper big boom (supes himself taught him meanwhile).

Aaaanyway, back to the topic at hand, this is about just Black vs. Glads, not the entire Elite. Someone mentioned earlier that Black used TK to go hand to hand with Superman.

I'd just like it known that Manchester Black has never once fought Superman hand to hand. The only such showing was Superman's imagination. Not an actual fight. And Black still got owned even in that 🙂

I'd just like it known that Manchester Black has never once fought Superman hand to hand. The only such showing was Superman's imagination. Not an actual fight. And Black still got owned even in that 🙂

yep. you're right. i was wrong on that point. 👆

right on everything else. (and in my defense i hedged by saying he was able to get into supes's head...) 😄

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
Weakened by Coldcast's AoE attack (which he probably couldn't do more than once as he has mentioned other times that he has trouble after big expenditures like that, so if Supes hadn't rushed in like a jackass, all would've been cool 🙂 ).

It was actually Black who apologized for Coldcast's High-frequency neutrino wash "stopping Superman's electrons from flowing". Nowhere is it implied he would've died.

No, he didn't escape the blast dude, he's right there in the middle of it in the pic I posted, clear as day, and he's really banged up in the next pages where he shows up so it's pretty clear he ate the full thing.

Coldcast's big boom wasn't the "proper" big boom to take Supes out, but -now- he would know what is the proper big boom (supes himself taught him meanwhile).

Aaaanyway, back to the topic at hand, this is about just Black vs. Glads, not the entire Elite. Someone mentioned earlier that Black used TK to go hand to hand with Superman.

I'd just like it known that Manchester Black has never once fought Superman hand to hand. The only such showing was Superman's imagination. Not an actual fight. And Black still got owned even in that 🙂

? that was the blast I was refering to. the one that incapactiated him. nowhere is it implied? really? it's clear as day if you ask me.

SM already knew what the attack was about on the second time he faced it. he was in the middle of it when coldcast initiates the blast, but he was gone once the blast was done. when do you suppose he took off? after tanking the blast that had previously incaopctiated him or right when it was initated, since he knew what it was, movign so fast coldcast didnt realize he had fled, which would be easy for his superspeed.

Why would MB go h2h with him? he still TK crippled him with the aneurisma. MB atempted to make superman break his own code to destroy his character, he never tried shutting down his mind and MB offed himself at the end of that bullshit

the high frequency neutrino wash and that finisher coldcast put on him are two totally different things. one keeps him from moving and the other damages...

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
the high frequency neutrino wash and that finisher coldcast put on him are two totally different things. one keeps him from moving and the other damages...

Originally posted by leonidas
tp in comics (as pg demonstrated) is OFTEN ftl in comics..... and it wouldn't have to be in this case. and of COURSE carver, everyone knows you think glads>>superman and everyone knows how you think this would go. that is YOUR opinion. i was looking for unbiased opinions. i still think black waxes him.

Depends on who the TP is, and who the speedster is.

Case in point:

This is an interesting debate for me, speedster vs. telepathy/telekinesis. I might start a topic specifically on this issue, gathering scans showing who would win. Personally I think it depends on the tp/tk-er. If it's someone like MM who is used to thinking at huge speeds (so as to avoid smashing into buildings and such when he's moving at superspeed), he should be able to always get the first attack off. If it's someone like Exodus/Xavier/Manchester Black who are effectively human, the speedster should win IMO.

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
Depends on who the TP is, and who the speedster is.

Case in point:

This is an interesting debate for me, speedster vs. telepathy/telekinesis. I might start a topic specifically on this issue, gathering scans showing who would win. Personally I think it depends on the tp/tk-er. If it's someone like MM who is used to thinking at huge speeds (so as to avoid smashing into buildings and such when he's moving at superspeed), he should be able to [b]always get the first attack off. If it's someone like Exodus/Xavier/Manchester Black who are effectively human, the speedster should win IMO. [/B]

you're right on about it being an interesting debate. it's come up (and i've actually debated it) a few times. i want to say there WAS a thread about tp vs superspeed, but i could be wrong. it may just have come up so many times in the past i THOUGHT it was a thread.

you're right too about it being inconsistent. it seems a plot device, tbh. in that sense it may NEVER be settled. another example (though slightly different) would be mags affecting that bullet from light years away. clearly the speed of his power far exceeds light. if you open the thread you'll find dozens of examples to support both sides methinks. be fun though. 🙂

Originally posted by leonidas
you're right on about it being an interesting debate. it's come up (and i've actually debated it) a few times. i want to say there WAS a thread about tp vs superspeed, but i could be wrong. it may just have come up so many times in the past i THOUGHT it was a thread.

you're right too about it being inconsistent. it seems a plot device, tbh. in that sense it may NEVER be settled. another example (though slightly different) would be mags affecting that bullet from light years away. clearly the speed of his power far exceeds light. if you open the thread you'll find dozens of examples to support both sides methinks. be fun though. 🙂

Originally posted by 753
yes, magnetic and gravitational information apparently travel with infinite speed in marvel. like wise, chuck cans project his astral form acros the universe instantyl. however, the problem lies in the initial activation time for these powers, rather than on their speed of functioning

fair enough. it goes both ways though. glads has to THINK "BLITZ". imo black would have time to react. perhaps he could not attack glads offensively, but i think he would likely create an illusion immediately, and THEN go on the offensive with his tp or tk. i see no reason why he couldn't simply cause a massive hemmorage in glad's brain--similar to what he did to kal but on a much larger scale. or perhaps trap him (like he did supes) in an illusionary world filled with radiation that weakens him perhaps (he could get that from glad's mind) or just whittle away at his confidence and finish him in a number of ways. he MAY not be cassandra nova, but he is certainly extremely powerful. based on his speed, i'd say glads might win a couple, but without a blitz, the more i think about this, the more i think he's completely f'd in this match.

yes, but the thing is that people assume blitzers have superspeed turned on by default, that they pereeceive everything in slow motion and so can outreact everybody else that doesnt have superspeed of their own.

it doesnt matter. MB wins as gladiator will not blitz him instantly with CIS on

Originally posted by leonidas
fair enough. it goes both ways though. glads has to THINK "BLITZ". imo black would have time to react. perhaps he could not attack glads offensively, but i think he would likely create an illusion immediately, and THEN go on the offensive with his tp or tk. i see no reason why he couldn't simply cause a massive hemmorage in glad's brain--similar to what he did to kal but on a much larger scale. or perhaps trap him (like he did supes) in an illusionary world filled with radiation that weakens him perhaps (he could get that from glad's mind) or just whittle away at his confidence and finish him in a number of ways. he MAY not be cassandra nova, but he is certainly extremely powerful. based on his speed, i'd say glads might win a couple, but without a blitz, the more i think about this, the more i think he's completely f'd in this match.

The general consensus I've found is that speedsters think at the speed they can move at. Otherwise they'd run/fly into walls. I'm not talking about complex thought mind you, but run 'n punch isn't complex, it's about as base as it gets.

'chester's definitely got the chops to create an illusion, though don't confuse the one in Endless Battle with something he made, it was just Supes' own imagination. He has however shown the ability to:

- shield Lex from MM's mind probes
- make an illusion in Superman's mind to make him think Lois was dead, going so far as to overwrite Supes' own impressive senses
- he overwrote Superman's image on Imperiex probes in DD's mind.

He also did a bunch of telepathic crap to the Elite team, and literally hundreds of villains in Endless Battle, including fixing Bizarro and Banshee's minds at the same time and keeping them sane.

But all of these things were planned out, carried out from a safe distance, with a lot of thought going behind it. He's only been shown in an actual battle situation once, and in that one battle he couldn't even get a read on Superman's whereabouts, nevermind have time to formulate a plan, nor carry any out.

To be fair, supes had planned that fight out

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
To be fair, supes had planned that fight out

Doesn't change 'chester's reaction time (or lack thereof).

It could have affected his ability to find him, if supes prepped for that

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
The general consensus I've found is that speedsters think at the speed they can move at. Otherwise they'd run/fly into walls. I'm not talking about complex thought mind you, but run 'n punch isn't complex, it's about as base as it gets.

'chester's definitely got the chops to create an illusion, though don't confuse the one in Endless Battle with something he made, it was just Supes' own imagination. He has however shown the ability to:

- shield Lex from MM's mind probes
- make an illusion in Superman's mind to make him think Lois was dead, going so far as to overwrite Supes' own impressive senses
- he overwrote Superman's image on Imperiex probes in DD's mind.

He also did a bunch of telepathic crap to the Elite team, and literally hundreds of villains in Endless Battle, including fixing Bizarro and Banshee's minds at the same time and keeping them sane.

But all of these things were planned out, carried out from a safe distance, with a lot of thought going behind it. He's only been shown in an actual battle situation once, and in that one battle he couldn't even get a read on Superman's whereabouts, nevermind have time to formulate a plan, nor carry any out.

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
Weakened by Coldcast's AoE attack (which he probably couldn't do more than once as he has mentioned other times that he has trouble after big expenditures like that, so if Supes hadn't rushed in like a jackass, all would've been cool 🙂 ).

It was actually Black who apologized for Coldcast's High-frequency neutrino wash "stopping Superman's electrons from flowing". Nowhere is it implied he would've died.

I actually agreed with Black on some of his rhetoric.

After all, Superman can afford to stop bad guys while not killing anyone thanks to his ridiculous powers. For people without super speed and such, and when dealing with high enough stakes, it's not as realistic an option.

But of course, Superman wouldn't be Superman if he agreed to that...

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
He's only been shown in an actual battle situation once, and in that one battle he couldn't even get a read on Superman's whereabouts, nevermind have time to formulate a plan, nor carry any out.

Again, Martian Manhunter couldn't get a fix on Superman either.

The way Ostrander described it, this is simply something unique to Superman. No knock on Black for having similar problems.

Originally posted by 753
just for the sake of stablishing a standard: omega kid was stated to form and organize thoughts at the rate of 30 million per second, he had no physical superspeed and his only power was telepathy. could he handle someone like superman intent on blitzing him? could he mindrape him in time?

I'd say definitely. 👆

Originally posted by cdtm
Again, Martian Manhunter couldn't get a fix on Superman either.

The way Ostrander described it, this is simply something unique to Superman. No knock on Black for having similar problems.

Not sure which issue you're referring to, need context (my memory's not great). It's not necessarily a Superman thing, Grodd's had trouble pinpointing Flash as well. It's a speed thing.

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
The general consensus I've found is that speedsters think at the speed they can move at. Otherwise they'd run/fly into walls. I'm not talking about complex thought mind you, but run 'n punch isn't complex, it's about as base as it gets.

😂

you sound like me. it's an argument i've made in the past that I'VE found most DISAGREE with--without proof. there are no instances--to my knowledge--of an insta-blitz from glads. he has to first perceive THEN attack. if what you said was true, thor--who can fly at multiples of c--would ALSO have this superspeed-thinking ability. like you, i've argued your stance makes sense theoretically. but practically? it carries with it a burden of proof that doesn't exist i don't think. imo glads COULD blitz, but he would first need to realize he had to, and there's no proof he could think at superspeeds. i'll concede if there is, of course. 🙂

'chester's definitely got the chops to create an illusion, though don't confuse the one in Endless Battle with something he made, it was just Supes' own imagination.

yep, but black was the one who trapped clark in that imaginary world. or at least held him there. if he can do that to someone with a will like clark, i can't see it NOT working on glads.

But all of these things were planned out, carried out from a safe distance, with a lot of thought going behind it. He's only been shown in an actual battle situation once, and in that one battle he couldn't even get a read on Superman's whereabouts, nevermind have time to formulate a plan, nor carry any out.

fair enough. but in THIS case he would know exactly where glads is. if he formed an illusion, glads would go for it imo, and THAT would give black the time to go on the offensive i think.

again, i can see glads taking a couple based on speed, but a heavy majority to black.

Originally posted by leonidas
😂

you sound like me. it's an argument i've made in the past that I'VE found most DISAGREE with--without proof. there are no instances--to my knowledge--of an insta-blitz from glads. he has to first perceive THEN attack. if what you said was true, thor--who can fly at multiples of c--would ALSO have this superspeed-thinking ability. like you, i've argued your stance makes sense theoretically. but practically? it carries with it a burden of proof that doesn't exist i don't think. imo glads COULD blitz, but he would first need to realize he had to, and there's no proof he could think at superspeeds. i'll concede if there is, of course. 🙂

Well it's been flat out stated for Superman, mr. Majestic, Flash and Quicksilver numerous times that they think at superspeed. I think it's silly since there are already such instances to demand proof for each and every single speedster 😂

Originally posted by leonidas
yep, but black was the one who trapped clark in that imaginary world. or at least held him there. if he can do that to someone with a will like clark, i can't see it NOT working on glads.

Dude, there's no indication that the "fight" was done or kept by chester, he was just "watching" it when Supes tells him to "read his mind". He did however maintain the illusion of Lois being dead, which is pretty impressive.

Originally posted by leonidas
fair enough. but in THIS case he would know exactly where glads is. if he formed an illusion, glads would go for it imo, and THAT would give black the time to go on the offensive i think.

again, i can see glads taking a couple based on speed, but a heavy majority to black.

Maybe, possibly. For the 1st fight perhaps. Out of 10? 9 would go to Glads after he realizes the guy's a tp-er. Or at least "should".