Who is more evil, Voldemort or Darth Sidious ?

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

The way I see it. What determines what is evil is determined by the subjective understanding/metrics of morality determined by the society(s) at large. What is evil for some may well not be evil for others.

He may be seeking justice/revenge for what the Jedi did to the Sith in the past (as what Maul said) as well as end their (to the Sith) tyranny.

And as the Jedi seek the annihilation of the Sith, he may well be protecting his kind from total genocide. As well as purge the corruption of the galactic senate.

As like Anakin said, from another's point of view, the jedi are evil.

His methods might be vile (to us). But to the Sith, there may well be some nobility with what he is doing (as it seems like they function within the concept that the ends do justify the means)

That is my take anyway.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

The way I see it. What determines what is evil is determined by the subjective understanding/metrics of morality determined by the society(s) at large. What is evil for some may well not be evil for others.

He may be seeking justice/revenge for what the Jedi did to the Sith in the past (as what Maul said) as well as end their (to the Sith) tyranny.

And as the Jedi seek the annihilation of the Sith, he may well be protecting his kind from total genocide. As well as purge the corruption of the galactic senate.

As like Anakin said, from another's point of view, the jedi are evil.

His methods might be vile (to us). But to the Sith, there may well be some nobility with what he is doing (as it seems like they function within the concept that the ends do justify the means)

That is my take anyway.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, your definition is supported by my own. I am using Palpatine's own words with how he regards evil as a point of view. He doesn't view himself as evil. Let's hear these feats of him being evil. What has he done that can eclipse killing a mother and father to going after a baby ?

Let's go, nerd. I'll destroy you even according to your retarded logic.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
That wasn't about firing a player. It was about admonishing/punishing another officer for talking shit. If you think Vader would let someone, anyone, of less authority speak to him like that (while he is punishing another officer talking shit), in front of all the other officers, then he fails at his role of enforcer or Sith Lord.

No, that's not assuming command. At all. In fact, it further proves my assertion of Vader's capacity.

When an auditor or an efficiency consultant is sent to make sure that operations be put back on track, they do not assume command direct command. I know, I've actually hired ppl to do that. They may send reports directly to the CEO/Chairman or they tend to function within a consultative capacity with the supervisors/managers but they do not assume direct command. At best that is what Vader did. At worst, he was sent mainly for Tarkin to use as a tool for intimidation over the other officers.

Throughout the entire movie, Vader was never shown to have any authority over Tarkin. If you have an example where it is even implied that he -exerciized- some authority, go ahead and post it. But that is never demonstrated. Not once (unless you can provide evidence). It was Tarkin's orders that doomed Alderaan, his orders to double cross the Princess, his orders to "fire (the Death Star) when ready". Vader stood just stood there.

So your basis of Vader having higher authority is predicated on him being Palpy's apprentice. And that's it.

But let's be honest here, we both know you'd never change your stance regardless of the evidence proviced. And we are derailing the thread.

I see, more talking crap at the end, nice. Let me guess, when I return the favor in kind, you'll whine like a little girl again... AMIRITE? Or better yet, you'll put out random numbers out of your ass while employing double standards the whole time. Sound about right. You just couldn't resist, and now we are where we are kiddo.

Again, in the movies and in the books, Palps says numerous times that they will rule the galaxy together. In that model, Vader is unquestionably no. 2 in overall command of the Galaxy. That is above any governor of a particular sector of the galaxy. I thought this was painfully obvious, but clearly the obvious eludes you. Further, and this is also without question, Vader has the ear or was the ear of the most powerful person in the galaxy. So again, by proxy, that is a higher position and authority that Tarkin. To think otherwise is blatantly false. That IS the proof.

Further, I reject your notion that it is like bringing a consultant in.. that wasn't what occurred there. If the president (or sends the vice president) comes to a big city to deal with a crisis at hand, that doesn't mean he assumes full control of the day to day activities of the city. He doesn't start to draft and sign letter the governor used to do. No, the governor still does that, he's still responsible for the day to day running of the city. Make no mistake though, The President is of higher authority in that room. Further, the only proof you have of Tarkin being in command is a scene where he ask Vader to release him. What you fail to realize is, that isn't proof. Him simply listening to somebody doesn't mean they are in command. My player coach example shows this. If the President listens to the secretary of state about foreign affairs, does that mean he's above the president? Of course not, that would be ludicrous. All that scene showed was that Tarkin didn't want vader going around killing his officers, he needs them to get the jobs done. By no means can one say that if somebody listens to another, that other person is in charge. They could be, doesn't mean it always that way.

To further the point about who had Palps ear (who was the most powerful person in the galaxy) and thus has the most power after him. Nobody on the Death Star even knew the Emperor was coming. The simple reality is this, if Vader gave an order (which would be taken as an order from the emperor) Tarkin would carry out said order. That is the simple reality of what we are talking about here.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
That wasn't about firing a player. It was about admonishing/punishing another officer for talking shit. If you think Vader would let someone, anyone, of less authority speak to him like that (while he is punishing another officer talking shit), in front of all the other officers, then he fails at his role of enforcer or Sith Lord.

No, that's not assuming command. At all. In fact, it further proves my assertion of Vader's capacity.

When an auditor or an efficiency consultant is sent to make sure that operations be put back on track, they do not assume command direct command. I know, I've actually hired ppl to do that. They may send reports directly to the CEO/Chairman or they tend to function within a consultative capacity with the supervisors/managers but they do not assume direct command. At best that is what Vader did. At worst, he was sent mainly for Tarkin to use as a tool for intimidation over the other officers.

Throughout the entire movie, Vader was never shown to have any authority over Tarkin. If you have an example where it is even implied that he -exerciized- some authority, go ahead and post it. But that is never demonstrated. Not once (unless you can provide evidence). It was Tarkin's orders that doomed Alderaan, his orders to double cross the Princess, his orders to "fire (the Death Star) when ready". Vader stood just stood there.

So your basis of Vader having higher authority is predicated on him being Palpy's apprentice. And that's it.

But let's be honest here, we both know you'd never change your stance regardless of the evidence proviced. And we are derailing the thread.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He was a baby who didn't attack Sir Tom. Tom will snuff out a fetus if he deems it necessary. The Jedi struck first he struck back. Did the baby throw a rattle at him or a binky ? Nah, this proves I am correct whereas you're lost as ever.

Palpatine didn't kill kids either or attempt to. Coward.

Another moronic post from the moron. It had NOTHING to do with them attacking him first you dimwit. They are in a constant feud lastly thousands of years. Of course they attacked him, just as the sith have tried to eliminate the Jedi. This is nothing you. You act like he was cool with the Jedi, and then they betrayed him, and thus he ordered the killing. Totally false, he plan the ENTIRE time was to kill the Jedi. That is why you should never talk about things you don't know. The clone army was created under the orders of Palps so that he could use them to kill the Jedi and rule the galaxy. This was before they went to arrest him. That was always his plan.

In stark contrast, Harry was destined to destroy Volde, so of course you'd go after him.. as a baby or a young adult. That is painfully obvious. The those little Jedi's were destined or prophesized to kill the emperor. Yet he still order them all massacred. You lose, I accept your concession in full.

Ordering the massacre of young jedi is vastly worse than trying to kill a baby (and FAILING) who was prophesized to kill you. What's worse he didn't even commit the act. He failed, which automatically reduces the dramatic effect here. You're bad at this.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Nib and myself once again conquer the retarded such as Kt. Run Kt because my reasoning is sound unlike your gibberish.

Bwahaha he didn't even agree with you Quanshoes LOL

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I see, more talking crap at the end, nice. Let me guess, when I return the favor in kind, you'll whine like a little girl again... AMIRITE? Or better yet, you'll put out random numbers out of your ass while employing double standards the whole time. Sound about right. You just couldn't resist, and now we are where we are kiddo.

Again, in the movies and in the books, Palps says numerous times that they will rule the galaxy together. In that model, Vader is unquestionably no. 2 in overall command of the Galaxy. That is above any governor of a particular sector of the galaxy. I thought this was painfully obvious, but clearly the obvious eludes you. Further, and this is also without question, Vader has the ear or was the ear of the most powerful person in the galaxy. So again, by proxy, that is a higher position and authority that Tarkin. To think otherwise is blatantly false. That IS the proof.

Further, I reject your notion that it is like bringing a consultant in.. that wasn't what occurred there. If the president (or sends the vice president) comes to a big city to deal with a crisis at hand, that doesn't mean he assumes full control of the day to day activities of the city. He doesn't start to draft and sign letter the governor used to do. No, the governor still does that, he's still responsible for the day to day running of the city. Make no mistake though, The President is of higher authority in that room. Further, the only proof you have of Tarkin being in command is a scene where he ask Vader to release him. What you fail to realize is, that isn't proof. Him simply listening to somebody doesn't mean they are in command. My player coach example shows this. If the President listens to the secretary of state about foreign affairs, does that mean he's above the president? Of course not, that would be ludicrous. All that scene showed was that Tarkin didn't want vader going around killing his officers, he needs them to get the jobs done. By no means can one say that if somebody listens to another, thant other person is in charge. They could be, doesn't mean it always that way.

To further the point about who had Palps ear (who was the most powerful person in the galaxy) and thus has the most power after him. Nobody on the Death Star even knew the Emperor was coming. The simple reality is this, if Vader gave an order (which would be taken as an order from the emperor) Tarkin would carry out said order. That is the simple reality of what we are talking about here.

Dude. When I say "you'll never change your stance...", I am not trying to insult you. It is a reality check for both of us. We have argued for pages and pages, and at the end of the day, it never mattered what evidence I bring forward or what argument I give, you'll always not accept it. I mean, am I wrong in this assumption? Have you ever accepted any opposing debator's logic? If so, pls link so I can understand what it would take so I can be sure to go that direction for future debates. Anyway, at this point, we are derailing the thread so we should move forward from this.

I can undertand that this may sound insulting (and I apologize if it does), but I personally don't know any other way of stating it (if you have a better way of saying it, let me know and I'll be sure to use that method in the future). Again, I apologize if that can be seen as offensive. Reality checks often are.

Anyway, this will be the last thing I will say about this:

I have experience running an organization, large organizations do not usually follow a simplistic top-to-bottom heirarchy, there are positions outside the pyramid and there are departments that do not share authority/control amongst its officers and staff. In those organizations there are positions that do not have any direct control of any departments but reports directly to top management (auditors are an example of this). IMO, Vader's displayed capacity fits into this criteria.

Just because he is Palp's apprentice, however, doesn't make him the best person for the job of command and running the Death Star or the fleet. Tarkin's job and position could very well be based on his qualifications.

And Presidental Advisors have the ear of the most powerful man in a country but they do not suddenly have direct authority over the military. Having "someone's ear" does not translate to direct authority. Just influence.

There are those who opt to take a more permissive leadership style who would allow for decisions such as punishment and dismissal to be questioned. Such as your coach example. But I was not under the impression that Vader practiced that kind of leadership style.

And if you think that someone who practices a tyranical style of leadership (who has the power to just choke you for talking crap) would allow someone (a skinmy old man at that) of lower rank to undermine his authority WHILE he is punishing a publicly disrespectful, insulting subordinate in front of the other officers within a military organization, then there is really nothing left to discuss. As anybody who has ever been put in any position of authority, that is one of the biggest bitchslaps you can possibly give to someone of authority.

So either Vader recognizes Tarkin's authority over him on the Death Star or he is the biggest b!tch/cuckold Sith Lord in the Star Wars universe. You decide. It's can only be one or the other. And if it's the latter, then "authority" is irrelevant.

I mean, you are arguing leadership/management style/logic with someone who graduated top honors in Management (and Marketing) and has almost 15 years (plus a few more consultative) within a corporate environment in an executive position. If there was ever anything I feel confident in discussing in these forums, it is management/leadership styles (and marketing, but eh).

Bottom line, and back to our original discussion: on-screen: it was Tarkin who gave the order for the destruction of Alderaan. It was Tarkin who Leiea recognized as the one double crossing her.

Burder of proof is on you to prove that he was acting under direct orders from Vader as we saw Vader giving NO orders for him to do any of the above. Unless you are able to give any evidence to contradict the above paragraph's FACTS, then the details in the above paragraph are pretty much indisputable.

Now go on ahead and get the last word if you want. But I'll not derail this thread any longer. I'll let the rest of the forum decide on whose logic is best at this point.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Another moronic post from the moron. It had NOTHING to do with them attacking him first you dimwit. They are in a constant feud lastly thousands of years. Of course they attacked him, just as the sith have tried to eliminate the Jedi. This is nothing you. You act like he was cool with the Jedi, and then they betrayed him, and thus he ordered the killing. Totally false, he plan the ENTIRE time was to kill the Jedi. That is why you should never talk about things you don't know. The clone army was created under the orders of Palps so that he could use them to kill the Jedi and rule the galaxy. This was before they went to arrest him. That was always his plan.

In stark contrast, Harry was destined to destroy Volde, so of course you'd go after him.. as a baby or a young adult. That is painfully obvious. The those little Jedi's were destined or prophesized to kill the emperor. Yet he still order them all massacred. You lose, I accept your concession in full.

Ordering the massacre of young jedi is vastly worse than trying to kill a baby (and FAILING) who was prophesized to kill you. What's worse he didn't even commit the act. He failed, which automatically reduces the dramatic effect here. You're bad at this.

Again that isn't the point most wouldn't steamroll through someone prophesied in that manner in which he did. Anakin was prophesied to bring balance to the force yet Sidious chose to make him his apprentice. What an ironically stupid move from a guy not evil even according to his own pov. Trying to kill a baby is evil. Palpatine didn't try to kill Anakin he tried to guide him which in the end was both stupid and cost him his life.

You yourself said the Jedi and Sith kill each other so this isn't anything new. What babies did Anakin kill at the temple ? Sidious didn't even try to kill the one guy who ended up bringing balance to the force. He wouldn't try to kill Harry Palpatine would probably try to Esau cairn it. Raise another's child as his own.

😂

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Bwahaha he didn't even agree with you Quanshoes LOL

Originally posted by quanchi112
So Sidious trying to kill a known enemy of his is not evil it's to be expected. You just eradicated your own point. You're too stupid to realize it. Sidious opposing the other faction isn't evil it's the same as it has always been.

Again that isn't the point most wouldn't steamroll through someone prophesied in that manner in which he did. Anakin was prophesied to bring balance to the force yet Sidious chose to make him his apprentice. What an ironically stupid move from a guy not evil even according to his own pov. Trying to kill a baby is evil. Palpatine didn't try to kill Anakin he tried to guide him which in the end was both stupid and cost him his life.

You yourself said the Jedi and Sith kill each other so this isn't anything new. What babies did Anakin kill at the temple ? Sidious didn't even try to kill the one guy who ended up bringing balance to the force. He wouldn't try to kill Harry Palpatine would probably try to Esau cairn it. Raise another's child as his own.

😂

What sort of rambling nonsense is this? You literally didn't make a single point here. Not one you dimwit. You can never be considered the most evil, when you try and kill somebody and fail. There is no dramatic affect there Quanshoes. He failed, like he did everything else.

Him ordering Vader to kill younglings and massacre them is VASTLY worse, than failing to kill a baby destined to kill you. Those younglings weren't prophesized to kill Sids, or anything of the like. Harry was, so of course Volde would go after him. That is common sense. That doesn't make him evil, it just made him a failure.

Either come up with something worse or I accept your concession .

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Dude. When I say "you'll never change your stance...", I am not trying to insult you. It is a reality check for both of us. We have argued for pages and pages, and at the end of the day, it never mattered what evidence I bring forward or what argument I give, you'll always not accept it. I mean, am I wrong in this assumption? Have you ever accepted any opposing debator's logic? If so, pls link so I can understand what it would take so I can be sure to go that direction for future debates. Anyway, at this point, we are derailing the thread so we should move forward from this.

I can undertand that this may sound insulting (and I apologize if it does), but I personally don't know any other way of stating it (if you have a better way of saying it, let me know and I'll be sure to use that method in the future). Again, I apologize if that can be seen as offensive. Reality checks often are.

Anyway, this will be the last thing I will say about this:

I have experience running an organization, large organizations do not usually follow a simplistic top-to-bottom heirarchy, there are positions outside the pyramid and there are departments that do not share authority/control amongst its officers and staff. In those organizations there are positions that do not have any direct control of any departments but reports directly to top management (auditors are an example of this). IMO, Vader's displayed capacity fits into this criteria.

Just because he is Palp's apprentice, however, doesn't make him the best person for the job of command and running the Death Star or the fleet. Tarkin's job and position could very well be based on his qualifications.

And Presidental Advisors have the ear of the most powerful man in a country but they do not suddenly have direct authority over the military. Having "someone's ear" does not translate to direct authority. Just influence.

There are those who opt to take a more permissive leadership style who would allow for decisions such as punishment and dismissal to be questioned. Such as your coach example. But I was not under the impression that Vader practiced that kind of leadership style.

And if you think that someone who practices a tyranical style of leadership (who has the power to just choke you for talking crap) would allow someone (a skinmy old man at that) of lower rank to undermine his authority WHILE he is punishing a publicly disrespectful, insulting subordinate in front of the other officers within a military organization, then there is really nothing left to discuss. As anybody who has ever been put in any position of authority, that is one of the biggest bitchslaps you can possibly give to someone of authority.

So either Vader recognizes Tarkin's authority over him on the Death Star or he is the biggest b!tch/cuckold Sith Lord in the Star Wars universe. You decide. It's can only be one or the other. And if it's the latter, then "authority" is irrelevant.

I mean, you are arguing leadership/management style/logic with someone who graduated top honors in Management (and Marketing) and has almost 15 years (plus a few more consultative) within a corporate environment in an executive position. If there was ever anything I feel confident in discussing in these forums, it is management/leadership styles (and marketing, but eh).

Bottom line, and back to our original discussion: on-screen: it was Tarkin who gave the order for the destruction of Alderaan. It was Tarkin who Leiea recognized as the one double crossing her.

Burder of proof is on you to prove that he was acting under direct orders from Vader as we saw Vader giving NO orders for him to do any of the above. Unless you are able to give any evidence to contradict the above paragraph's FACTS, then the details in the above paragraph are pretty much indisputable.

Now go on ahead and get the last word if you want. But I'll not derail this thread any longer. I'll let the rest of the forum decide on whose logic is best at this point.

First, stop trying to sugarcoat what you said and act like it wasn't the least bit insulting. It was, and you know it. It certainly wasn't a compliment by any means. Which is my point, you'll sit her and complain about me insulting you, and then turn around and insult me; but somehow yours was okay because you didn't think it was bad? Okay. Using that criteria, I'll just go ahead and say nothing I said was bad. I don't think you'd agree, yet somehow I'm suppose to accept that as a compliment?

Second, on numerous occasions, even with you, I've conceded points. So to hear you say that I've never admitted something or conceded something is a bold face lie. I'm not going to participate in trying to prove a negative here. It's happened, and many times. Obviously it hasn't happened many times as well, that is the whole point of debating, but it certainly has occurred.

Third, no, you haven't brought forth any proof and the examples I gave are not false. You say you've been deeply involved in various aspects of management and consulting. If true, then you would know each and every example I gave were sound and logical. Not only sound and logical, but factual, those things can and do occur. I'm not saying it proves anything, because it doesn't, but they are certainly possible explanation of what could be going on there besides Vader being below him. Or are you taking the stance of none of the examples I gave are possible?

Fourth, and you have yet to get around this fact, in canon sids has stated, numerous times, that they will rule the galaxy together This is a canon fact. Vastly more canon than ANY example you've put forth that Tarkin was in charge of Vader. Every example you've given can be viewed another way as well. What can't be viewed another way is that Vader was second only to Palps when it came to ruling a Galaxy. Last time I checked, a planet or death star is within a galaxy, and thus under that same overall control. Now, either bring forth evidence that Palps was lying when he made those statements or you'll need to accept them as facts. Once that occurs, there is no way a governor is above the second in command of the Galaxy. NO way no how in no organization chart can that exist.

You seem to be conflating two separate ideas that have nothing to do with one another. Just because Vader listened to Tarkin, doesn't mean Tarkin was in charge. I've cited numerous examples of how this is blatantly false. Obviously it can mean that, but not in all situations, and that certainly can't be categorized as fallible proof. Vader is no idiot, he knows Sids placed Tarkin there for a reason. He's a trusted commander of a particular sector. Vader can't just go around killing people whenever he pleases. He still has to respect that Tarkin was placed in that position, and had been doing a good job throughout the clone wars and even 18 years later till the death star. He had been acting in various roles for the Emperor. He was trusted. Vader isn't going to run the day to day operations of things, Tarkin does, so if Tarkin says no I need that guy, stop killing my officer, that doesn't mean he was in charge. It means Vader showed restraint and said okay.

There are NUMEROUS examples of Vader speaking directly with Sids and taking orders from him to execute certain things. Even when it came to the death star. I never saw, not one conversation between Tarkin and the Emperor like we see with Vader. Which again, illustrates the above, vader was second in command in ruling the galaxy. That doesn't mean he acts as governor of this planet or that planet. Of course there need to people in place to handle their affairs throughout the galaxy. Nobody says otherwise. That doesn't mean those people are above vader in overall power or command.

All that said, I understand your argument, and I don't think it's totally lacking in merit. I understand your point, but those same situations you say mean A... then could also mean B just the same. Which is my point here.

Again, I disagree with your logic, reasoning and your conclusion. Admittedly, there are some points you made that I can agree with. But at the same time, there are just too many errors in logic and I feel like that this will go on for pages and pages of useless derailing discussion. I already said that I will no longer derail this thread as we'll likely kill it and I am interested in hearing what ppl have to say.

This seems like a solid topic we can BZ, in all honesty, I would actually put my odds here at 70-30. Unlike a BZ with h1, this might actually be fun rather than annoying. What do you say?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What sort of rambling nonsense is this? You literally didn't make a single point here. Not one you dimwit. You can never be considered the most evil, when you try and kill somebody and fail. There is no dramatic affect there Quanshoes. He failed, like he did everything else.

Him ordering Vader to kill younglings and massacre them is VASTLY worse, than failing to kill a baby destined to kill you. Those younglings weren't prophesized to kill Sids, or anything of the like. Harry was, so of course Volde would go after him. That is common sense. That doesn't make him evil, it just made him a failure.

Either come up with something worse or I accept your concession .

No, since they were the enemy who already came after him and were opposed to the Sith as you said. Also Palpatine didn't do so Vader carried out the deed. You earlier tried lying about Tarkin's actions somehow transferring to Palpatine as well. What has Palpatine done specifically ?

Palaptine didn't kill the guy prophesied to bring balance to the force. Palpatine died to the guy prophesied as well but what's worse he didn't even attempt to kill Vader.

You're too stupid to actually refute or understand a point. I can't wait to hear you back down to Nib's battlezone offer you piece of long faced shit.

What exactly would we be BZing? lol. I mean, I certainly wouldn't view this as a solid topic to debate, when I'm not even sure what we'd be BZing. Who was in command there? That seems like a very subjective argument to have as we've seen. Not only is there is a significant lack of proof either way, what we do have, can be interrupted many ways. I'm just not seeing this as the solid topic you seem to. That said, we've also been talking in the WS vs. Ozy thread throughout many months. I've you like to do a BZ on that topic, we can certainly get there. I'm just not seeing it here. That said, if you have time, I would like to see you tell me where my logical errors occurred. You said you don't want to derail this thread anymore, and I can respect that, so if you have time just give me a quick synopsis of "too many" logical errors.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What exactly would we be BZing? lol. I mean, I certainly wouldn't view this as a solid topic to debate, when I'm not even sure what we'd be BZing. Who was in command there? That seems like a very subjective argument to have as we've seen. Not only is there is a significant lack of proof either way, what we do have, can be interrupted many ways. I'm just not seeing this as the solid topic you seem to. That said, we've also been talking in the WS vs. Ozy thread throughout many months. I've you like to do a BZ on that topic, we can certainly get there. I'm just not seeing it here. That said, if you have time, I would like to see you tell me where my logical errors occurred. You said you don't want to derail this thread anymore, and I can respect that, so if you have time just give me a quick synopsis of "too many" logical errors.

The BZ would be if Vader had any direct authority over Tarkin as of SW Ep. 4. Seems simple enough.

BZ is not about absolute proof. As no such absolute proof exists. It's about who can prove their case better by presenting better arguments/proof. It's not for anything than fun in this case. As I know my position isn't 100% solid either (although I do believe that the evidence far more supports it).

Fair enough. Gonna turn in, but I can just PM tommorrow if that would be better.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What exactly would we be BZing? lol. I mean, I certainly wouldn't view this as a solid topic to debate, when I'm not even sure what we'd be BZing. Who was in command there? That seems like a very subjective argument to have as we've seen. Not only is there is a significant lack of proof either way, what we do have, can be interrupted many ways. I'm just not seeing this as the solid topic you seem to. That said, we've also been talking in the WS vs. Ozy thread throughout many months. I've you like to do a BZ on that topic, we can certainly get there. I'm just not seeing it here. That said, if you have time, I would like to see you tell me where my logical errors occurred. You said you don't want to derail this thread anymore, and I can respect that, so if you have time just give me a quick synopsis of "too many" logical errors.

Originally posted by quanchi112
They attacked him and made themselves a threat. The same can't be said of Harry since he didn't attack Voldemort first. That's the point. Sidious knew the Jedi would oppose him but he didn't strike until they came after him. Voldemort will murder an infant. So much more evil than the reactionary known as Sheevey.

Okay man but you seem to think that it's somehow less shady because Sidious was able to foresee that if he was corrupt and evil and tried to take over the galaxy..that the jedi would try to stop him?

Of course he knew the jedi would oppose him..he's literally a sith lord. It's not hard to know they would perhaps have an issue with him being evil and stuff.

You are acting like it was the jedi that created this entire situation and Sidious was just reacting to it. The jedi certainly behaved very very stupidly, almost to a point that defies comprehension, but they didn't actually create the situation.

Originally posted by Surtur
Okay man but you seem to think that it's somehow less shady because Sidious was able to foresee that if he was corrupt and evil and tried to take over the galaxy..that the jedi would try to stop him?

Of course he knew the jedi would oppose him..he's literally a sith lord. It's not hard to know they would perhaps have an issue with him being evil and stuff.

You are acting like it was the jedi that created this entire situation and Sidious was just reacting to it. The jedi certainly behaved very very stupidly, almost to a point that defies comprehension, but they didn't actually create the situation.

It's a pov. That's how he sees himself. The Jedi aren't perfect beings and both had their own reasoning as to why they did what they did.

The Jedi tried to kill him. He defended himself and counter attacked. That isn't evil at all. Voldemort going after a baby after slaughtering his parents is evil. Nothing Sidious has done on screen remotely compares to this. Voldemort is a lot more evil than Palpatine and by feats it just isn't close. Blame Kt for making it about the feats.

While I know this is off topic, allow me to cast a little light on the relationship in the Star Wars Universe (including other material) between Tarkin and Vader.

From the Star Wars Poster Monthly (november 2007):

"Obviously Tarkin believes that he has Vader under control and for a while Vader is happy to let him live with that illusion. However, the Dark Lord has greater plans than defeat of the Rebels and suffers Tarkin as yet another pawn in a much larger gameplan."

From The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader - the Motti choking scene:

Although Vader answered only to the Emperor, it was the Emperor's command that he serve Tarkin on the Death Star.

From the Death Star novel: A scene just before the movie starts - in which Tarkin is musing:

Vader, unfortunately, was beyond Tarkin's command, even though, as the first of the new Grand Moffs, he was a man whose whim was law law in the entire Outer Rim Territories. It was true that Vader's own manner of function was essentially the same philosophy as the Tarkin Doctrine, albeit on a smaller scale; still, it was ... disquieting ... to see the man cause an admiral or general across the room to fall over with a mere gesture as if shot.

Vader's musing before arriving

There had been, however, setbacks - accidents, sabotage, delays - and these were troubling to the Emperor. And so Palpatine had sent Vader to once again convey his displeasure at these setbacks to Tarkin's pet project, and to suggest - strongly - that the Grand Moff find ways to avoid them in the future.
Tarkin was no fool. He would understand the message: Fail, and suffer the consequences.

From Death Star Owner's Workshop Manual, General Tagges Personal Data Journal entry 49:

Two significant portions of the Death Star complement will not fall under the normal command structure, but are worth noting. The first is the Emperor's emissary, Darth Vader, who will answer to Grand Moff Tarkin, and will not be subject to any other authority aboard the Death Star. Second, the Imperial stormtroopers. Both the Army and Navy may call on the services of the stormtroopers, but with the firm understanding that these soldiers fall under the jurisdiction of neither, and that their loyalty is to the Emperor alone.

But in the end, who the hell knows what George Lucas was thinking when he made ANH.

Thanks Utriga.

👆

That is mostly consistent with my understanding of the relationship between Vader and Tarkin as well.

So, based on that, Vader officially under Tarkin's command (as per the Emperor's will) but at the same time, he served a higher secondary purpose in making sure the emperor's will is carried out. It also looks like Tarkin understood that he only had a fragile hold on Vader.