Mortal Kombat 9 vs. Twilight Princess

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. I can see why you would think that. If you never played a Zelda game. Show me an MK character disintegrating someone with a punch. Show me an MK character capable of lifting and throwing Dangoro like a basketball (You can't, I already know this, don't bother). Are you serious? Look at the video just posted. I love that video. Quan, Tsung, and Raiden are sloooooooooooooooooooooow. The execution scene alone in TP makes Ganondorf much faster than any of them. Try harder.

Laughable, what about Shaolin Monks? What about MK 9? What about Amargeddon? You think that's the only time they've fought? They have much quicker displays. And in general they're more mobile, more versatile and show more devastation with their strikes than either Link (who's destroyed Dorf so many times) or Dorf himself. Raiden just disintegrated Shang Tsung in that attack. He also has pyromancy that can turn his foes to cinders. They pulverize bones with their punches alone. People like Quanchi post MK 4 can disintegrate beings with through amulets like Shinok's amulet.

Originally posted by NemeBro

2. Have you shown proof all the MK cast can resist the polymorphing or the soul attacks? I would imagine Tsung, Khan, those type of guys can, but those are exceptions, unless I am forgetting something.

Raiden can protect the army as he's demonstrated an ability to protect mortals from Outworld's spirit magic. Worst case scenario, some of the army find they're not immune to twilight, they teleport out, Shao Khan his sorcerers and shadow priest open portals into twilight to bring Twilis to them so that they can siphon their ability to resist twilight. Their spirit magic will allow them to gain the Twilis abilities if for some reason their spirit magic is ineffective.

3. No u.

Originally posted by NemeBro
4. Can you show me this though?

Show you what. Raiden's attack was posted here. Shang Tsung's feat was repeated again in Shaolin Monks which is a repeat of MK 1 and 2. I'm on a mobile, find Shaolin Monks on youtube.

Originally posted by NemeBro
5. Only Ganondorf's "non-combat feats" can be used, you know, in combat. Ganondorf in combat is completely immune to all assaults that are not done with the Master Sword or Light Arrows. Oh, and he is also stronger, faster, and much more durable against MK characters.

Eeh! That's because that's all Link and co. have. His been harmed by other weapons besides those, the big sword made by the Gorons can harm him too. And someone mentioned the megaton hammer.

Originally posted by NemeBro
6. Better combat feats. "Combat feats" is a butthurt cop-out that says you cannot deal with the feats that portray Ganondorf as superior to MK characters, so you have to grasp at the straw that technically not all are from combat. He is faster. He is stronger. He is more durable. He is more versatile. He is arguably more powerful.

You guys are the ones that seem butthurt. MK characters are actually faster. They can hover, fly, shoot kicks and punches from tremendous distances. They can teleport at will and instantly to any place in combat ala Nightcrawler. They have better striking feats. His durability is questionable, he never resists the swords or magic that's directed at him, he has no immunity to magic. You guys overrating the Midna feat is all you got as far his durability goes.

His feats outside of combat don't compare to the MK characters. If we went by combat feats alone he's not superior. By non combat feats he's on the level of Quan Chi, Shang Tsung and below Shao Khan, Raiden and Shinnok.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Oh this reminds me: Mortal Kombat 9 feats only please. 🙂 If we are subscribing to Twilight Princess being the only allowable Zelda game, then I ask you do the same.

I'm not the one subscribing to that. You can bring every Dorf feat you can scrape, he' still below the MK top guns overall.

Originally posted by The Scenario
1. Then we agree.

2. He appears without a body, and we see it separated into particles on screen.

3. Lying on the ground while his body disintegrates? Then appears in his bodiless spirit form. Yeah, that's a revival.

Ganondorf has revived an extinct species, including several giant monsters. That's in addition to reviving Zant endlessly as well as Stallord and the undead armies. Ganondorfs armies include dragons, too, as well as flying Lizalfos and Darknuts. Plus the Shadow Beast apocalypse. What can Shokan and Tarkata even do?

I think it's more akin to Sith Lord doing this. They have more than enough power to do it, is the point. If Midna can lift a bridge with TK, ripping off arms would not even be a problem. She could just crush him or smash him into the ground with that much force, arm ripping is not necessary when hitting him with a bridge works. Zant has also, in fact demonstrated TK of the "smash into ground" and "hold at the arms" variety, and Ganondorf can throw Midna across a room.

Invisible? No, what I'm mean is that Midna can render herself able to pass through objects. If you want invisible, Midna can do that and disguise herself, not to mention teleport others, in addition to herself. Midna is fully capable of BFRing. She's shown a lot more power than what I've seen of Mortal Kombat.

Hyrule's army sucks. This is fact. Zant's army, on the other hand? Pretty hard to take down when they transform their kills into Shadows Beasts and Zant is more than capable of doing the same to an entire population. That's in addition to the fact that Shadow Beasts can revive each other with a scream. Won't take long until Mortal Kombat's army is overrun by Shadow Beasts and starts turning against their leaders. Heck, Shadow Beasts aren't the only danger, since merely entering twilight can turn you into a harmless soul or yet another twilight monster. Not to mention the Self-reviving Stalfos, paralyzing Redeads, and soul stealing Poes on the loose. Oh, and don't forget the giants like Stallord, Armogohma, or dragons like Argorok.

Oh, and Gorons. Can't forget Gorons.

If they've resisted soul stealing, then sure, they can enter. Might get transformed, though. Plus, you shouldn't count on their armies getting through unscathed unless every soldier resists soul steals, and even then, they have to worry about being transformed into Shadow Beasts. As a note, animalistic or savage creatures tend to get turned into Shadow Beasts (Bulblins, giant birds, rats, etc.) as opposed to the soul thing with humans.

...Bokoblins? I dunno, the spin attack one shots them pretty well. Besides, you're talking game mechanic right now. Go back to an enemy from the beginning of the game and Link will one-shot all of them.

Link can lift several tons, so he's not a fair example, either. Mike Tyson and Ronnie Coleman are still limited to human levels, whereas Link and Superman are far beyond that. If Link is lifting 30 tons, you think he'll hit with less force than Mike Tyson?

Based on strength alone he's lifted a multi ton rock monster. It does not take multiple tons of force to remove a human head from the body, much less. Pretty simple. The weapons simply amplify that strength.

But it's not an actual ability since it didn't canonically happen.

By "just the one" I was talking about your one example of Link displaying less than human strength. Namely, the Ball and Chain as compared to cutting armor, throwing Gorons, throwing Dangoro, lifting chandeliers, pushing metal blocks, smashing boulders, throwing Blizzeta, etc, etc. Link consistently has shown super strength more often than he has shown human strength.

It's called estimation and calculation. We compare Link to the size of, say, Dangoro, in order to get a figure for how large Dangoro is. Then we use the proven density of rock to calculate how much a rock of Dangoro's size would weigh. Then I just cut it in half or 2/5ths to account for how much rock is part of Dangoro. It's all estimated and as close as it is possibly to get. Multiple people have math'd it and gotten 30 tons or above for Dangoro, and simply looking at him you can tell he weighs multiple tons. It's not guessing, far from it, we're just getting a minimum value for Link's demonstrated strength. We have a great many clues, and they all contribute to these conclusions.

It puts numbers we can compare to figure out who's stronger. Maybe we don't need to for all comparisons; I mean, it's rather obvious who's stronger between a guy that ripped someone's arms of vs. a guy that threw a giant rock monsters five times his size. (Hint: it's the guy throwing giant rock monsters.)

Depends on the feats. Link's taken an axe to the face that knocked out and tossed a boar, as well as getting fired out of a cannon. That's good durability, certainly far greater than a human. Might just resist some MK punches. While at the same time he's far stronger than his opponents and could cut right through them.

Observations, yes, guesses, no. Tell who's stronger: arm rip or toss giant rock monster?

He got to the other side of the room before Link could raise his sword. That is faster than what MK fighters have shown. Unlike Carl Lewis, however, Zant also knows how to fight. Bad example. Try Bruce Lee vs. a sped up Jackie Chan.

2.Listen the only two times he attempts to be revived is when the triforce of power glows. Once he comes back and the second time he does not. Pretty simple.

3.No, the game makes it very clear when he needs power from the triforce. Only happened twice despite you really wanting to make more of what happened than what actually happened.

Dorf has one dragon in the game. The rest of the grunts he has can be easily dealt with by one man, Link. This isn't an impressive army nor it is portrayed as such. The hyrulian army is also shown to be incompetent and fearful. Nothing more. Quan Chi creating Scorpion and Noob shows he can create in Scorpion a highly skilled/assassin who is unkillable that wields hellfire. Quan Chi's exploits are far more impressive and mk's armies are staggering compared to what we see from twili. Tarkatans are the race of Baraka the have long blades coming out of their arms and the shokans are half dragon/half human four armed beings with insane strength. Kintaro is half human/half tiger as well.

You need to show her doing so then to make a valid claim. Lifting something and destroying something are two totally different things. If I lift a 45 pound weight that doesn't mean I have the power to physically destroy a 5 pound dumbbell.

You haven't seen much from mk. Kain from legacy of kain can also turn himself intangible to pass through objects but this doesn't make him into a powerset/unkillable character like you're trying to do here with all zelda characters. The problem I have with you is you don't play the games you just argue for one side and are completely ignorant on the other side. You shouldn't enter debates you're completely ignorant of on your own.

I've seen Link tear through shadow beats as well as Midna pre powered up. They aren't that formidable at all. If Link can mow through them as an army they are terrible.

Most of the grunts like the stalfos are weaklings compared to the monsters seen in mk so they are hardly even worth a thought since in numbers they can't even defeat Link. Raiden has shown the power to protect those souls he wants to so the mk elite are taken care of. Their are far more elite mk characters than there are zelda characters also.

Gorons only look impressive when wrestling around or using their weight advantage but mkers aren't trying to just get by them they are going to kill them. The shokans have four arms as well as the strength necessary to best them or at worst negate each other. I personally think the shokans would eat them for breakfast.

Mk characters have greater magic at their disposal imo. A new dlc character is supposed to be created by Shao Kahn from the blood of bested opponents in Skarlet. His magic also brought Shang Tsung back from death to join his side.

Link can hurt weaker enemies but the the greater/more skilled enemies he can't just oneshot. Like I said it depends on his sword strike at which body part and where just like an mker's attack on Link.

Prove Link can lift several tons. The example is fine since the mk fighters seem to have greater combat strength power feats as opposed to link's lifting feats.

Prove the monster weighed this much. I don't think Link can do so without the sword whereas mkers can. You can't prove Link can whereas I can prove mkers can.

If Sub Zero has freezing powers yet he never freezes Shang Tsung that doesn't mean he can't freeze Shang Tsung only that he hasn't. It's like saying Link can't shoot an arrow into someone's eye because canonically he has never done so. We go by abilities and canon. We don't ignore either.

Link is stronger than any human. I agree but he's not superior to mkers strength. It's impossible to prove either but we both agree they can hurt/kill each other so let's move on.

It's guesswork with no real numbers to it thus invalid. End of story.

Link can still be hurt by the axe. Link can be hurt by a boomerang but sure in a cutscene the axe didn't kill him he shrugged it off but at no point can you as a character just let an axe hit you. It's you once again looking too far into one freakish attack on Link and ignoring his portrayal in the game. He will be hurt by mk punches since they can rip people in half. Link doesn't cut through them unless he hits them properly but I doubt it since they are highly skilled in combat compared to the month or so of training Link has.

Arm rip off to me is superior to a feat only made possible by boots. If Link could throw the goron without any item it'd be a lot more impressive than needing a boot.

Zant was talking and caught them unaware we see when Link fights him he can fight/perceive and win the fight so even against Link you're taking it out of context once again.

Originally posted by Allankles
They resisted twilight based on being the only characters with magic, you know the divine magic of the triforce plus Midna's twili magic. Guess what MK characters have magic, but Shang Tsung can still instant soul steal. Shao Khan can also soul steal from other mystical or magical beings. Having magical or divine power won't protect them from a soul steal by itself.

And given that magic alone was the necessary ingredient to resist twilight... Furthermore there are many ways MK characters can resist twilight as I've said. Worst case scenario: if twilight is discovered to affect them despite having someone like Raiden's soul protection. Shao Khan and co. can steal Twili souls, granting them their ability to resist twilight polymoprhing.

That's...never even hinted at, sorry. True, the Triforce is the thing protecting them from twilight, but nowhere is it stated, implied, or even really indicated at all that it is the mere presence of magic. They have protection because they are chosen ones, it's not like the original Twili had this resistance. Behold Midna's history lesson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMz6M8v0CfI#t=26s

"What do you think happened to the magic wielders who tried to rule the Sacred Realm?"

"Its denizens became shadows that could not mingle with light."

Magic did not save the Interlopers, and the twilight eventually turned them into the Twili, beings that die when they step into sunlight. True, after a few hundred (thousand?) years they seem to have built up a resistance to twilight, but even with magic, they did not have that originally.

I've already been over this... Raiden's attack was clearly more devastating, furthermore he was attacking a being that was immune to magic. Dorf has no immunity to magic....so.

Clearly more devastating. Hyrule Castle was turned into a cloud of smoke, this is the exact same thing, regardless of how flashy the lightshow was. Both castles are simply gone, you can't claim one attack did more damage when the results are identical.

Doesn't really matter one way or the other, the facts a we don't see him tanking any attack. Nor do we even see the nature of the attack he supposedly tanked. I'm not grasping at straws in saying that. Furthermore, the attack was nowhere near as impressive as Raiden's, there's no two ways about it.

That fact is we know everything that happened immediately before and after the explosion, and suggesting anything different is pure speculation. We know Ganondorf was inside when Midna attacked, we saw Midna attack, heck, we saw Midna aim directly at Ganondorf and swing down her trident. Suggesting that he was not hit when all evidence points to the fact that he was, is just trying to dismiss the feat on pure guesswork. If you want to say Ganondorf repelled it, show the part that indicates Ganondrf doing it. If you want to claim it was two forces colliding, show me the other force, as we only saw one, which was Midna. Your theories have no basis, I'm sorry, I don't see anything that indicates it was blocked (Ganondorf putting up a barrier, for example) or a collision (Ganondorf's attacking as well, for example.)

What we do have, however, is Midna powering up and attacking, and Ganondorf staring intensely in Midna's direction as she plunges her trident down in his direction. The castle then explodes. Where do you see anything else happening that was not simply made up?

The point is there's a number of ways that blast could have happened and a number of ways it could have resulted. Dorf "tanking" the blast is just one of the ways it could have happened. The point is we don't know for sure one way or the other because we don't see anything. More importantly, it was not anywhere close to Raiden's attack in terms of devastation and unlike Dorf, we know the Dragon King was immune to magic.

We saw enough. Compare Raiden to Midna. We saw Raiden charging his blast, we saw Midna putting on the Fused Shadows and transforming. We saw Onaga moving towards Raiden, we saw Ganondorf glare at Midna. We saw Raiden unleash the the blast, we saw Midna bring down her trident. You know what the difference is? Mortal Kombat has a narrator, otherwise, every single action of these characters mirrors the other exactly. Both castle were completely vaporized. Unlike Onaga, we have statements that only the Master Sword or Light Arrows can even hurt Ganondorf.

Not much of a shockwave, not much debris etc etc We see some stone fly in the air and the smoke obscures the rest of devastation. Anyway you could just say the devs didn't do a good job of showing an impressive blast radius and/or blast force. Either way visually it doesn't look as impressive. Don't see why there's any debate over this. Raiden's attack looked more devastating. Maybe Midna's was as devastating, but it certainly doesn't look it.

Link and Zelda were actually very far away, what with Hyrule Field being huge. We saw huge amounts of stone get flung in the air and the rest is just smoke. The blast radius was again obscured because of the vantage point being so far away, and Hyrule Castle being extremely huge, to the point it can be seen almost anywhere in Hyrule. The point here being that all that was left of Hyrule Castle was a smoking ruin; it simply was not there anymore, and a small light show does not change that fact.

Not only did Raiden's attack look more impressive he was attacking a being that was actually immune to magic at the time. Dorf has never been immune to magic. So it is wrong to suggest he'd tank Raiden's attack based on inconclusive evidence. A cutscene where we don't actually see Dorf himself absorb any attack, or even how the battle played out exactly.

Looking impressive doesn't really mean anything, since Hyrule Castle was still destroyed. It simply wasn't done with a flash, so much as a boom. Further, Ganondorf has pretty much always been immune to anything not specifically designed to hurt him, hence the reason for going to get the Master Sword/Light Arrows in the first place, those being stated to be his only weakness. That actually gives a pretty good case seeing as the Fused Shadows are neither holy nor specifically Evil's Bane. Plus, Ganondorf demonstrates his superiority to the Fused Shadows seconds later by crushing them in his hand.

Originally posted by The Scenario
You're not getting it. Without the Triforce of Power, Ganondorf is not the character he is supposed. You're saying that Hal Jordan without his Green Lantern Ring is still the Green Lantern. Technically true, but he's lost the thing that makes him work as a character. You can't have Ganondorf without the Triforce of Power or the Triforce of Power without Ganondorf; they conceptually inseparable. I assume Onaga is not normally immune to magic because he does not normally have that item. Ganondorf always has it, is the difference here. Are you going to call the Green Lantern a plot device? The gem of Cyttorak? The venom symbiote? Fact is, the Triforce of Power is not something you can just take away, like an artifact you only use once. This is more along the lines of standar equipment.

You're doing it again, trying to use gameplay mechanics as evidence. Can you show me an MK character cutting off a limb anywhere except a fatality? They don't just punch people in the game an knock off limbs, their opponent has to swaying around drunkenly while they're yelled at to finish them. Same with Link.

1) Already have, my man. Calculations be valid.
2) Zelda does not usually work like that, as I've told you. However, Link has been seen decapitating enemies and knocking off arms in Skyward Sword trailers and gameplay.

Look, can you honestly say that you think lifting and throwing a giant rock monster shows less strength than ripping off an arm? The numbers are well supported, but they don't really matter right now. Just by looking you tell that Link is much stronger than any Mortal Kombat character.

You're doing the same exact thing. If every Mortal Kombat character can rip off limbs or punch off heads, why don't they when you play the game? Seriously, if you're strong enough to rip your opponent's heart out and you punch him, what happens? Well, in Mortal Kombat, he just flinches a little. If you want to play that card, any MK character punches Link, he just flinches a little, because in game you can't punch off heads until they opponent is just standing still swaying back and forth, not defending themselves. You're trying to act like only the fatalities count and ignore the fight beforehand, or any other context for that matter. Terrible.
You know what happens in Zelda games? Link takes a sword, axe, mace, or spiked ball right to the chest, and gets back up. He gets hit in the face with a flaming arrow, and just flinches. He gets hit by a bomb that blows up boulders, and gets back up. He gets frozen solid and breaks his way out of the ice. He gets set on fire, and keeps going. He gets hit by a magic attack that makes the floor explode, and gets back up. You can play at plants hurting Link all you want, but you forget or ignore one thing: the plants? They deal the same amount of damage as a sword. That's the "portrayal" nonsense you're looking for, and you know what? Maybe that stuff does hurt Link, but it doesn't kill him. You want to play that game, we can do it, it'll just make Link even stronger than the cutscenes imply. See, because according to your in game "portrayal" Link takes damage that should be lethal twenty times over, and doesn't die. A punch from a Goron like Darbus can shatter 10 feet of solid rock, but can he even break Link's arm? No, he can't, because Link is "portrayed" as taking all of that in stride. He'll just lose half a heart.

Proooooooof. Prove he hid in a portal. The evidence actually shows Ganondorf at the spot where the attack is so he was right there when it exploded. Unharmed.

The evidence shows Ganondorf inside when the castle explodes. That's it. Your claim, however, is that Ganondorf hid in a portal, which requires proof. Show me the portal he hid in or your theory is invalid.

Oh, I'll just embrace you and your portrayals. Behold, in this video Ganondorf is hit with the Master sword multiple times and never gets pierced until he's on the ground. Just look at Ganondorf tanking every sword strike that hits him, since he isn't shown as being cut that means he's meant to be portrayed as uncuttable. And Link takes a lot of hits, too, but he's never portrayed as getting cut, so that means he's uncuttable, too!

Aren't gameplay portrayals fun?

Spoiler:
Seriously, though, when Ganondorf removes the sword from his chest during his execution, it has stopped affecting him. He was only impaled before the Triforce of Power; afterwards it did not bother him in the slightest.

What you perceive doesn't matter, though. I have shown you multiple times where Ganondorf has revived himself from total bodily destruction through his spirit form. Having a dead body won't bother him unless you're canceling his power.

They're the same person up to a certain point. It's rather hard to avoid, since I'm positive you're not using only Mortal Kombat 9 to debate.

And he teleports or turns intangible or possesses one of them before they do. Denied. No, seriously, show me him doing this to somebody.

We know exactly where he was, which was next to Midna, the source of the explosion.

Only with fatalities when they aren't defending themselves, though. Ganondorf just grabbed a guy an exploded him.

Should I put up another video where they pretty much do so in a canon fight ? When has Link ever done so ? I think he can cut into an mk fighter with his sword but the whole problem with that is hitting the mk fighter to begin with based off their training/speed/ and strength.

1.You speculated without any real numbers of anything from nintendo. Speculating isn't proving something.

2.That's your problem then because the things I claim mk fighters can do they have done or shown the strength to do. I could care less about skyward sword. we will have that debate when the time comes.

The numbers are maybe agreed upon by others who really try to pin a number to the feats but aren't proven. It isn't valid evidence if it's guesswork. Link's strong just like the mk characters and both can hurt/kill each other.

I don't think mkers are going to punch his head off in a normal punch I think for the most part they'd have to do so against an already defeated Link just like I don't think Link is lopping into their breasts until they are standing still either. If you let the enemies attack you Link dies just like in mk so neither are immune to the attacks since their energy goes down. I honestly don't have a clue how you think. It's odd.

I don't have to prove anything, the castle blew up and we don't see what caused it too, what form dorf was in at the time, or where he was at the moment of impact. All speculation.

We don't know we know he was inside but we don't know where he was at the point of impact when it went down or why it went down. Too many unknown variables but you as a zelda fan are convinced dorf brought it down and can tank it easily without a shred of proof.

Except Dorf is cut and dies from the sword. I think he can tank sword strikes it just depends where like any other mker or Link too for that matter. I mean dorf dies from a sword yet you claim he's uncuttable now.

You can kill dorf or bfr him into unconsciousness. He takes damage and needs to recover. That's the point.

Mk9 uses the events from all previous mk's whereas this dorf has no clue about Link or the master swrod thus his memories are different. Either way I haven't beaten the game so leave the oot references out.

He was teleporting scorpion back after mk 4. His amulet can traverse the realms through portals that's why you see Onaga pick up his amulet after his death in the deception opening as they say reshape the realms as he sees fit.

We see a big head form so he changed forms so we don't know if he tanked it or what caused it. It's funny seeing this feat you have convinced yourself of as so real and me destroying it before your eyes. Feels good.

Dorf exploded one sage, who cares ? Mkers can all do so if they hit their opponents and dorf capitalized on their shock so they definitelly could have done so in the same situation.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Based off of his abilities? You have nothing but speculation to say he used a portal, whereas I have a cutscene showing you exactly where he was when Midna attacked and the castle exploded.

Then why can't he just rearrange his molecules so the swords can't hurt him? Since he obviously does that like he did after his Beast Ganon body was destroyed. That much proves that even if the kill him (after they get past that castle level durability) he'll just make a new body or possess one of theirs.

He can and has several times, namely when his Beast Ganon vody was destroyed and he went to spirit form, then made a new body plus a whole horse out of nowhere. He's even survived death before. People die they are killed, but not Ganondorf.

Let me get this straight. You want Legend of Zelda, a game with no comprehensible voice acting, to give you a narrator it has never had before, just to say that Ganondorf was unharmed by a castle exploding? When we can see with our own eyes that he wasn't?

So he'll have to keep up that protection constantly, I wonder how much it will weaken him. Then, Quan Chi will have to keep making bodies that just keep getting reduced to harmless souls. Nice.

We saw Midna attack. We saw Ganondorf right there. We saw the castle explode. We saw Ganondorf unharmed. These are all facts, anything else you say is speculation, but the event is clearly shown and obvious to any unbiased person.

He does so to change shapes. He can't do so to be uneatable in combat. I've seen comic book characters also with this power but they can still be beaten. How does your mind work ?

Beast dorf wasn't dead or dying hence he didn't need to access the triforce of power he only did twice when he was fatally wounded. Pretty obvious.

Beast dorf was defeated not killed there's a difference, sport.

We don't see the blast hitting him and his powers can change shapes or come out of portals unlike the mk fight where we see exactly what happened without a narrator even having to say it. You threw a hissy because of it so I still showed you up. LOL.

Once they have the protection it's there. I don't foresee Quan Chi remaking many mkers myself personally.

We saw a giant head so it it happened as you said right after he couldn't have had time to change forms. We didn't see what boought the castle down nor did we see where they both were in relation to it.

Originally posted by Allankles
Laughable, what about Shaolin Monks? What about MK 9? What about Amargeddon? You think that's the only time they've fought? They have much quicker displays. And in general they're more mobile, more versatile and show more devastation with their strikes than either Link (who's destroyed Dorf so many times) or Dorf himself. Raiden just disintegrated Shang Tsung in that attack. He also has pyromancy that can turn his foes to cinders. They pulverize bones with their punches alone. People like Quanchi post MK 4 can disintegrate beings with through amulets like Shinok's amulet.

Raiden can protect the army as he's demonstrated an ability to protect mortals from Outworld's spirit magic. Worst case scenario, some of the army find they're not immune to twilight, they teleport out, Shao Khan his sorcerers and shadow priest open portals into twilight to bring Twilis to them so that they can siphon their ability to resist twilight. Their spirit magic will allow them to gain the Twilis abilities if for some reason their spirit magic is ineffective.

Show you what. Raiden's attack was posted here. Shang Tsung's feat was repeated again in Shaolin Monks which is a repeat of MK 1 and 2. I'm on a mobile, find Shaolin Monks on youtube.

Eeh! That's because that's all Link and co. have. His been harmed by other weapons besides those, the big sword made by the Gorons can harm him too. And someone mentioned the megaton hammer.

You guys are the ones that seem butthurt. MK characters are actually faster. They can hover, fly, shoot kicks and punches from tremendous distances. They can teleport at will and instantly to any place in combat ala Nightcrawler. They have better striking feats. His durability is questionable, he never resists the swords or magic that's directed at him, he has no immunity to magic. You guys overrating the Midna feat is all you got as far his durability goes.

His feats outside of combat don't compare to the MK characters. If we went by combat feats alone he's not superior. By non combat feats he's on the level of Quan Chi, Shang Tsung and below Shao Khan, Raiden and Shinnok.

I'm not the one subscribing to that. You can bring every Dorf feat you can scrape, he' still below the MK top guns overall.

2. A small collection of mortals. And once Raiden goes, so does the protection. Killing Raiden is a simple matter for Ganondorf, or even Zant. Raiden is not that tough. Ganondorf can physically dominate him. Teleport out of the Twilight? You are explicitly not aware you are under its effects, you just are, and are powerless. Siphon ability to resist Twilight from the Twili? Seriously? Zant had perfect control over them, he teleports them back, then teleports to Khan and proceeds to effortlessly crush him. 🙂 Also, drain the Twili? When is any shit like this done?

3. Nah, can wait for you to be on a proper computer.

4. Biggoron's Sword? Actually, it doesn't harm him, you can wail on him, but only the Master Sword will finish him. Megaton Hammer is the same. Oh, and this was explicitly retconned in Wind Waker as well, only the Master Sword can harm him, explicitly stated. Supported by Link slashing at him with a less than full power Master Sword and clanging against him as it would steel, and surviving Valoo's destruction of the Foresaken Fortress. Oh, and in Twilight Princess, the Sword of the Sages was unable to kill him either, even though it was already impaled in him before he got the Triforce of Power. '

5. They are faster if you ignore evidence, sure. Fly? ZOMG NO WAI Ganondorf can also fly. 😐 Zant and Ganondorf can both teleport as well. Striking feats? Show me one disintegrating someone with a punch. Not that "striking feats" isn't inherently a cop-out, Ganondorf and Link are proven much stronger. Oh, and what superior striking feats do the MK fighters really have? Shao Kahn was not that impressive in the intro to Armageddon, for example. Questionable? He tanked Light Arrows, which destroy evil. As in, completely vaporize it, leaving nothing left at all. He tanks these eeasily. The Master Sword was unable to kill him in WW, and maybe in TP too, though, the ending was oddly vague. Beyond that, the magic of the Light Spirits, which is explicitly harmful to Twilight denizens, and this particular spirit being the strongest one, did nothing to Zant, who then easily suppressed it with telekinesis before sealing it. Yeah, no resistance to magic. GTFO. Midna feat my ass, I presented many. And the Midna feat is legit, he stuck around, where else would he get her Fused Shadows to crush from? The same Fused Shadows that enabled Midna to curbstomp Zant and shatter the city-wide barrier Zant put up without effort.

6. Only I have brought up nothing that cannot be used in combat. Freezing over a city for example. Destroying an island. Infecting an entire country with Twilight Magic. Stop.

7. No, he would effortlessly crush them all.

I'm going to be deleting some quotes here, just to let you know, since so many of these have devolved into repeating the same things over and over again. I'm not going to repeat myself, sorry in advance.

Originally posted by quanchi112
2.Listen the only two times he attempts to be revived is when the triforce of power glows. Once he comes back and the second time he does not. Pretty simple.

Not even close. What about when he talks and makes a fist with a glowing Triforce? Is he attempting to revive himself there? No, you're just under the mistaken impression that the Triforce must glow when it it used. This is not so. The fact remains that once Beast Ganon was killed, Ganondorf returned to his "god" spirit form and proceeded to make a new body.

Dorf has one dragon in the game. The rest of the grunts he has can be easily dealt with by one man, Link. This isn't an impressive army nor it is portrayed as such. The hyrulian army is also shown to be incompetent and fearful. Nothing more. Quan Chi creating Scorpion and Noob shows he can create in Scorpion a highly skilled/assassin who is unkillable that wields hellfire. Quan Chi's exploits are far more impressive and mk's armies are staggering compared to what we see from twili. Tarkatans are the race of Baraka the have long blades coming out of their arms and the shokans are half dragon/half human four armed beings with insane strength. Kintaro is half human/half tiger as well.

Ganondorf also has a species of dinosaurs he revived (the Dodongos) and quite and the revived Volvagia (a dragon) and Bongo-Bongo, plus the giant Armogohma and Stallord. Plus the Shadow Beasts that crushed all resistance basically anywhere they were. Ganondorf creating Zant shows he can make an unstoppable sorcerer who comes back from the dead and merge dimensions, not to mention transmute everything he touches. Shadow Beasts makes more of themselves every time they kill and can revive each other in seconds, those normal troops are better than pretty much any other army you've shown, not to mention that Zant can just transform people into new Shadow Beasts whenever. This in addition to the Stalfos that put themselves together or the half dragon-half lizard Aerofols, who can fly, and the armored Lizalfos and Darknuts. Ganondorf got a lot more variety, it seems.

You need to show her doing so then to make a valid claim. Lifting something and destroying something are two totally different things. If I lift a 45 pound weight that doesn't mean I have the power to physically destroy a 5 pound dumbbell.

YouTube video

Midna TKs teleports, and then smashes a frozen city with a massive volcanic rock. Ermac gets crushed. By he way, I can lift a 45 pound weight and crush a tangerine in my hands.

You haven't seen much from mk. Kain from legacy of kain can also turn himself intangible to pass through objects but this doesn't make him into a powerset/unkillable character like you're trying to do here with all zelda characters. The problem I have with you is you don't play the games you just argue for one side and are completely ignorant on the other side. You shouldn't enter debates you're completely ignorant of on your own.

Quit your flaming, please. Now, then, please show me an MK character hitting an intangible or invisible foe.

I've seen Link tear through shadow beats as well as Midna pre powered up. They aren't that formidable at all. If Link can mow through them as an army they are terrible.

That's just because you underestimate Link and seem to think that losing to him makes you weak. Also, if you'd played the game you would know that Link can't beat Shadow Beasts without Midna's help at first, since they always revive themselves before the last one can be killed. That's more than formidable enough, if your enemies won't stay dead.

Most of the grunts like the stalfos are weaklings compared to the monsters seen in mk so they are hardly even worth a thought since in numbers they can't even defeat Link. Raiden has shown the power to protect those souls he wants to so the mk elite are taken care of. Their are far more elite mk characters than there are zelda characters also.

Prove it. Why don't you show me the monsters in MK beating a main character? Oh, if you can't that means one person just runs through all of them, too, so sad. Please don't forget that quite a few of Link's enemies revive themselves after they seem to be dead.

Gorons only look impressive when wrestling around or using their weight advantage but mkers aren't trying to just get by them they are going to kill them. The shokans have four arms as well as the strength necessary to best them or at worst negate each other. I personally think the shokans would eat them for breakfast.

Show me any of those doing this and I might consider them a threat.

Mk characters have greater magic at their disposal imo. A new dlc character is supposed to be created by Shao Kahn from the blood of bested opponents in Skarlet. His magic also brought Shang Tsung back from death to join his side.

What does this have to do with armies not having twilight resistance?

Link can hurt weaker enemies but the the greater/more skilled enemies he can't just oneshot. Like I said it depends on his sword strike at which body part and where just like an mker's attack on Link.

Emphasis on "greater." If Link can't kill them in one hit, then they must be awesome, seeing as Link is so super strong.

Prove Link can lift several tons. The example is fine since the mk fighters seem to have greater combat strength power feats as opposed to link's lifting feats.

Done so several times, not going to repeat myself again.

Prove the monster weighed this much. I don't think Link can do so without the sword whereas mkers can. You can't prove Link can whereas I can prove mkers can.

Already proved it, just go back a page.

If Sub Zero has freezing powers yet he never freezes Shang Tsung that doesn't mean he can't freeze Shang Tsung only that he hasn't. It's like saying Link can't shoot an arrow into someone's eye because canonically he has never done so. We go by abilities and canon. We don't ignore either.

But Link can hit a one inch pole from a town away. That's good enough to hit someone in the eye. You have no such comparisons, though, to prove that Sub-Zero can freeze him.

Link can still be hurt by the axe. Link can be hurt by a boomerang but sure in a cutscene the axe didn't kill him he shrugged it off but at no point can you as a character just let an axe hit you. It's you once again looking too far into one freakish attack on Link and ignoring his portrayal in the game. He will be hurt by mk punches since they can rip people in half. Link doesn't cut through them unless he hits them properly but I doubt it since they are highly skilled in combat compared to the month or so of training Link has.

Link is proven to not be phased much by axes, even in game, seeing as they don't even deal major damage. MK fighters can't rip people in half unless the victim is standing still doing nothing, so they can't do it to Link based on this portrayal. But if you want go by actual canon rather than stupid portrayals, then sure MKers can rip people in half, but it'd be hypocritical of you to deny Link's feats.

Arm rip off to me is superior to a feat only made possible by boots. If Link could throw the goron without any item it'd be a lot more impressive than needing a boot.

lol. Lifting a multi ton rock takes less strength than ripping off an arm. You crack me up.

Zant was talking and caught them unaware we see when Link fights him he can fight/perceive and win the fight so even against Link you're taking it out of context once again.

That was you, though, taking stuff out of context. Zant's speed feats are super to MK's, therefore he is faster. Not that hard.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Dorf didn't have it before the sages took him prisoner. All it proves is an utter reliance on an item of power and without it he's nothing unlike Onaga who is still capable of resurrecting his army and one of the elite fighters even without the kamidogu. I can live with that.

Ignoring the fact that Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power and Onaga does not have whatever his thing is. It's like comparing a Green Lantern ring to the Infinity Gauntlet.

Should I put up another video where they pretty much do so in a canon fight ? When has Link ever done so ? I think he can cut into an mk fighter with his sword but the whole problem with that is hitting the mk fighter to begin with based off their training/speed/ and strength.

Sure, just make sure the opponent is actually fighting and not swaying back and forth like a drunken fool. I showed you Link cutting off a monster's three heads in one shot, that beats your portrayals right now.

1.You speculated without any real numbers of anything from nintendo. Speculating isn't proving something.

Minimum number it could possibly be, yes, but you can't deny it without denying the density of rock.

2.That's your problem then because the things I claim mk fighters can do they have done or shown the strength to do. I could care less about skyward sword. we will have that debate when the time comes.

The things I claim Link has done, though, see lifting a multi ton Dangoro. The fact that this puts him at strong enough to manhandle Mortal Kombat is your problem.

I don't think mkers are going to punch his head off in a normal punch I think for the most part they'd have to do so against an already defeated Link just like I don't think Link is lopping into their breasts until they are standing still either. If you let the enemies attack you Link dies just like in mk so neither are immune to the attacks since their energy goes down. I honestly don't have a clue how you think. It's odd.

Yes, as they are portrayed, MK fighters can't punch off Link's head until he's already defeated, but I just showed you that Link doesn't need to have already won to cut a monsters three heads off, so there ya go. Link can just cut their heads off immediately.

I don't have to prove anything, the castle blew up and we don't see what caused it too, what form dorf was in at the time, or where he was at the moment of impact. All speculation.

You're the one speculating, see my reply to Allankles for details on the actual evidence.

Except Dorf is cut and dies from the sword. I think he can tank sword strikes it just depends where like any other mker or Link too for that matter. I mean dorf dies from a sword yet you claim he's uncuttable now.

Ignoring context. It was the Master Sword, it is stated in multiple that pretty much any other sword would not work, and Wind Waker in particular proves this.

You can kill dorf or bfr him into unconsciousness. He takes damage and needs to recover. That's the point.

But you can't kill him and he always comes back, is the real point.

Mk9 uses the events from all previous mk's whereas this dorf has no clue about Link or the master swrod thus his memories are different. Either way I haven't beaten the game so leave the oot references out.

I haven't beaten all the other MK games, so won't you leave the references out? You've only played, what, two games? You should know by now that Ganondorf and the Triforce of Power are pretty much always the same, and Twilight Princess was caused by and uses events from previous games, too. Stop being hypocritical.

He was teleporting scorpion back after mk 4. His amulet can traverse the realms through portals that's why you see Onaga pick up his amulet after his death in the deception opening as they say reshape the realms as he sees fit.

That's nice, show it to me.

We see a big head form so he changed forms so we don't know if he tanked it or what caused it. It's funny seeing this feat you have convinced yourself of as so real and me destroying it before your eyes. Feels good.

Well, that's just mean. I could say I find your desperate attempts to find one detail and latch on to it, then ignore everything else is pretty funny, but I'm not into flaming, so I'll keep my real opinion unwritten.

Dorf exploded one sage, who cares ? Mkers can all do so if they hit their opponents and dorf capitalized on their shock so they definitelly could have done so in the same situation.

Prove it. Show me an MK fighter exploding someone with a punch at the start of a fight.

Meh

Originally posted by quanchi112
I'm not saying what I said happened I am only saying there's no proof either way but one thing we do know is the last time we saw dorf he was giant head and then human form so things occurred off screen thus the feat is invalid.

Yet he was obviously unharmed, and we saw all prior events, so your criticism is invalid.

He does so to change shapes. He can't do so to be uneatable in combat. I've seen comic book characters also with this power but they can still be beaten. How does your mind work ?

I like to think I work outside the box. What I don't understand is why you seem to be trying to give Ganondorf an ability that make him even harder to beat and then insist that it means he's weak. You're going to need to face facts here, man, and that is that Ganondorf revived himself several times over the game.

Beast dorf wasn't dead or dying hence he didn't need to access the triforce of power he only did twice when he was fatally wounded. Pretty obvious.

Odd. You think that Beast Ganon, laying on the ground not moving, means he is not dead or dying? That's fascinating. Then when his spirit emerges and makes a new body pretty obviously, you choose to not see it? Incredible.

We don't see the blast hitting him and his powers can change shapes or come out of portals unlike the mk fight where we see exactly what happened without a narrator even having to say it. You threw a hissy because of it so I still showed you up. LOL.

It's so funny when you think you've won. We did see the blast hitting, all that you're doing is denying a cutscene and your own eyes, I'm guessing out of spite.

Once they have the protection it's there. I don't foresee Quan Chi remaking many mkers myself personally.

All the easier to beat them, then.

We saw a giant head so it it happened as you said right after he couldn't have had time to change forms. We didn't see what boought the castle down nor did we see where they both were in relation to it.

Just go watch the cutscene again. We saw Midna transform, we saw Ganondorf right there, we saw Midna attack, and we saw the explosion. Denying these events is denying your ability to see.

I dont know why the Midna thing is even being argued, claiming that Midna pushing her spear forwards automatically means the explosion was from her is a stretch of logic because in the time it took to happen Ganon defeated her, tranformed and began his way up the hill to face Link.

There is no indication of who this came from, possibly both of them or either one, logic suggests it was Ganon considering he is the victor. Furthermore, this does not give him any durability feats even if it was Midna, he was using a form he rarely if ever uses that has a different physical appearance than any others.

Finally, its a rubbish feat. Making several stretches of logic to reach the belief Ganon took this blast would also take the stretch of logic that it was purely physical force that apprently was so strong it expanded out to smash the nearby rocks to make it even worth mentioning. The castle is still a lump of old stones being collapsed, its not an impressive display.

Also disintegrating "someone" with a punch is different to disintegrating a sage with a punch considering their make up.

Bro, you're being stupid and assuming everyone else is also stupid.

The last attack seen on screen before the Castle explodes is Midna's. And even a few seconds before the strike, she teleported Link and Zelda outside of the castle, far away from it. Then, she does her attack. The scene skips to Link and Zelda reappearing, and then a few seconds later, boom. The time frame even cooperates with the assumption. Clear intent is clear.

Oh god, it's been so long. I'd forgotten how hard you can down play. Alright, so, moar things:

Yes, there is an indication. The last thing we see leads thinking towards a specific conclusion. And yes, it does grant durability. You yourself have said that the attack is not purely physical.

No, it is not. And there is no real stretch of anything, other than your imagination, of course. This castle is a "lump of old stones" built to withstand sieges, because that is why castles are designed. It is also much larger than any castle I can name, even in fiction short of like Minas Tirith from that third Lord of the Rings movie. But that isn't even really a whole castle, it's the whole city. Getting back on track, you underestimate just how amazing the attack would have to be to take this castle down. Castles are built to last, bro. Age can have an effect, sure. But this castle was still in use, it won't have that as a real problem.

As for the sage comment, let's apply your logic. A sage's makeup is not solid, obviously, which means it's immaterial. Now then, how would you go about disintegrating something immaterial with a physical strike?

I assume little, your doing all the "assuming" here.

Theres no clear intent apart from that Ganon is vastly stronger than Midna. The time frame does not help you at all, since seconds after the explosion Ganon has tranformed, defeated Midna and is riding up the hill....theres no clear time frame at all tbh, infact we dont even know how long it took before Link and Zelda finished being transported.

Its more likely your "overhyping" than I am downplaying due to the fact we do not actually see what your claiming.

Its all about "the last thing we see" with you, when seconds later Ganon has won. I dont belive its purely physical at all, I dont belive Ganon is at that time either and no its worthless as a feat because Ganon in that form is not generally used, so you would have to prove all transformations of Ganon/dorfs have the same physical properties.

My imagination? I am not the one making things up to fill in the gaps in my argument, I am going by what I can see on screen. Real castles were built to withstand siges from normal human beings, and can be knocked down by even basic old age weapons like catapults, if Ganon has no more durability than a stone wall no matter how thick then hes in trouble.

That does not mean its immaterial, otherwise he would not have been struck, his body moved as if you were punching through his robes then disapeared. Theres no indication however of what they are made from, only that they are fairly light and soft beings. Thier hands and faces are not even attached to their bodies so unless they have a durability feat somewhere theres no point in bringing it up.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I assume little, your doing all the "assuming" here.

Hardly. I just work with what you give me, bro.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Theres no clear intent apart from that Ganon is vastly stronger than Midna. The time frame does not help you at all, since seconds after the explosion Ganon has tranformed, defeated Midna and is riding up the hill....theres no clear time frame at all tbh, infact we dont even know how long it took before Link and Zelda finished being transported.

If there was no attempt to show who blew up the castle, Midna's strike would not be there. We'd have seen something more along the lines of Midna activating all four Fused Shadows and then Ganon would have done something other than just stand there like the badass he is.

Bro, Ganon can teleport. I am also fairly certain that we see Ganon crush Midna's Fused Shadow piece after Link and Zelda get closer to the castle, which would also give Ganon ample time to do what he does.

Hell, maybe Midna didn't even get defeated. Maybe she put everything she had into a single strike and blew herself apart. Which would put her at Raiden's level. Oh, wait, that can't be said. Do you know why? Because Ganon crushing Midna's piece of the Fused Shadows is there to demonstrate Ganon's dominance over her and lead our thinking to the conclusion that Ganon defeated her.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its more likely your "overhyping" than I am downplaying due to the fact we do not actually see what your claiming.

See the above, bro.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its all about "the last thing we see" with you, when seconds later Ganon has won. I dont belive its purely physical at all, I dont belive Ganon is at that time either and no its worthless as a feat because Ganon in that form is not generally used, so you would have to prove all transformations of Ganon/dorfs have the same physical properties.

Yeah. Magical attack is magical. I'm glad you are capable of restating what you said before, after I agreed with you.

And, provided the attack is not physical like we've both agreed, I don't actually have to prove anything. A magical attack could affect the immaterial, which would grant Ganon the capability to take that attack no matter what form he is in. Since he didn't even have a body at that time and tanked the attack with his spirit/soul/essence/whateverthehellyouwannacallit.

Originally posted by Burning thought
My imagination? I am not the one making things up to fill in the gaps in my argument, I am going by what I can see on screen. Real castles were built to withstand siges from normal human beings, and can be knocked down by even basic old age weapons like catapults, if Ganon has no more durability than a stone wall no matter how thick then hes in trouble.

Wow. You never fail to underestimate stone, do you?

I will point out that, because this castle is considerably larger than any castle in the real world, it's bound to be way tougher.

You are also still overlooking how the attack wasn't even aimed at the castle. And to demonstrate how important this is, I will take Paste's favorite quote.

"This is like me kicking you in the nuts so hard your house explodes."

Originally posted by Burning thought
That does not mean its immaterial, otherwise he would not have been struck, his body moved as if you were punching through his robes then disapeared. Theres no indication however of what they are made from, only that they are fairly light and soft beings. Thier hands and faces are not even attached to their bodies so unless they have a durability feat somewhere theres no point in bringing it up.

There's no indication of what they are made from, yet you will assume they are light and soft. 'cause that makes complete and total sense. These are the sages that protect the Mirror of Twilight and probably forged the Master Sword and have the power to imprison Ganon. It totally makes sense that they are frail.

So, what are you using to assume that they are light and soft?

Occam's razor should be in effect here.

Saying that Midna's attack destroyed the castle is the simplest explanation and makes the fewest assumptions. As opposed to "Midna's attack did nothing and something we didn't see destroyed the castle, like an counterattack, block, or collision." The first one makes the fewest assumptions and fits the given evidence, while the second one throws out multiple flat out guesses based on nothing.

We saw Midna attack, and we saw the castle explode. It would be a leap of logic to assume that Midna was not the cause when no other possibility is given. Especially given we have already seen Midna pull out this kind of power before. You're assuming Midna would attack something she doesn't have a chance of touching, you're assuming her attack didn't destroy the castle, and you're making up alternate scenarios that have no basis in fact.

Further, saying that destroying a castle is just breaking stone is like saying destroying a mountain is just breaking rocks. Or destroying a planet is just breaking a rock. It is simply, for lack of a better word, silly.

Then, unless the argument is that the Sages have less than human durability, it doesn't matter much. Trying to argue that they are magical beings or somehow not physical just proves that Ganondorf can kill a magical being and/or intangible by touching it.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Hardly. I just work with what you give me, bro.

If there was no attempt to show who blew up the castle, Midna's strike would not be there. We'd have seen something more along the lines of Midna activating all four Fused Shadows and then Ganon would have done something other than just stand there like the badass he is.

Bro, Ganon can teleport. I am also fairly certain that we see Ganon crush Midna's Fused Shadow piece after Link and Zelda get closer to the castle, which would also give Ganon ample time to do what he does.

Hell, maybe Midna didn't even get defeated. Maybe she put everything she had into a single strike and blew herself apart. Which would put her at Raiden's level. Oh, wait, that can't be said. Do you know why? Because Ganon crushing Midna's piece of the Fused Shadows is there to demonstrate Ganon's dominance over her and lead our thinking to the conclusion that Ganon defeated her.

See the above, bro.

Yeah. Magical attack is magical. I'm glad you are capable of restating what you said before, after I agreed with you.

And, provided the attack is not physical like we've both agreed, I don't actually have to prove anything. A magical attack could affect the immaterial, which would grant Ganon the capability to take that attack no matter what form he is in. Since he didn't even have a body at that time and tanked the attack with his spirit/soul/essence/whateverthehellyouwannacallit.

Wow. You never fail to underestimate stone, do you?

I will point out that, because this castle is considerably larger than any castle in the real world, it's bound to be way tougher.

You are also still overlooking how the attack wasn't even aimed at the castle. And to demonstrate how important this is, I will take Paste's favorite quote.

"This is like me kicking you in the nuts so hard your house explodes."

There's no indication of what they are made from, yet you will assume they are light and soft. 'cause that makes complete and total sense. These are the sages that protect the Mirror of Twilight and probably forged the Master Sword and have the power to imprison Ganon. It totally makes sense that they are frail.

So, what are you using to assume that they are light and soft?

The strike simply looks like shes about to attack, it does not even look like it would have hit Ganon. The only real conclusion is that Ganon defeated her, someone moving their spear forwards is not the indication for a final attack.

"could" affect the immaterial is an assumption in this case, although if youve agreed its magic, and not physical then its not "durability" feat its a resistance to magic feat in this form.

I dont know about "way larger", since the dimensions are unclear, although tbh no it may not be tougher since being larger does not mean the walls are all thicker.

paste is making the assumption it was a physical blow, i thought we just said it was magical? you going back on yourself?

I did not assume, the image of how Ganon can just push them around with ease without them even trying to defend themselves points out how soft they are. Furthermore, they are featless durabilitywise so before you try and make red herrings left and right, Ganon punching one is irrelevant.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Occam's razor should be in effect here.

Saying that Midna's attack destroyed the castle is the simplest explanation and makes the fewest assumptions. As opposed to "Midna's attack did nothing and something we didn't see destroyed the castle, like an counterattack, block, or collision." The first one makes the fewest assumptions and fits the given evidence, while the second one throws out multiple flat out guesses based on nothing.

We saw Midna attack, and we saw the castle explode. It would be a leap of logic to assume that Midna was not the cause when no other possibility is given. Especially given we have already seen Midna pull out this kind of power before. You're assuming Midna would attack something she doesn't have a chance of touching, you're assuming her attack didn't destroy the castle, and you're making up alternate scenarios that have no basis in fact.

Further, saying that destroying a castle is just breaking stone is like saying destroying a mountain is just breaking rocks. Or destroying a planet is just breaking a rock. It is simply, for lack of a better word, silly.

Then, unless the argument is that the Sages have less than human durability, it doesn't matter much. Trying to argue that they are magical beings or somehow not physical just proves that Ganondorf can kill a magical being and/or intangible by touching it.

False, it makes the same number of assumptions, Midna destroyed it vs Ganon destroyed it vs both of their powers destroyed it together. Nothing fits the evidence, someone sending their spear forwards does not even equel a strike, since we dont see it connect.

No possibility is given and that is no comparison....she nullified a barrier..thats not the same as what your claiming here. I am not assuming that, the evidence displays it, it also displays Midna attacking someone she clearly had no chance of defeating. Your the one assuming she did everything, despite earlier claiming it as a feat for Ganon 🙂

Those comparisons are in no way similiar....all a castle is, is stone, a lot of it maybe, but its not impressive and ancient man made contraptions can smash castles down.

It just proves he can destroy a Sage, thats all......

Originally posted by Burning thought
Those comparisons are in no way similiar....all a castle is, is stone, a lot of it maybe, but its not impressive and ancient man made contraptions can smash castles down.

Most sieges on a castle were won via cutting off supply lines and starving the people in the castle while the enemy just kinda waited around it, not via destroying it.

Sieges in general were a last resort, since the castle fortifications gave the defenders every single advantage possible. Any sort of direct assault on properly built and manned fortifications required a hell a numerical advantage, very solid morale, and often repeated attacks—and even then it would be an absolute blood bath.

In short, no. Ancient man made nothing that could "smash a castle down," leave.

Originally posted by NemeBro
No, wrong, thousands upon thousands of times wrong, you have no idea of what you speak.

Most sieges on a castle were won via cutting off supply lines and starving the people in the castle while the enemy just kinda waited around it, not via destroying it.

Sieges in general were a last resort, since the castle fortifications gave the defenders every single advantage possible. Any sort of direct assault on properly built and manned fortifications required a hell a numerical advantage, very solid morale, and often repeated attacks—and even then it would be an absolute blood bath.

In short, no. Ancient man made nothing that could "smash a castle down," leave.

IE, it's a TERRIBLE statement to make, horribly illogical, and a catapult in no way compares.

Originally posted by NemeBro
No, wrong, thousands upon thousands of times wrong, you have no idea of what you speak.

Most sieges on a castle were won via cutting off supply lines and starving the people in the castle while the enemy just kinda waited around it, not via destroying it.

Sieges in general were a last resort, since the castle fortifications gave the defenders every single advantage possible. Any sort of direct assault on properly built and manned fortifications required a hell a numerical advantage, very solid morale, and often repeated attacks—and even then it would be an absolute blood bath.

In short, no. Ancient man made nothing that could "smash a castle down," leave.

Catapults and Trebuchet could indeed damage/break down castle walls, the fact they were less of a tactical approach to a siege has no importance on this thread. Theres a reason why the arrival of the cannon and heavier artillary piecies made castles obselete and "fortified positions" more worthwhile.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Is VERY different from blowing up the entire thing.

Its simply the next step to being able to project said force over an area than damaging a wall. I almost admire the red herring in most of these statements.

Originally posted by Burning thought
False, it makes the same number of assumptions, Midna destroyed it vs Ganon destroyed it vs both of their powers destroyed it together. Nothing fits the evidence, someone sending their spear forwards does not even equel a strike, since we dont see it connect.

That's a stretch if I've ever seen one. "We saw Midna attack, but we didn't see her hit, so obviously..." and I get lost on your claim. You seem to be suggesting that Midna plunging down her trident and the screen going pure white means, what, that she didn't hit? This somehow then leads to the conclusion that Ganondorf did "something" to make the feat not work but you don't know what "something" is.

Here is the cutscene again. Ganondorf roars, then Midna rises up, and swings her trident down, causing the screen to go white. Then we cut to Link and Zelda, outside, and the castle explodes. Link is teleported at 1:30, and Midna attacks at 2:06, a full 36 seconds later. Then the scene changes. Link and Zelda arrive at 2:15 and the castle explodes at 2:33, 17 seconds later. Obviously they did not arrive immediately, and twilight portals have a time delay between them. Accounting for that, the times actually sync up rather well.

Now, for any of the other theories, they just don't work. Here's the breakdown:

1) Midna destroyed the castle- Here, we have seen Midna use an attack previously shown to be powerful, and we see her attacking. This one is the best supported.

2) Ganondorf destroyed the castle- While I would rather this outcome, personally, it is not indicated in the slightest. In the whole scene, Ganondorf's only action is to scream in Midna's direction. We see no attack, no defense, no attempt at escape, nothing. Ganondorf just sat there and took it.

3) Both destroyed the castle- A decent theory, but it again falls prey to the fact one of the players is doing absolutely nothing. For a collision, you need to have two opposing forces; we have one, which is Midna, and Ganondorf gave no force to actually oppose her.

No possibility is given and that is no comparison....she nullified a barrier..thats not the same as what your claiming here. I am not assuming that, the evidence displays it, it also displays Midna attacking someone she clearly had no chance of defeating. Your the one assuming she did everything, despite earlier claiming it as a feat for Ganon 🙂

It's really amazing the effect one word can have on a sentence. "Nullified" implied Midna simply made the barrier go away, when in the cutscene she actually...what a good word? Ah, I think shattered works pretty well. The point here being that since Midna has quite obviously shown the ability for large scale destruction, implying she was unable to destroy a castle is silly. Midna and her barrier busting, castle breaking self didn't have a chance of defeating Ganondorf, yes I agree, but you seem to be arguing that Midna would attack a foe she knew to be, what, intangible? I think that's what you said, Ganondorf isn't impressive because his head can't be hit or something. The fact that Midna has hit him right in the spirit before indicates that, whatever else, Midna could touch him, if not actually hurt him.

Those comparisons are in no way similiar....all a castle is, is stone, a lot of it maybe, but its not impressive and ancient man made contraptions can smash castles down.

'All a mountain is, is rock, a lot of it maybe, but its not impressive and' there the comparison ends because I can't believe you think ancient man could break castles. I'm sorry, but you're really trying to argue that mountain busting is easy because you can break a rock with a hammer, and that just doesn't work.

It just proves he can destroy a Sage, thats all......

Yup, he exploded a Sage with a punch. His punches explode people, and he crushes castle busting artifacts by clenching his fists. Ganondorf is good at what he does.