Originally posted by Burning thought
Catapults and Trebuchet could indeed damage/break down castle walls, the fact they were less of a tactical approach to a siege has no importance on this thread. Theres a reason why the arrival of the cannon and heavier artillary piecies made castles obselete and "fortified positions" more worthwhile.
Siege of Candia. Ottomans pelt the keep with gunpowder weapons for almost the entirety of the siege. Candia holds for over 2 decades.
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Siege of Candia. Ottomans pelt the keep with gunpowder weapons for almost the entirety of the siege. Candia holds for over 2 decades.
Interesting, but yet in other cirumstances a trebuchet can topple a castle wall. Not all castles are equel just like all armour/protection is not equel.
Originally posted by The Scenario
That's a stretch if I've ever seen one. "We saw Midna attack, but we didn't see her hit, so obviously..." and I get lost on your claim. You seem to be suggesting that Midna plunging down her trident and the screen going pure white means, what, that she didn't hit? This somehow then leads to the conclusion that Ganondorf did "something" to make the feat not work but you don't know what "something" is.Here is the cutscene again. Ganondorf roars, then Midna rises up, and swings her trident down, causing the screen to go white. Then we cut to Link and Zelda, outside, and the castle explodes. Link is teleported at 1:30, and Midna attacks at 2:06, a full 36 seconds later. Then the scene changes. Link and Zelda arrive at 2:15 and the castle explodes at 2:33, 17 seconds later. Obviously they did not arrive immediately, and twilight portals have a time delay between them. Accounting for that, the times actually sync up rather well.
Now, for any of the other theories, they just don't work. Here's the breakdown:
1) Midna destroyed the castle- Here, we have seen Midna use an attack previously shown to be powerful, and we see her attacking. This one is the best supported.
2) Ganondorf destroyed the castle- While I would rather this outcome, personally, it is not indicated in the slightest. In the whole scene, Ganondorf's only action is to scream in Midna's direction. We see no attack, no defense, no attempt at escape, nothing. Ganondorf just sat there and took it.
3) Both destroyed the castle- A decent theory, but it again falls prey to the fact one of the players is doing absolutely nothing. For a collision, you need to have two opposing forces; we have one, which is Midna, and Ganondorf gave no force to actually oppose her.
It's really amazing the effect one word can have on a sentence. "Nullified" implied Midna simply made the barrier go away, when in the cutscene she actually...what a good word? Ah, I think shattered works pretty well. The point here being that since Midna has quite obviously shown the ability for large scale destruction, implying she was unable to destroy a castle is silly. Midna and her barrier busting, castle breaking self didn't have a chance of defeating Ganondorf, yes I agree, but you seem to be arguing that Midna would attack a foe she knew to be, what, intangible? I think that's what you said, Ganondorf isn't impressive because his head can't be hit or something. The fact that Midna has hit him right in the spirit before indicates that, whatever else, Midna could touch him, if not actually hurt him.
'All a mountain is, is rock, a lot of it maybe, but its not impressive and' there the comparison ends because I can't believe you think ancient man could break castles. I'm sorry, but you're really trying to argue that mountain busting is easy because you can break a rock with a hammer, and that just doesn't work.
Yup, he exploded a Sage with a punch. His punches explode people, and he crushes castle busting artifacts by clenching his fists. Ganondorf is good at what he does.
Well no, because we do not see it happen. How can we know how Ganon defeated midna when we do not see it? as I said, making assumptions seems to be your forte...
Theres an incredible amount of time between the scenes, between the teleport and the strike, the strike and the explosion. Also you see lightning seem to move in on the castle before it explodes and a great shake, this does not happen when the strike is made. Theres a lot of evidence to suggest the strike did not do much, further as the Castle explodes Ganon is already standing atop the hill, on his horse and transformed back. Indication actually favours that it was actually Ganons doing, or both of them, but not that strike. Also, do you have a vid of the castle "after" being wrecked after the smoke has cleared, I wonder if the castle was even destroyed because the smoke blocks us from seeing it.
1) Of course you would say its the best supported, but whats the support? one defeat of a barrier? compared to timing favouring Ganon....and the victory going to him.
2) We see him yell at her attack, so? we also know he defeated her, transformed and teleported.
3) on screen Midna is not smashing anything either, or causing damage. We hear a scream from Ganon but no shake or crash? clearly not the strike that did it.
I cannot follow that link, although I cannot see "shattered" in your previous vid, also in the previous vid using that specific power knocked her out. Zelda was the point of Midnas center of power, Ganon was not simply a spirit at the time, he was in possession.
Trebuchet have broken castles, so you would be wrong there. When did I argue that at all? I dont recall....
HIs punches explode sages...those who are of no durability based on feats (unless you have one of course?).
Originally posted by Burning thought
The strike simply looks like shes about to attack, it does not even look like it would have hit Ganon. The only real conclusion is that Ganon defeated her, someone moving their spear forwards is not the indication for a final attack.
Oh man, it's still been so long.
So, a spear thrust is not enough indication for that? How about kicking your friends out of the castle before you do it?
Originally posted by Burning thought
"could" affect the immaterial is an assumption in this case, although if youve agreed its magic, and not physical then its not "durability" feat its a resistance to magic feat in this form.
It will.
And no, it's still a durability feat. Because an ability to affect the immaterial does not necessarily take away from an ability to affect the physical world.
Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont know about "way larger", since the dimensions are unclear, although tbh no it may not be tougher since being larger does not mean the walls are all thicker.
Alright, so here's one random result from a Google Image search of "World's largest castle." On one tower here I can spot at least four stories, so about 50 feet or so would be a good guess for the tallest part of a castle. Or perhaps even an average castle's highest point. I don't really care which.
Oh, apparently that's Windsor Castle.
And here is Twilight Princess' Hyrule Castle, from several vantage points to minimize your objections.
Now, if you focus, you can see two guards standing by the large gate in the center of the photo. They are in front of the walls, making for a decent ability to compare sizes. Let's be stupid about it and say for shits and giggles those guards are five feet tall. That can make the gate they stand in front of twenty feet tall, easily. And this is a gate that's small compared to the large Hyrule Castle in the background.
Seriously, that castle looks huge compared to the gate already, and the gate isn't even right next to it.
Gigantic castle is gigantic.
Here, have another vantage point.
http://www.supercheats.com/guides/files/guid/the-legend-of-zelda-twilight-princess/castle1.jpg
Originally posted by Burning thought
paste is making the assumption it was a physical blow, i thought we just said it was magical? you going back on yourself?
See my previous response.
Originally posted by Burning thought
I did not assume, the image of how Ganon can just push them around with ease without them even trying to defend themselves points out how soft they are. Furthermore, they are featless durabilitywise so before you try and make red herrings left and right, Ganon punching one is irrelevant.
Yeah. Because I know if I just stabbed a guy execution style with a sword, and instead of dying he displayed a glowing triangle symbol on his hand, broke the chains, and ripped the sword out, I'd remember to defend myself.
Well, actually, I would. But if I was a Sage in a video game cutscene meant to display how hardcore the villain is, I wouldn't. But I'm just naturally awesome.
You are baselessly assuming the Sages are beneath humans in durability. I will not allow this nonsense.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Well no, because we do not see it happen. How can we know how Ganon defeated midna when we do not see it? as I said, making assumptions seems to be your forte...
Enough with the flaming.
Theres an incredible amount of time between the scenes, between the teleport and the strike, the strike and the explosion. Also you see lightning seem to move in on the castle before it explodes and a great shake, this does not happen when the strike is made. Theres a lot of evidence to suggest the strike did not do much, further as the Castle explodes Ganon is already standing atop the hill, on his horse and transformed back. Indication actually favours that it was actually Ganons doing, or both of them, but not that strike. Also, do you have a vid of the castle "after" being wrecked after the smoke has cleared, I wonder if the castle was even destroyed because the smoke blocks us from seeing it.
The times actually sync up very well accounting for the teleport's time delay. We see lightning that matches up with the area whiting out as Midna attacks. Since we see Midna attacking and the screen going white, all other theories on what destroyed the castle are entirely baseless. Ganondorf appears only after the explosion, with whatever he did to get the Fused Shadows. Crushing them puts him above their power anyway.
1) Of course you would say its the best supported, but whats the support? one defeat of a barrier? compared to timing favouring Ganon....and the victory going to him.2) We see him yell at her attack, so? we also know he defeated her, transformed and teleported.
3) on screen Midna is not smashing anything either, or causing damage. We hear a scream from Ganon but no shake or crash? clearly not the strike that did it.
1) Of course I would say it's the best supported, because it has the most evidence in its favor. We have seen the effects of the Fused Shadows breaking a barrier that encompasses the very same castle, and we see Midna using the very same weapon and attack on the castle itself.
2) We see him yell, and do nothing else even as Midna brought a giant trident down on him. Assuming that he blew up the castle when he does not attack as Midna does is a severe leap of logic. We saw Midna attack, and we saw Ganondorf clearly not attack. Whatever he did to win the fight after this point is unrelated to Midna blowing up the castle, save that she may have been tired out.
3) Again, we clearly saw Midna attack and the entire area nearby goes white. Claiming that Ganondorf did something when we clearly saw him not do anything in response to Midna is baseless. He roared, no counterattack was indicated.
I cannot follow that link, although I cannot see "shattered" in your previous vid, also in the previous vid using that specific power knocked her out. Zelda was the point of Midnas center of power, Ganon was not simply a spirit at the time, he was in possession.
1:10, you can clearly see the barrier break into hundreds pieces. As for the other video, yes, that's the point, Midna removed Ganondorf's spirit from Zelda's body, an obviously indication that she can affect him.
Trebuchet have broken castles, so you would be wrong there. When did I argue that at all? I dont recall....
A castle is just a lot of stone. A mountain is just a lot of rock. The the same statements, only the former is you actually said. Can you point to a specific trebuchet and castle and the specific amount of damage? And if you're arguing that MK characters are able to punch hard enough to mimic that damage you'll have to show that as well. I doubt you are, but that would be the only thing this line of argument would lead to.
HIs punches explode sages...those who are of no durability based on feats (unless you have one of course?).
Unless you're arguing that their durability is less than human, it's at baseline.
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Oh man, it's still been so long.So, a spear thrust is not enough indication for that? How about kicking your friends out of the castle before you do it?
It will.
And no, it's still a durability feat. Because an ability to affect the immaterial does not necessarily take away from an ability to affect the physical world.
Alright, so here's one random result from a Google Image search of "World's largest castle." On one tower here I can spot at least four stories, so about 50 feet or so would be a good guess for the tallest part of a castle. Or perhaps even an average castle's highest point. I don't really care which.
Oh, apparently that's Windsor Castle.
And here is Twilight Princess' Hyrule Castle, from several vantage points to minimize your objections.
Now, if you focus, you can see two guards standing by the large gate in the center of the photo. They are in front of the walls, making for a decent ability to compare sizes. Let's be stupid about it and say for shits and giggles those guards are five feet tall. That can make the gate they stand in front of twenty feet tall, easily. And this is a gate that's small compared to the large Hyrule Castle in the background.
Seriously, that castle looks huge compared to the gate already, and the gate isn't even right next to it.
Gigantic castle is gigantic.
Here, have another vantage point.
http://www.supercheats.com/guides/files/guid/the-legend-of-zelda-twilight-princess/castle1.jpg
See my previous response.
Yeah. Because I know if I just stabbed a guy execution style with a sword, and instead of dying he displayed a glowing triangle symbol on his hand, broke the chains, and ripped the sword out, I'd remember to defend myself.
Well, actually, I would. But if I was a Sage in a video game cutscene meant to display how hardcore the villain is, I wouldn't. But I'm just naturally awesome.
You are baselessly assuming the Sages are beneath humans in durability. I will not allow this nonsense.
How does taking friends from a possibly dangerous location (clearly it was going to be dangerous regardless of the explosion) indicate it? If its immaterial then what it did to the physical world is irrelevent, the immaterial cannot feel that.
I dont know what that is trying to prove, that its large? fair enough I guess assuming their the same castle...
You just contradicted yourself, why?
Baselessly? they have no feats and are not made up of flesh and blood, why would I assume they have some durability? all I have seen of them is that they die in a flash of light and leave no remains from nothing but a punch....
Originally posted by The Scenario
Enough with the flaming.The times actually sync up very well accounting for the teleport's time delay. We see lightning that matches up with the area whiting out as Midna attacks. Since we see Midna attacking and the screen going white, all other theories on what destroyed the castle are entirely baseless. Ganondorf appears only after the explosion, with whatever he did to get the Fused Shadows. Crushing them puts him above their power anyway.
1) Of course I would say it's the best supported, because it has the most evidence in its favor. We have seen the effects of the Fused Shadows breaking a barrier that encompasses the very same castle, and we see Midna using the very same weapon and attack on the castle itself.
2) We see him yell, and do nothing else even as Midna brought a giant trident down on him. Assuming that he blew up the castle when he does not attack as Midna does is a severe leap of logic. We saw Midna attack, and we saw Ganondorf clearly not attack. Whatever he did to win the fight after this point is unrelated to Midna blowing up the castle, save that she may have been tired out.
3) Again, we clearly saw Midna attack and the entire area nearby goes white. Claiming that Ganondorf did something when we clearly saw him not do anything in response to Midna is baseless. He roared, no counterattack was indicated.
1:10, you can clearly see the barrier break into hundreds pieces. As for the other video, yes, that's the point, Midna removed Ganondorf's spirit from Zelda's body, an obviously indication that she can affect him.
A castle is just a lot of stone. A mountain is just a lot of rock. The the same statements, only the former is you actually said. Can you point to a specific trebuchet and castle and the specific amount of damage? And if you're arguing that MK characters are able to punch hard enough to mimic that damage you'll have to show that as well. I doubt you are, but that would be the only thing this line of argument would lead to.
Unless you're arguing that their durability is less than human, it's at baseline.
Saying someone makes a lot of assumptions is hardly flaming...
The area whiteing out (assuming thats not just the changing from scene to scene, fade out) does not account for lightning. Crushing them proves those piecies simply have little durability.
1. Hardly, your adding more ambigious assumptions to fill in an ambigious scene.
2) you say its unrelated to midna blowing up the castle as if I have agreed she did, its very much related when you consider the possibility that she did not, and he did like the lightning and shaking of power not present in the previous scene shows.
3) You did not counter me here, your using the screen going white to mean lightning and your ignoring the huge crack of an explosion...also not heard amongst Ganons low growl. Your reaching for straws...
No counter attack was indicated, apart from the fact he stands victorious with her shadows crushed in his hands 🙄
It seems to just fall away with the flash of light. That can still be nullification than some sort of physical shatter of an energy barrier 😉 Defeating Ganon and chucking him from Zeldas body is not the same as causing a blow to a spirit without an anchor to the world.
A castle is just a load of stone, walls etc....a mountain is vastly larger. Warwolf built by Edward Longshanks is a famous one, it leveled a castle wall but this is a red herring, your missing the point on purpose I suppose? I am just saying I dont think smashing castles is impressive at all, Raiden has already shown power to blow up a large building, I would be surprised if MK characters could not break stone walls when they have robots and bombs and planet soul rapers.
"its at baseline" what do you mean? based on their physiology I dont think "disintegrating people" is an accurate term, their appendages (face, hands etc) are not even attached to them.
Originally posted by Burning thought
The area whiteing out (assuming thats not just the changing from scene to scene, fade out) does not account for lightning. Crushing them proves those piecies simply have little durability.
No, see, because the screen whiting out and the scene change are separate events. Watch the scene, after Midna attacks and the screen goes white, and then a few seconds after that, the black bars framing the screen disappear. That's the scene change, not the whiteout. The Fused Shadows are the embodiment of the Interloper's magic, the Light Spirit even shows you that the pieces are magic given a physical form. Ganondorf crushed that.
1. Hardly, your adding more ambigious assumptions to fill in an ambigious scene.2) you say its unrelated to midna blowing up the castle as if I have agreed she did, its very much related when you consider the possibility that she did not, and he did like the lightning and shaking of power not present in the previous scene shows.
3) You did not counter me here, your using the screen going white to mean lightning and your ignoring the huge crack of an explosion...also not heard amongst Ganons low growl. Your reaching for straws...
1) Not even. What do we have? We have Midna shown attacking, and then the castle explodes. What's ambiguous about this?
2) It would have to be, though. Midna was shown attacking, while at the same time Ganondorf does nothing. If Ganondorf were to do anything at all, it would have to have been after Midna's attack had finished, and thus unrelated.
3)The lightning happened before the explosion by a second, which is not an indication of anything. The fact is that you have no hint of Ganondorf doing anything at all, whereas I have a clear scene of Midna attacking and the castle exploding.
I don't even know why this is important, since the fact remains that Ganondorf was inside a castle when it exploded, regardless of who did it. All evidence actually points to Midna, but it isn't relevant what the cause of the explosion is.
No counter attack was indicated, apart from the fact he stands victorious with her shadows crushed in his hands 🙄
If you remember the previous time Midna used that much power, she was rendered unconscious. Based on this precedent, Ganondorf
may not have had to do anything at all. Regardless, any possible counterattack would have had to have been after Midna finished her strike and exploded the castle.
It seems to just fall away with the flash of light. That can still be nullification than some sort of physical shatter of an energy barrier 😉 Defeating Ganon and chucking him from Zeldas body is not the same as causing a blow to a spirit without an anchor to the world.
Yes, I'm sure that slamming a huge magic trident into a barrier (shown to pierce it, too) followed by it shattering into hundreds of pieces is just "nullifying" it. Nah, it actually physically shattered there. Oh, and Midna didn't defeat Ganondorf there but nice try, she removed his spirit from Zelda's body, that is by definition removing his anchor to the world. I don't get why you want to deny this, it just shows that Midna's attacks could affect a possible spirit.
A castle is just a load of stone, walls etc....a mountain is vastly larger. Warwolf built by Edward Longshanks is a famous one, it leveled a castle wall but this is a red herring, your missing the point on purpose I suppose? I am just saying I dont think smashing castles is impressive at all, Raiden has already shown power to blow up a large building, I would be surprised if MK characters could not break stone walls when they have robots and bombs and planet soul rapers.
That's the point, a mountain is not as easy to break as a rock, and a castle is not as easy to break as a stone. I looked up Warwolf, and it just says it broke the outer wall, not necessarily any part of the castle itself. But I think you're missing something, too. Raiden's best feat of destruction is blowing up a castle, something he killed himself to do, and the target Onaga survived only because of an artifact making him immune to magic as opposed to any durability. It doesn't matter what you think is impressive, because Midna and Ganondorf performed the same feats as Raiden and Onaga, and they did it better. Raiden killed himself, and Midna knocked herself out at worst. Onaga survived because he was immune to magic, Ganondorf survived on his own durability. Comparing feats, the Zelda crew comes out on top.
"its at baseline" what do you mean? based on their physiology I dont think "disintegrating people" is an accurate term, their appendages (face, hands etc) are not even attached to them.
Baseline being human durability, as the Sages either are or have descended from the humanoid creatures of Hyrule in all cases. Their physiology doesn't really mean much in the end. Are you trying to claim that the Sages are not as durable as a human? The guardians of the Mirror of Twilight, and the ones charged with imprisoning and executing the worst criminals Hyrule has to offer, being weaker than humans is a rather extreme claim.
Originally posted by Burning thought
How does taking friends from a possibly dangerous location (clearly it was going to be dangerous regardless of the explosion) indicate it? If its immaterial then what it did to the physical world is irrelevent, the immaterial cannot feel that.
She knew what was going to happen. You don't know what someone else is going to do.
Bro, I know you have trouble with logic a lot of the time, but think about it. If it is an immaterial attack that still affected the physical world, what it did to the physical world can still be applied to gauge it's level of power. It's a castle busting attack, whether it is physical or not.
Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont know what that is trying to prove, that its large? fair enough I guess assuming their the same castle...
There's only one Hyrule Castle in Twilight Princess, bro. >_>
Originally posted by Burning thought
You just contradicted yourself, why?
I'm awesome. I would remember to protect myself, because I'm awesome.
Sage, being a significant plot point and meant to show how awesome Ganon is, cannot remember to block, even if he possessed the ability.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Baselessly? they have no feats and are not made up of flesh and blood, why would I assume they have some durability? all I have seen of them is that they die in a flash of light and leave no remains from nothing but a punch....
If they aren't made up of flesh and blood, then they would be immaterial. Meaning Ganon disintegrated an immaterial being with a physical attack. And look at that, the attack was nothing but a punch.
Originally posted by The ScenarioOnaga isn't in this fight but if he were in an army scenario he'd have access to the kamidogu. That's besides the point he' down Dorf without it as his strength, etc., power would be too much for Dorf anyways despite his complete dependence on the triforce of power. Don't compare the ig to the laughable triforce of power, ever. It's weak whereas the ig is about as powerful as you can get with few exceptions.
Ignoring the fact that Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power and Onaga does not have whatever his thing is. It's like comparing a Green Lantern ring to the Infinity Gauntlet.Sure, just make sure the opponent is actually fighting and not swaying back and forth like a drunken fool. I showed you Link cutting off a monster's three heads in one shot, that beats your portrayals right now.
Minimum number it could possibly be, yes, but you can't deny it without denying the density of rock.
The things I claim Link has done, though, see lifting a multi ton Dangoro. The fact that this puts him at strong enough to manhandle Mortal Kombat is your problem.
Yes, as they are portrayed, MK fighters can't punch off Link's head until he's already defeated, but I just showed you that Link doesn't need to have already won to cut a monsters three heads off, so there ya go. Link can just cut their heads off immediately.
You're the one speculating, see my reply to Allankles for details on the actual evidence.
Ignoring context. It was the Master Sword, it is stated in multiple that pretty much any other sword would not work, and Wind Waker in particular proves this.
But you can't kill him and he always comes back, is the real point.
I haven't beaten all the other MK games, so won't you leave the references out? You've only played, what, two games? You should know by now that Ganondorf and the Triforce of Power are pretty much always the same, and Twilight Princess was caused by and uses events from previous games, too. Stop being hypocritical.
That's nice, show it to me.
Well, that's just mean. I could say I find your desperate attempts to find one detail and latch on to it, then ignore everything else is pretty funny, but I'm not into flaming, so I'll keep my real opinion unwritten.
Prove it. Show me an MK fighter exploding someone with a punch at the start of a fight.
Here's the misunderstanding I never said Link couldn't cut a head off but he has to hit it at the right angle with the right amount of strength. My point is he isn't consistently portrayed as stronger than his foes or too strong for them to deal with.
Link won't have the chance and the mkers can do the same to him. Many have swords or weapons and in canon gameplay can kill without lowering them down to no energy. Mkers have more experience and greater skill imo.
I accept your concession here about the castle feat.
WW doesn't apply to this separate zelda tale. How don't you get this ? When in twilight does it say the master sword is necessary ? This also holds no bearing for fictional verses outside of hyrule/twilight.
If he comes back in 10 days he loses. It doesn't matter if he survives or is rezzed by someone 50 years into the future for the purposes of this thread he dies. Raiden also can completely self destruct and come back on his own unlike Dorf.
I played through tp and you should know we saw Dorf's rise to power, his banishment, and his return which means none of any other dorf's actions apply to this game.
We saw the moment the triforce chose him and his return that leaves out any other dorf feats as an alternate dorf and those feats outside of this one's reach. I'm smart and I can figure this out by playing one game. Kudos to me.
Not looking it up on youtube. Sorry.
My points are spot on and what happened off screen is unknown to us so neither side can use it as a feat because we're completely unclear on the details.
Dorf blew up one sage who in this game weren't shown any feats of physical combat or strength. Not only that but they were in shock and more than likely weren't prepared for this. If Dorf took out some physically imposing character I'd be impressed but this not so much.
Originally posted by The ScenarioDorf showing them why he has the power is a separate incident with the triforce but make no bones about it he accesses it when mortally wounded both times. Never has he come back or been mortally wounded outside accessing this in the game.
I'm going to be deleting some quotes here, just to let you know, since so many of these have devolved into repeating the same things over and over again. I'm not going to repeat myself, sorry in advance.Not even close. What about when he talks and makes a fist with a glowing Triforce? Is he attempting to revive himself there? No, you're just under the mistaken impression that the Triforce must glow when it it used. This is not so. The fact remains that once Beast Ganon was killed, Ganondorf returned to his "god" spirit form and proceeded to make a new body.
Ganondorf also has a species of dinosaurs he revived (the Dodongos) and quite and the revived Volvagia (a dragon) and Bongo-Bongo, plus the giant Armogohma and Stallord. Plus the Shadow Beasts that crushed all resistance basically anywhere they were. Ganondorf creating Zant shows he can make an unstoppable sorcerer who comes back from the dead and merge dimensions, not to mention transmute everything he touches. Shadow Beasts makes more of themselves every time they kill and can revive each other in seconds, those normal troops are better than pretty much any other army you've shown, not to mention that Zant can just transform people into new Shadow Beasts whenever. This in addition to the Stalfos that put themselves together or the half dragon-half lizard Aerofols, who can fly, and the armored Lizalfos and Darknuts. Ganondorf got a lot more variety, it seems.
Midna TKs teleports, and then smashes a frozen city with a massive volcanic rock. Ermac gets crushed. By he way, I can lift a 45 pound weight and crush a tangerine in my hands.
Quit your flaming, please. Now, then, please show me an MK character hitting an intangible or invisible foe.
That's just because you underestimate Link and seem to think that losing to him makes you weak. Also, if you'd played the game you would know that Link can't beat Shadow Beasts without Midna's help at first, since they always revive themselves before the last one can be killed. That's more than formidable enough, if your enemies won't stay dead.
Prove it. Why don't you show me the monsters in MK beating a main character? Oh, if you can't that means one person just runs through all of them, too, so sad. Please don't forget that quite a few of Link's enemies revive themselves after they seem to be dead.
Show me any of those doing this and I might consider them a threat.
What does this have to do with armies not having twilight resistance?
Emphasis on "greater." If Link can't kill them in one hit, then they must be awesome, seeing as Link is so super strong.
Done so several times, not going to repeat myself again.
Already proved it, just go back a page.
But Link can hit a one inch pole from a town away. That's good enough to hit someone in the eye. You have no such comparisons, though, to prove that Sub-Zero can freeze him.
Link is proven to not be phased much by axes, even in game, seeing as they don't even deal major damage. MK fighters can't rip people in half unless the victim is standing still doing nothing, so they can't do it to Link based on this portrayal. But if you want go by actual canon rather than stupid portrayals, then sure MKers can rip people in half, but it'd be hypocritical of you to deny Link's feats.
lol. Lifting a multi ton rock takes less strength than ripping off an arm. You crack me up.
That was you, though, taking stuff out of context. Zant's speed feats are super to MK's, therefore he is faster. Not that hard.
Yes, like I said one dragon and other enemies hardly a threat in the grand scheme of things compared to the mk armies which by the way I have left out centaurs. This is Motaro's race as well. It's just too much for the militia of an army Dorf and Zant have access to. It's like comparing the florida state police to the federal government.
Zant isn't really unstoppable by any means. He pushes around a pathetic army and gets stopped by Link. The guy shouldn't be in the same paragraph as the word unstoppable since he's been stopped.
Zant can't transform those with magic protecting them and people like Shang Tsung who can steal souls even in death Shao's magic has him return to life. Shang Tsung can also steal Zant's soul as well severing the process.
The shadow beasts aren't formidable and aren't anything resembling an army. You don't need an army to conquer hyrule.
You can lift a 45 pound weight but you can't destroy the same weight at 10 pounds. You are trying to change the subject for you to have a point but my point is clear. 45 pounds weighs over 4 times a ten pound free weight yet destroying it is much harder.
Intangible characters have to turn tangible eventually and never once was Midna some intangible nightmare she used the ability when she needed to but was never beyond contact or portrayed this way. Reptile can turn invisible as well doesn't mean he can't be hit despite this ability.
Link fights a few at a time and later on no more than 5 from memory which are easy to defeat. I mean a wolf can beat them in a few blows so I don't see any elite mk fighter struggling at all with an army backing them to defeat these shadow beasts.
The monsters and armies are mostly battling earth while single combatants lock battle with each other.
It isn't my job to make you become aware or educate you entirely with the mk mythos. You need to read up on them to further continue this debate a little.
It was an example of what the magic these characters use is capable of. I've already explained how the soul stealing feat was resisted by Raiden for his fighters so it's obvious they have the power to negate the twilight magic.
No, I don't see Link as some super killing machine just a guy thrown into an awesome situation but since he's the hero of destiny he has aid, the gear, etc. A badass isn't Link he's just a hero who at the end of the day triumphs but not easily or with authority.
You haven't proven it you speculated which isn't the same thing.
Again speculation. You honestly believe this fictional stuff weighs this much despite no proof.
Except of course with Sub Zero having always been portrayed as freezing people with his ice powers from the first game on. Why do I even waste my time you haven't played the games nor should I expect you to understand them. If you want to claim Sub Zero can't freeze people then have fun. Not wasting my time with something this ignorant and trivial.
Link can be hurt by axes and mkers have shrugged off arrows in the back, weapons, etc. in canon gameplay that doesn't mean they are suddenly immune to them just like with Link. If an axe generally hits him it hurts but if at the right angle it strikes him he shrugs it off like he did in the canon gameplay.
We don't know how much the rock weighs but we do know slamming andre the giant isn't more impressive than ripping someone's head off.
Zant running wildly isn't a combat speed feat. Link perceives his attacks just fine just like the mkers would also do. Running wildly looking like an idiot isn't flashlike in any regard.
Speculation.
You don't know anything in relation to Dangoro's weight so it's once again speculation.
Originally posted by The ScenarioHe was fine you're right but we don't even know how the blast occurred or if it even hit him.
Yet he was obviously unharmed, and we saw all prior events, so your criticism is invalid.I like to think I work outside the box. What I don't understand is why you seem to be trying to give Ganondorf an ability that make him even harder to beat and then insist that it means he's weak. You're going to need to face facts here, man, and that is that Ganondorf revived himself several times over the game.
Odd. You think that Beast Ganon, laying on the ground not moving, means he is not dead or dying? That's fascinating. Then when his spirit emerges and makes a new body pretty obviously, you choose to not see it? Incredible.
It's so funny when you think you've won. We did see the blast hitting, all that you're doing is denying a cutscene and your own eyes, I'm guessing out of spite.
All the easier to beat them, then.
Just go watch the cutscene again. We saw Midna transform, we saw Ganondorf right there, we saw Midna attack, and we saw the explosion. Denying these events is denying your ability to see.
I don't think it means he's weak I think it makes him a shapeshifter of sorts. He only used it a few times to change shapes in the game not to avoid an attack or anything.
I think his molecules chose another form and that form was defeated. He'd need the triforce of power to access or bring him back like he tried against Link.
I am not denying anything. I stated dorf was a head when last we saw and then is in human form seconds later so we don't know what happened in between but do know dorf had time to change shape.
How does that make them easier to beat ?
I don't deny those events I deny your interpretation of what we don't see. We don't know what happened yet you insist Dorf tanked a blast of this magnitude. You can't prove it just keep insisting. I agree to everything I see just not what you really want to have occurred.
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
She knew what was going to happen. You don't know what someone else is going to do.Bro, I know you have trouble with logic a lot of the time, but think about it. If it is an immaterial attack that still affected the physical world, what it did to the physical world can still be applied to gauge it's level of power. It's a castle busting attack, whether it is physical or not.
There's only one Hyrule Castle in Twilight Princess, bro. >_>
I'm awesome. I would remember to protect myself, because I'm awesome.
Sage, being a significant plot point and meant to show how awesome Ganon is, cannot remember to block, even if he possessed the ability.
If they aren't made up of flesh and blood, then they would be immaterial. Meaning Ganon disintegrated an immaterial being with a physical attack. And look at that, the attack was nothing but a punch.
How do you know she did? theres more than one reason to transport friends away.
Pot calling kettle black, someone trying to desperatly piece together unfound claims is saying someone else has a problem with logic. You cannot gauge all magic by physical means, here are limitless applications and trying to deduce that said magic attack that affects immaterial beings apprently created some sort of "pressure" equivalent to what SP belives is unfounded.
Perhaps but I dont know that theres only one castle.
Thats a stretch of the imagination, just because they do not have flesh they are instantly immaterial? so machines, stone, trees are all immaterial since they do not have flesh? stop making a mess of this argument please and realise they have no feats and their form is unkown.
Originally posted by The Scenario
No, see, because the screen whiting out and the scene change are separate events. Watch the scene, after Midna attacks and the screen goes white, and then a few seconds after that, the black bars framing the screen disappear. That's the scene change, not the whiteout. The Fused Shadows are the embodiment of the Interloper's magic, the Light Spirit even shows you that the pieces are magic given a physical form. Ganondorf crushed that.1) Not even. What do we have? We have Midna shown attacking, and then the castle explodes. What's ambiguous about this?
2) It would have to be, though. Midna was shown attacking, while at the same time Ganondorf does nothing. If Ganondorf were to do anything at all, it would have to have been after Midna's attack had finished, and thus unrelated.
3)The lightning happened before the explosion by a second, which is not an indication of anything. The fact is that you have no hint of Ganondorf doing anything at all, whereas I have a clear scene of Midna attacking and the castle exploding.
I don't even know why this is important, since the fact remains that Ganondorf was inside a castle when it exploded, regardless of who did it. All evidence actually points to Midna, but it isn't relevant what the cause of the explosion is.
If you remember the previous time Midna used that much power, she was rendered unconscious. Based on this precedent, Ganondorf
may not have had to do anything at all. Regardless, any possible counterattack would have had to have been after Midna finished her strike and exploded the castle.Yes, I'm sure that slamming a huge magic trident into a barrier (shown to pierce it, too) followed by it shattering into hundreds of pieces is just "nullifying" it. Nah, it actually physically shattered there. Oh, and Midna didn't defeat Ganondorf there but nice try, she removed his spirit from Zelda's body, that is by definition removing his anchor to the world. I don't get why you want to deny this, it just shows that Midna's attacks could affect a possible spirit.
That's the point, a mountain is not as easy to break as a rock, and a castle is not as easy to break as a stone. I looked up Warwolf, and it just says it broke the outer wall, not necessarily any part of the castle itself. But I think you're missing something, too. Raiden's best feat of destruction is blowing up a castle, something he killed himself to do, and the target Onaga survived only because of an artifact making him immune to magic as opposed to any durability. It doesn't matter what you think is impressive, because Midna and Ganondorf performed the same feats as Raiden and Onaga, and they did it better. Raiden killed himself, and Midna knocked herself out at worst. Onaga survived because he was immune to magic, Ganondorf survived on his own durability. Comparing feats, the Zelda crew comes out on top.
Baseline being human durability, as the Sages either are or have descended from the humanoid creatures of Hyrule in all cases. Their physiology doesn't really mean much in the end. Are you trying to claim that the Sages are not as durable as a human? The guardians of the Mirror of Twilight, and the ones charged with imprisoning and executing the worst criminals Hyrule has to offer, being weaker than humans is a rather extreme claim.
You said that as if your holding the script book in front of you, you do not actually know yet your trying to create a series of events and state them as if their fact. Dont do it...this does not account for no sound other than Ganon growling (no explosion or sound from the lightning) and this also does not account for the fact Ganon was victorious, so theres more time to be considered after the strike. And the physical form has no durability, so?
1) that the timing is all over the place, lightning and explosions are not present in the attacks strike and that Midna lost as well.
2) Theres not much shown at all, we do not even see what Ganon did when she struck, you know nothing of the scene and neither do the people your trying to convince....
3) 😆 now the lightning and the explosion itself is not an indication of anything just because its not hinted at when she strikes? your holding onto this point for grim death, thats not going to convince me of your belief in a scene we do not see.
So thats a fact is it? Ganon teleported, while your assuming it was Midna or Ganon, for all you know that release of power happened after Midna had the fused Shadows yanked off her head and Ganon teleporting away to safety. Also, you know....being the focus of an attack is more impressive, theres no indciation that the "explosion" did anything to Ganons form.
Well if we assume she used the same power/same amount of power in that strike knowing shes going to leave herself to Ganons mercy if she fails, earlier you were claiming Midna is not stupid and would not do things she cannot do like attacking intangible beings, but now your argument has changed shes willing to knock herself out on strike...
Its energy, the trident seems some form of energy as well, sicne their both magic energy wheres the "physical shattering"? does not work, something could easily fall apart/shatter if whats holding it up (zants magic) is nullified what your doing here is choosing what sounds most impressive to you. I am denying what is not evident, theres no comparison to kicking Ganon out of possession and using a magic trident to hit a possiby immaterial spiritual form.....
I said "a lot of stone" when describing it, your trying to pick at words that make no sense being compared to a mountain 🙄 and give me a big enough contraption with a big enough rock and I could probably smash a mountain but a castle is not a mountain hence silly comparison is silly. How am I missing something? did it better? first your assuming again that Midna did actually do it and I have acceepted something I have yet to see as fact just because you belive it is and Onaga durability is irrelevent tbh, the feat still shows Raiden with as much, if not more power than midna. His own durability? the durability of a immaterial looking form that he rarely if ever uses, assuming its his choice to use it in the first place....what an impressive durability feat 😐
Wow what another land slide of baseless assumtions, first that their automatically assumed to have human durabiltiy despite not having human physiology (I dont have a glowing body with a floating face/hands, dont know about you...). Not really, based on actual feats their ghostly creatures but they can also be struck, I dont know what their made of but I tell you one thing, theres no indication of any durability there so I think the extreme claims are yours to be made. Also I like how you try and big them up, yet their standing there terrified and defenceless, for all their apprent power and durability they do not even attempt a single action....and they have a huge amount of time before Ganon breaks the chains.
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. I have seen each one. In each one they are barely above human speed, if they are above human speed at all. More versatile my dick, Link's a walking armoury, he is more versatile than the vast majority of MK characters. Ganondorf with a punch has pulverised several feet of solid steel in OoT, so no, MK characters do not physically pack a greater punch. Not even counting the strength feats that allow them to push the MK character's torsos off of their waists. More mobile? No, Ganondorf walks slow most of the time, but he has shown to consistently be very fast, and is capable of leaping 50 feet in the air quickly, ala WW, when he can even dodge light arrows while doing so. Also, stop calling that an attack. He nearly died, he cannot spam it. Oh, and there would be time for Ganondorf to just, you know, teleport away. Like we clearly see Quanchi doing. 😐 Yay cinders! Ganondorf has just pulverised islands while the bulk of his power is sealed away! Harhar bones. Ganondorf can disintegrate with them. 🙂 Shinnok's amulet is IIRC the single most powerful artifact in MK, so yeah, it doing something Ganondorf does with a punch is not impressive.2. A small collection of mortals. And once Raiden goes, so does the protection. Killing Raiden is a simple matter for Ganondorf, or even Zant. Raiden is not that tough. Ganondorf can physically dominate him. Teleport out of the Twilight? You are explicitly not aware you are under its effects, you just are, and are powerless. Siphon ability to resist Twilight from the Twili? Seriously? Zant had perfect control over them, he teleports them back, then teleports to Khan and proceeds to effortlessly crush him. 🙂 Also, drain the Twili? When is any shit like this done?
3. Nah, can wait for you to be on a proper computer.
4. Biggoron's Sword? Actually, it doesn't harm him, you can wail on him, but only the Master Sword will finish him. Megaton Hammer is the same. Oh, and this was explicitly retconned in Wind Waker as well, only the Master Sword can harm him, explicitly stated. Supported by Link slashing at him with a less than full power Master Sword and clanging against him as it would steel, and surviving Valoo's destruction of the Foresaken Fortress. Oh, and in Twilight Princess, the Sword of the Sages was unable to kill him either, even though it was already impaled in him before he got the Triforce of Power. '
5. They are faster if you ignore evidence, sure. Fly? ZOMG NO WAI Ganondorf can also fly. 😐 Zant and Ganondorf can both teleport as well. Striking feats? Show me one disintegrating someone with a punch. Not that "striking feats" isn't inherently a cop-out, Ganondorf and Link are proven much stronger. Oh, and what superior striking feats do the MK fighters really have? Shao Kahn was not that impressive in the intro to Armageddon, for example. Questionable? He tanked Light Arrows, which destroy evil. As in, completely vaporize it, leaving nothing left at all. He tanks these eeasily. The Master Sword was unable to kill him in WW, and maybe in TP too, though, the ending was oddly vague. Beyond that, the magic of the Light Spirits, which is explicitly harmful to Twilight denizens, and this particular spirit being the strongest one, did nothing to Zant, who then easily suppressed it with telekinesis before sealing it. Yeah, no resistance to magic. GTFO. Midna feat my ass, I presented many. And the Midna feat is legit, he stuck around, where else would he get her Fused Shadows to crush from? The same Fused Shadows that enabled Midna to curbstomp Zant and shatter the city-wide barrier Zant put up without effort.
6. Only I have brought up nothing that cannot be used in combat. Freezing over a city for example. Destroying an island. Infecting an entire country with Twilight Magic. Stop.
7. No, he would effortlessly crush them all.
What speed feats does Ganon have? The MK characters have been shown to move from point to point on a battlefield with far more mobility, speed and skill than Link and co. Ganondorf jumped? Wow! You do know he can fly? And his flight speed is slower than MK's best.
Saying Ganon would physically dominate Raiden doesn't mean a thing. It really doesn't.
Disintegrating someone with a punch is what you were using to big up Dorf. And I gave you examples of MK characters that could do that and more. Tsung can utterly destroy marble and steel with his blasts. Quan-Chi can disintegrate people post MK4, he betrays Shinnok with the Elder god's own amulet and obliterates him.
When it comes to feats of destruction in combat MK have Dorf trumped if that feat is all you can scrounge up. Why you're using it so much is beyond me. MK characters are destroying the battlefield in just about every game since after MK 4.
In the Shaolin Monks intro Shang Tsung is pulverizing giant pillars with his magic strikes. Liu Kang is destroying those same giant marble pillars with simple kicks. Goro too is destroying giant pillars with his blows. When it comes to striking power MK characters have always been impressive, certainly more impressive than what Dorf and other LoZ characters have shown on average.
I already said part of Khan's army could teleport into Twilight to take it over... But if they got polymorphed? Guess what?.. Khan would have his sorcerers and shadow priests open up abduction portals for the Twili so that he could use Twili souls to empower his army with their abilities. And this is the worst case scenario.
And my point about Dorf not being immune to magic ala Onaga still stands. Ok the master sword isn't the only weapon that can harm him, nor is it the only weapon or magical means that has defeated him. Furthermore when you're arguing crossover battles you can't use arguments like that. That only applies for LoZ where the only weapon that he actually faces are the Master Sword and light arrows. Again, this is a crossover, to suggest that the same would apply for MK is erroneous, since unlike LoZ MK has more firepower per character.
Link is not as versatile as MKers in combat on average. Having magic on the level of Quan-Chi, Tsung et al allows them to devise different ways to crush an enemy. A guy like Ermac is more versatile too. Having a boomerang, hookshot, ball and chain, bow and arrow, these don't make Link more versatile. Since every MK character has both ranged abilities and close range abilities. What makes them more versatile is what they can accomplish with that cryomancy, pryomancy, telekinesis, necromancy, mystical power etc.
The can create things as exotic as constructs to simple things like mystical blast that would tear a chunk through a monsters. Last I checked Link's arsenal doesn't allow him to do that.
We know magic generated to fight evil can harm and kill Ganondorf. Onaga's magical immunity transcended good and evil, since the Kamidogu represented the magic of all the realms, good ones and evil ones alike.
So big difference. Furthermore, the kind of nasty dark magic Outworld is known for is unlike anything Dorf has faced before.
Take away the bs feats and focus on only combat feats and this isn't a contest. Scenario is the only one who was arguing in terms of the actual tactics LoZ has available to them given the overwhelming odds they face.
Creating pocket barriers of twilight to protect Hyrule and to possible warp any military force that gets through.
I apologize severely for what I am about to do here.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Onaga isn't in this fight but if he were in an army scenario he'd have access to the kamidogu. That's besides the point he' down Dorf without it as his strength, etc., power would be too much for Dorf anyways despite his complete dependence on the triforce of power. Don't compare the ig to the laughable triforce of power, ever. It's weak whereas the ig is about as powerful as you can get with few exceptions.
If he's not here it doesn't really matter how Ganondorf would kill him.
Here's the misunderstanding I never said Link couldn't cut a head off but he has to hit it at the right angle with the right amount of strength. My point is he isn't consistently portrayed as stronger than his foes or too strong for them to deal with.
Nothing prevents him from doing this to any MK character he comes across immediately, whereas they are portrayed as having to go through a whole fight before they can rip off heads. That's what your portrayal argument says, at least.
Link won't have the chance and the mkers can do the same to him. Many have swords or weapons and in canon gameplay can kill without lowering them down to no energy. Mkers have more experience and greater skill imo.
Show me, since all of their portrayals so far have been having to go through a fight before they can do anything. This is all just semantics, though, as none of that is actually canon, being gameplay mechanics. In my opinion, Link has much greater strength and skill.
I accept your concession here about the castle feat.
In what world does "I've already argued this, go look there" equal a concession? It's obviously Midna destroyed the castle and Ganondorf tanked it, any argument is out of sheer contrariness.
WW doesn't apply to this separate zelda tale. How don't you get this ? When in twilight does it say the master sword is necessary ? This also holds no bearing for fictional verses outside of hyrule/twilight.
You've played, what, one Zelda game and left another unfinished? If you had played more, you might understand that all of them are connected in some way. I'm sorry you're ignorant of this fact, but Ganondorf and the Triforce of Power remain essentially the same.
If he comes back in 10 days he loses. It doesn't matter if he survives or is rezzed by someone 50 years into the future for the purposes of this thread he dies. Raiden also can completely self destruct and come back on his own unlike Dorf.
Stop ignoring the fact that Ganondorf has been killed and come back in under a minute at least twice, and at most three times. How fast has Raiden come back? If it was 10 days he loses. Also, lol, he got corrupted by it.
I played through tp and you should know we saw Dorf's rise to power, his banishment, and his return which means none of any other dorf's actions apply to this game.
Except his ignoring the Sage's Sword and killing the Sages of Water. His banishment doesn't matter since he came back easily after corrupting the Twilight Realm and breaking the Mirror of Twilight. Plus his reforming from Midna scattering his particles, and coming back after being killed as Beast Ganon in the boss fight.
We saw the moment the triforce chose him and his return that leaves out any other dorf feats as an alternate dorf and those feats outside of this one's reach. I'm smart and I can figure this out by playing one game. Kudos to me.
But without playing the other games, you don't have enough information. Specifically, the end of Ocarina of Time proves you wrong. Everything before Link got the Master Sword in OoT would also be available. This would include the Death Curses placed on the Deku Tree and Jabu-Jabu, the creation of Queen Gohma, the revival of King Dodongo and the Dodongo species, the creation of Barinade, and placing a giant boulder over the entrance to the Goron mines. I know for a fact you've played through those parts.
Not looking it up on youtube. Sorry.
So...you're conceding?
My points are spot on and what happened off screen is unknown to us so neither side can use it as a feat because we're completely unclear on the details.
Except we have the details. Midna attack, the castle explodes. That's extremely clear.
Dorf blew up one sage who in this game weren't shown any feats of physical combat or strength. Not only that but they were in shock and more than likely weren't prepared for this. If Dorf took out some physically imposing character I'd be impressed but this not so much.
Still proves he can explode a guy with a punch, haven't seen that from Mortal Kombat.
Originally posted by quanchi112
[B]Dorf showing them why he has the power is a separate incident with the triforce but make no bones about it he accesses it when mortally wounded both times. Never has he come back or been mortally wounded outside accessing this in the game.
Except for right here, where Ganondorf comes back from death in spirit form. Right before this he recovered from being scattered all the place and right after he makes a new body. This example proves your theory untrue. What you need to do now is make a new theory that includes this new evidence, like a scientist.
Yes, like I said one dragon and other enemies hardly a threat in the grand scheme of things compared to the mk armies which by the way I have left out centaurs. This is Motaro's race as well. It's just too much for the militia of an army Dorf and Zant have access to. It's like comparing the florida state police to the federal government.
Except where Florida has a statewide mind-control device (you know it as NemeBro) that makes the Feds useless and/or join Florida. You're always making these crazy comparisons. Need I remind you again of the twilight barrier you haven't shown they can even enter yet, and the twilight that transforms the MK army into harmless souls or Shadow Beasts? Not to forget the endless resurrection chain and zombie infection Shadow Beasts do.
Zant isn't really unstoppable by any means. He pushes around a pathetic army and gets stopped by Link. The guy shouldn't be in the same paragraph as the word unstoppable since he's been stopped.
As if Noob Saibot and Scorpion are any better. Scorpion has been defeated and killed as well, same as Noob, and both during Armageddon . Zant can be revived endlessly, can transform people into Shadow Beasts, take away their powers, and revive his own undead with his magic from Ganondorf.
Zant can't transform those with magic protecting them and people like Shang Tsung who can steal souls even in death Shao's magic has him return to life. Shang Tsung can also steal Zant's soul as well severing the process.
False. Zant is the one that transformed Midna into an imp, and in doing so took away her powers. Nothing prevents Zant from just waving his hand and taking away Shang Tsung's powers by turning him into an imp. Zant also turns the Twili into Shadow Beasts, doesn't look like their magic helped them, either. Zant can just turn everybody into powerless imps or Shadow Beasts.
The shadow beasts aren't formidable and aren't anything resembling an army. You don't need an army to conquer hyrule.
The Shadow Beast revive each other and transform people they kill into more of them, how is that not formidable? You need to kill all of them at the same time or they'll just come back to life. That alone makes them more formidable than the currently featless MK armies. Once the Shadow Beasts kill a few, their numbers will increase extremely quickly.
You can lift a 45 pound weight but you can't destroy the same weight at 10 pounds. You are trying to change the subject for you to have a point but my point is clear. 45 pounds weighs over 4 times a ten pound free weight yet destroying it is much harder.
Not even close to the same thing, given how tiny the difference is. A bridge section could weigh several hundred tons, made of heavy stone, versus a human, mostly water and bone, that weighs less than 200 hundred pounds, a difference in an order of magnitude. It's more akin to lifting a hundred pound weight and crushing a bug. Or, like Midna, you can just drop the weight on the bug to achieve the same results.
Intangible characters have to turn tangible eventually and never once was Midna some intangible nightmare she used the ability when she needed to but was never beyond contact or portrayed this way. Reptile can turn invisible as well doesn't mean he can't be hit despite this ability.
There is a major difference between invisible and intangible that I don't think you're getting. Reptile could be hit if you find him, but Midna being intangible means she just passes through your weapons even if you can see her. It's not like any of the other MK characters are portrayed as being as strong as Midna anyway. With the Fused Shadows she crushes them.
Link fights a few at a time and later on no more than 5 from memory which are easy to defeat. I mean a wolf can beat them in a few blows so I don't see any elite mk fighter struggling at all with an army backing them to defeat these shadow beasts.
Stop ignoring that he needed Midna's help. She put up an energy field that hit all of them at once, precisely so they wouldn't revive. Link as quite a bit better than any wolf in any case. Don't forget that leaving one left alive revives all the others, so if they're spread out you're basically screwed. Once Zant transforms a few and the Shadow Beasts start killing and gaining numbers, the tide will start to turn rather quickly.
The monsters and armies are mostly battling earth while single combatants lock battle with each other.
So?
It isn't my job to make you become aware or educate you entirely with the mk mythos. You need to read up on them to further continue this debate a little.
Are you serious? Quanchi, yes, it is your job to back up what you say and actually prove your claims. Besides, the only info there is says that billions were killed when Earthrealm became part of Outrealm, and no mention is made of jets, tanks, or bombs at all. All that was left were the ones Raiden protected. Oh, and this is MK3, not MK9, so don't know why you bring it up.
It was an example of what the magic these characters use is capable of. I've already explained how the soul stealing feat was resisted by Raiden for his fighters so it's obvious they have the power to negate the twilight magic.
Sure, but only for a few people, not an army, and nothing protects them from Zant turning them into powerless imps. (And, not in MK9, so unusable according to your rules.)
No, I don't see Link as some super killing machine just a guy thrown into an awesome situation but since he's the hero of destiny he has aid, the gear, etc. A badass isn't Link he's just a hero who at the end of the day triumphs but not easily or with authority.
Really, because I do see Link as some super awesome killing machine thrown into an awesome situation. He's incredibly badass, and that's part of why he wins, in addition to the Master Sword. You can't really deny this, so I don't know why you try.
Again speculation. You honestly believe this fictional stuff weighs this much despite no proof.
My proof is that actual rock really does weigh this much. Based on Dangoro's size, that's the minimum he could weigh. The fact you would deny this despite actual evidence just shows how desperate you are.
Except of course with Sub Zero having always been portrayed as freezing people with his ice powers from the first game on. Why do I even waste my time you haven't played the games nor should I expect you to understand them. If you want to claim Sub Zero can't freeze people then have fun. Not wasting my time with something this ignorant and trivial.
Maybe, but outside of fatalities where no one can defend and is near dead already, it just doesn't work. You even showed me a scene of Scorpion breaking out of ice multiple times, so obviously Sub-Zero's powers fail pretty hard since it only lasts for a second.
Link can be hurt by axes and mkers have shrugged off arrows in the back, weapons, etc. in canon gameplay that doesn't mean they are suddenly immune to them just like with Link. If an axe generally hits him it hurts but if at the right angle it strikes him he shrugs it off like he did in the canon gameplay.
Link has shrugged off axes, swords, bombs, everything thrown at him and never gets cut in half, while MK characters do. Obviously they're portrayed as being weaker.
We don't know how much the rock weighs but we do know slamming andre the giant isn't more impressive than ripping someone's head off.
Uh, dude. We do know how much it weighs, based on the density of the material he is known to be made of. That's fact.
Zant running wildly isn't a combat speed feat. Link perceives his attacks just fine just like the mkers would also do. Running wildly looking like an idiot isn't flashlike in any regard.
Except when he's moving that fast spinning two swords around (like in his fight,) in which case MK characters can't really stop him.
Originally posted by quanchi112
He was fine you're right but we don't even know how the blast occurred or if it even hit him.
Stop ignoring Midna. She attacked, the castle exploded, that's it.
I don't think it means he's weak I think it makes him a shapeshifter of sorts. He only used it a few times to change shapes in the game not to avoid an attack or anything.
We know he's a shapeshifter, and we know he's immortal. He came back from death at least twice and from bodily destruction, especially from his Beast Ganon death.
I think his molecules chose another form and that form was defeated. He'd need the triforce of power to access or bring him back like he tried against Link.
That form was dead, so he went into spirit form, and shortly after made a new body. Nothing prevents him from doing the same against MK, you know.
I am not denying anything. I stated dorf was a head when last we saw and then is in human form seconds later so we don't know what happened in between but do know dorf had time to change shape.
After tanking Midna's attack, which destroyed the castle, yes.
How does that make them easier to beat ?
No army, and Quan Chi won't revive anyone that dies. You serious?
I don't deny those events I deny your interpretation of what we don't see. We don't know what happened yet you insist Dorf tanked a blast of this magnitude. You can't prove it just keep insisting. I agree to everything I see just not what you really want to have occurred.
There is no interpretation, I'm working entirely with what we see, which is Midna attacking and the castle exploding. And we see Ganondorf inside when this occurs.
Originally posted by Burning thought
You said that as if your holding the script book in front of you, you do not actually know yet your trying to create a series of events and state them as if their fact. Dont do it...this does not account for no sound other than Ganon growling (no explosion or sound from the lightning) and this also does not account for the fact Ganon was victorious, so theres more time to be considered after the strike. And the physical form has no durability, so?
I say it as it I have eyes and ears. We see that attack hit, you're nitpicking and latching on to details that are less than important. All the information needed is right there, the light simply segues into a scene change (that black bars make this obvious) before the explosion is heard. We still know it happened, so denying it won't help you. We know that Ganondorf won in the end, but that does not mean he was attacking or counterattacking at the same moment Midna was, as we see Midna's attack finish before Ganondorf does anything. If he did do something, it would have had to have been after Midna's attack.
1) that the timing is all over the place, lightning and explosions are not present in the attacks strike and that Midna lost as well.2) Theres not much shown at all, we do not even see what Ganon did when she struck, you know nothing of the scene and neither do the people your trying to convince....
3) 😆 now the lightning and the explosion itself is not an indication of anything just because its not hinted at when she strikes? your holding onto this point for grim death, thats not going to convince me of your belief in a scene we do not see.
So thats a fact is it? Ganon teleported, while your assuming it was Midna or Ganon, for all you know that release of power happened after Midna had the fused Shadows yanked off her head and Ganon teleporting away to safety. Also, you know....being the focus of an attack is more impressive, theres no indciation that the "explosion" did anything to Ganons form.
1) The timing matches given the teleport delay, and I've already shown you how. We know that Midna lost, but again that was after she finished her attack, since we saw the attack.
2) We know what Ganondorf was doing as she struck. Moments before, he was roaring at her, and even you have pointed out that he was growling as the attack commenced. After that point, the scene changed and the attack finished, showing the explosion.
3) The lightning is shown when the screen goes white, but unfortunately the scene changes before the explosion. Even from the barrier buster, the explosion occurred much later than the first light seen. We still know that Midna was the source, though, given that she was the only one attacking. If you have an alternate theory, please present it using only the evidence.
Is that your theory? If so, it does not sync up with the evidence given, which is Midna's attack, previously seen to be highly destructive, and the castle's destructiion matching the barrier's. Nothing else seen has shown that level of destruction, and the Fused Shadow have been taken from Midna before, and no explosion occurred.
Well if we assume she used the same power/same amount of power in that strike knowing shes going to leave herself to Ganons mercy if she fails, earlier you were claiming Midna is not stupid and would not do things she cannot do like attacking intangible beings, but now your argument has changed shes willing to knock herself out on strike...
My argument never changed. Midna knows she can touch Ganondorf thanks to earlier removing him from Zelda, so she knows she isn't attacking something she'd go right through. She's perfectly willing to do anything to kill Ganondorf, even shown when she made herself vulnerable while breaking the barrier. She's just doing that same thing again.
Its energy, the trident seems some form of energy as well, sicne their both magic energy wheres the "physical shattering"? does not work, something could easily fall apart/shatter if whats holding it up (zants magic) is nullified what your doing here is choosing what sounds most impressive to you. I am denying what is not evident, theres no comparison to kicking Ganon out of possession and using a magic trident to hit a possiby immaterial spiritual form.....
So your argument is that Midna made a huge weapon and stabbed into the barrier, thereby making an anti-magic field that turned off the barrier's power source, thus causing it to fall apart. Great job there, Occam. 👆
As opposed to just, "She hit it really hard and it broke." No, really, I like yours better, since it gives Midna a new power to just nullify magic. She could just hit a random MK sorcerer and nullify their all of their magical powers. Heck, that even proves that when she hit Ganondorf, she was nullifying his magic, so he actually tanked the hit without any powers backing him up at all!
/sarcasm, if you missed it. I would normally admire your ability to just make something up to try making feats sound less impressive, but that really just takes the cake. Midna can nullify magic, an ability never hinted at before and actually makes her better at fighting MK sorcerers, just because you don't want to admit that hitting a barrier really hard can break it.
I said "a lot of stone" when describing it, your trying to pick at words that make no sense being compared to a mountain 🙄 and give me a big enough contraption with a big enough rock and I could probably smash a mountain but a castle is not a mountain hence silly comparison is silly. How am I missing something? did it better? first your assuming again that Midna did actually do it and I have acceepted something I have yet to see as fact just because you belive it is and Onaga durability is irrelevent tbh, the feat still shows Raiden with as much, if not more power than midna. His own durability? the durability of a immaterial looking form that he rarely if ever uses, assuming its his choice to use it in the first place....what an impressive durability feat 😐
"A lot of stone." vs. "A lot of rock." Same thing, you're trying to imply that Ganondorf can be hurt because maybe an MK character can break stone. You're taking something small, and trying to apply it to something much bigger, as if a trebuchet breaking a stone wall means it can level an entire stone castle. You're missing something because Raiden blew up a castle and killed himself doing it, while Midna did the same thing and, at worst, was knocked unconscious. They did it better because Raiden's feat did show as much power as Midna, the difference is that one of died doing it, and wasn't Midna. She wins purely because performing the same exact feat didn't kill her, when a darned Thunder God tried it and died. And Ganondorf tanked it, yes, meaning he can so do again.
Wow what another land slide of baseless assumtions, first that their automatically assumed to have human durabiltiy despite not having human physiology (I dont have a glowing body with a floating face/hands, dont know about you...). Not really, based on actual feats their ghostly creatures but they can also be struck, I dont know what their made of but I tell you one thing, theres no indication of any durability there so I think the extreme claims are yours to be made. Also I like how you try and big them up, yet their standing there terrified and defenceless, for all their apprent power and durability they do not even attempt a single action....and they have a huge amount of time before Ganon breaks the chains.
Not quite. You're trying to imply that a Sage is less durable than a human based on absolutely nothing, whereas we know from previous games that Sages are always humans or at least humanoid creatures. At most, they're implied to be magical beings, having been alive for centuries and lack faces. I could point out that their composition highly resembles the chains and sword (moreso the sword) they used to imprison and execute Ganondorf. Don't ignore it, but these guys are stated to be the guardians of the Mirror of Twilight and the live at the Arbiter's Grounds, a prison and execution ground for the worst criminals around, though now it's crawling with undead and the souls of the damned. Oh, and it's implied these guys forged the Master Sword, too. Ganondorf terrified those guys, yes.
The fact is that there's little evidence in any direction, and their faces and hands don't really indicate anything; it's not like Rayman is a weakling. It's more than possible that the Sages are ethereal, but that just proves Ganondorf can hit intangible opponents and destroy them. If you look closely, you can see the Sage Of Water is decapitated when Ganondorf hits him.
Originally posted by The Scenario
I say it as it I have eyes and ears. We see that attack hit, you're nitpicking and latching on to details that are less than important. All the information needed is right there, the light simply segues into a scene change (that black bars make this obvious) before the explosion is heard. We still know it happened, so denying it won't help you. We know that Ganondorf won in the end, but that does not mean he was attacking or counterattacking at the same moment Midna was, as we see Midna's attack finish before Ganondorf does anything. If he did do something, it would have had to have been after Midna's attack.1) The timing matches given the teleport delay, and I've already shown you how. We know that Midna lost, but again that was after she finished her attack, since we saw the attack.
2) We know what Ganondorf was doing as she struck. Moments before, he was roaring at her, and even you have pointed out that he was growling as the attack commenced. After that point, the scene changed and the attack finished, showing the explosion.
3) The lightning is shown when the screen goes white, but unfortunately the scene changes before the explosion. Even from the barrier buster, the explosion occurred much later than the first light seen. We still know that Midna was the source, though, given that she was the only one attacking. If you have an alternate theory, please present it using only the evidence.
Is that your theory? If so, it does not sync up with the evidence given, which is Midna's attack, previously seen to be highly destructive, and the castle's destructiion matching the barrier's. Nothing else seen has shown that level of destruction, and the Fused Shadow have been taken from Midna before, and no explosion occurred.
My argument never changed. Midna knows she can touch Ganondorf thanks to earlier removing him from Zelda, so she knows she isn't attacking something she'd go right through. She's perfectly willing to do anything to kill Ganondorf, even shown when she made herself vulnerable while breaking the barrier. She's just doing that same thing again.
So your argument is that Midna made a huge weapon and stabbed into the barrier, thereby making an anti-magic field that turned off the barrier's power source, thus causing it to fall apart. Great job there, Occam. 👆
As opposed to just, "She hit it really hard and it broke." No, really, I like yours better, since it gives Midna a new power to just nullify magic. She could just hit a random MK sorcerer and nullify their all of their magical powers. Heck, that even proves that when she hit Ganondorf, she was nullifying his magic, so he actually tanked the hit without any powers backing him up at all!
/sarcasm, if you missed it. I would normally admire your ability to just make something up to try making feats sound less impressive, but that really just takes the cake. Midna can nullify magic, an ability never hinted at before and actually makes her better at fighting MK sorcerers, just because you don't want to admit that hitting a barrier really hard can break it.
"A lot of stone." vs. "A lot of rock." Same thing, you're trying to imply that Ganondorf can be hurt because maybe an MK character can break stone. You're taking something small, and trying to apply it to something much bigger, as if a trebuchet breaking a stone wall means it can level an entire stone castle. You're missing something because Raiden blew up a castle and killed himself doing it, while Midna did the same thing and, at worst, was knocked unconscious. They did it better because Raiden's feat did show as much power as Midna, the difference is that one of died doing it, and wasn't Midna. She wins purely because performing the same exact feat didn't kill her, when a darned Thunder God tried it and died. And Ganondorf tanked it, yes, meaning he can so do again.
Not quite. You're trying to imply that a Sage is less durable than a human based on absolutely nothing, whereas we know from previous games that Sages are always humans or at least humanoid creatures. At most, they're implied to be magical beings, having been alive for centuries and lack faces. I could point out that their composition highly resembles the chains and sword (moreso the sword) they used to imprison and execute Ganondorf. Don't ignore it, but these guys are stated to be the guardians of the Mirror of Twilight and the live at the Arbiter's Grounds, a prison and execution ground for the worst criminals around, though now it's crawling with undead and the souls of the damned. Oh, and it's implied these guys forged the Master Sword, too. Ganondorf terrified those guys, yes.
The fact is that there's little evidence in any direction, and their faces and hands don't really indicate anything; it's not like Rayman is a weakling. It's more than possible that the Sages are ethereal, but that just proves Ganondorf can hit intangible opponents and destroy them. If you look closely, you can see the Sage Of Water is decapitated when Ganondorf hits him.
We do not see any attack hit, we see an attack launched. There is no explosion heard or lightning evident therefore the castle being destroyed because of that "hit" as you call it is disproven. It does not mean he did not counter attack as midna attacked either....its your evidence and it shows us little.
1) we dont see what Ganon is even doing during the attack also youve not shown me anything, the teleport delay does not cover all the events.
2) Do we? how do we know that? we hear a growling, thats it....we dont hear explosion or lightning either yet you still think you can claim we have enough evidence to suggest her strike blew up the castle.
3) I dont see "lightning", sorry, also your still missing the rumble before the explosion. Why do i want to make up theories? again thats your job at the moment, I could make up suggestions to what happened but thats not the point of my argument, the point is that you do not have enough evidence to suggest what happened for a fact.
I have yet to accept that "breaking a magic barrier" is equel to physical destruction of the castle.
Can you show me Midna spearing Ganon while in the same form he is in that scene? assuming she knew she would be so weak after breaking it.
Nice job at trying to stretch arguments out, we can all do that and Occam does not solve any argument, its a theory which is as useful here as your theories which are not convincing me yet. All I am suggesting is that her magic power was greater than that of the dome, simple deduction is simple.
Your talking of a magical barrier as if its a physical defence the same way a piece of metal or body armour is. Your making a long list of assumptions about its makeup apprently. Also your ridiculous rant here is insulting, again your trying to mock despite claiming "respect" before. Not to mension the rant is illogical and what I have said does not mean any of the things here.
I think I would be right to think a MK can break stone, a lot of fictional characters can. Well I never said it could level the whole castle, but unlike magic force you cannot expand that one boulders impact across an area. He can in that form which other than this "supposed" feat seems helpless. I have heard Raiden has shaken the world before, may need confirmation.
Well theres the evidence they are not solid, because their limbs are not all attached, so breaking them does not mean the same thing as breaking a human, let alone disintegrating one. Your playing on words to make a feat sound better than it is. Fact is, Ganon destroyed a durability featless being with an unkown physiology (if it was clearly flesh and blood, we could at least deduce something).
Originally posted by Burning thought
How do you know she did? theres more than one reason to transport friends away.
It is just as likely that she planned to unleash that much power as it is anything else.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Pot calling kettle black, someone trying to desperatly piece together unfound claims is saying someone else has a problem with logic. You cannot gauge all magic by physical means, here are limitless applications and trying to deduce that said magic attack that affects immaterial beings apprently created some sort of "pressure" equivalent to what SP belives is unfounded.
Are you honestly trying to tell me that I cannot say a magical attack has the power to blow up a castle if I see it blow up a castle?
Originally posted by Burning thought
Perhaps but I dont know that theres only one castle.
Perhaps you should play a Zelda game. 😮
Originally posted by Burning thought
Thats a stretch of the imagination, just because they do not have flesh they are instantly immaterial? so machines, stone, trees are all immaterial since they do not have flesh? stop making a mess of this argument please and realise they have [b]no feats and their form is unkown. [/B]
Well, if they aren't made of flesh and aren't immaterial, what are they made of? It isn't any kind of rock, even you, I am certain, will agree to that. So what would you even think it is?
I know you like to think highly of yourself, but you don't need to think so little of me. Would you really think I'd argue such an idiotic idea as rocks being immaterial because they aren't made of flesh?
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
It is just as likely that she planned to unleash that much power as it is anything else.Are you honestly trying to tell me that I cannot say a magical attack has the power to blow up a castle if I see it blow up a castle?
Perhaps you should play a Zelda game. 😮
Well, if they aren't made of flesh and aren't immaterial, what are they made of? It isn't any kind of rock, even you, I am certain, will agree to that. So what would you even think it is?
I know you like to think highly of yourself, but you don't need to think so little of me. Would you really think I'd argue such an idiotic idea as rocks being immaterial because they aren't made of flesh?
So you dont know, theres no fact based in the argument? only its "likely"?
No, I am honestly trying to tell you that a magical attack does not have to create physical force (similiar to a bomb for example) required to knock down a castle or blow it up.
Play through a game just to see if my KMC opposition is lieing (which I belive to be the case often) is not economical.
Thats the point, I am not going to make wild guesses, all I know is that they do not look like anything in reality and are featless. Its like me trying to claim Kain can disintegrate people with a sword slash based purely on the fact the ghostly shades dissipate when defeated, its simply in their nature to do so.
No, I was proving the point that just because their not made of flesh does not mean their immaterial.
