Who is more evil, Voldemort or Darth Sidious ?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

The way I see it. What determines what is evil is determined by the subjective understanding/metrics of morality determined by the society(s) at large. What is evil for some may well not be evil for others.

He may be seeking justice/revenge for what the Jedi did to the Sith in the past (as what Maul said) as well as end their (to the Sith) tyranny.

And as the Jedi seek the annihilation of the Sith, he may well be protecting his kind from total genocide. As well as purge the corruption of the galactic senate.

As like Anakin said, from another's point of view, the jedi are evil.

His methods might be vile (to us). But to the Sith, there may well be some nobility with what he is doing (as it seems like they function within the concept that the ends do justify the means)

That is my take anyway.

Ah but those can be the most dangerous and most evil villains. The ones who've convinced themselves that they're in the right, and that the ends justify the means. Because they have that level of conviction to their evil.

Take ISIS for example who fit that model perfectly, and are considered by many to be the most evil force in our world today.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Ah but those can be the most dangerous and most evil villains. The ones who've convinced themselves that they're in the right, and that the ends justify the means. Because they have that level of conviction to their evil.

Take ISIS for example who fit that model perfectly, and are considered by many to be the most evil force in our world today.

As for the Tarkin vs Vader hierarchy battle I'd go with this:

Originally posted by Beniboybling
On the Death Star, Tarkin, but Vader was beyond the Imperial hierarchy.

Quoted from here:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16019292#post16019292

So what we saw in the film is Tarkin told that ***** Vader to do he did. Poor Vader.

I feel like Vader just allowed Tarkin to kind of boss him around. He knew it'd be funnier that way once he invisibly squeezes the life out of him.

It's part of the reason he hates the rebels, they killed Tarkin and took that chance away from him.

Just imagine that smug face gasping for air, holding his neck to try to stop it but ha! There are no actual fingers to pry off your throat, just psychic powers.

I personally don't think Vader had any issue with Tarkin. Just as long as he understood that if Palpatine dies it's Vader whose taking over.

When you think about it the SWU owes a huge debt of gratitude to Padme's vagina. Just imagine if Sidious had gotten a hold of a non-pussy whipped Anakin?

Is Sidious enslaving planets and feeding off their pain canon? If not then I'd have to say Vold is more evil

Originally posted by juggerman
Is Sidious enslaving planets and feeding off their pain canon? If not then I'd have to say Vold is more evil

Just feels like you're judging Sidious for trying to bring stability to countless worlds.

If people are feeling pain and you can feed off pain well..why not? Why waste resources?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Accept his challenge and show you're confident in your position you will argue your case before judges. I guarantee you'll tuck tail and run as per your entire life just like Robtard. You have no balls and won't accept because you're somewhat aware you're not smart. At all. Man up.

Quanshoes, pipe down and let the big boys talk here. We don't need advice from backdown(112 times), nor somebody that has never won a BZ he's participated in lol. That isn't a solid subject to BZ at all, not even close. I stated what a better one would be backdown112. I love the cheerleading though LOL

Originally posted by quanchi112
The Jedi naturally oppose the Sith so they have always killed each other. That isn't evil that's defending yourself against a century or possible millennia long war.

It's a pov. That's how he sees himself. The Jedi aren't perfect beings and both had their own reasoning as to why they did what they did.

The Jedi tried to kill him. He defended himself and counter attacked. That isn't evil at all. Voldemort going after a baby after slaughtering his parents is evil. Nothing Sidious has done on screen remotely compares to this. Voldemort is a lot more evil than Palpatine and by feats it just isn't close. Blame Kt for making it about the feats.

But it is evil because the very reason the jedi tried to kill him was because..he is evil. They tried to arrest him and the first thing Sidious did was try to kill them.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
As for the Tarkin vs Vader hierarchy battle I'd go with this:

Quoted from here:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16019292#post16019292

Which has been my point. Vader is above Tarkin in the overall scheme of things. If Vader came with orders, those orders would be followed imo. The simple reality to me is, Tarkin wasn't his commander there, nor does he need to take orders from him.

Even if his position was ahead of Vader's would he have the balls to refuse to do something Vader told him to do? He *is* a mentally unstable super powered cyborg.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Which has been my point. Vader is above Tarkin in the overall scheme of things. If Vader came with orders, those orders would be followed imo. The simple reality to me is, Tarkin wasn't his commander there, nor does he need to take orders from him.

Dude, hate to bring stuff back. But this WAS the original post that sparked our debate:

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Agreed, but he was under order from Vader, who by proxy Is under orders from Sids.

With regard to who gave the orders to destroy Alderaan.

In which case is, according to the quotes ppl have provided, incorrect. As Tarkin, was at no time, being ordered by Vader to do anything at any time.

I think at this point, we canat least both agree that the above quoted post is wrong?

Originally posted by Surtur
Even if his position was ahead of Vader's would he have the balls to refuse to do something Vader told him to do? He *is* a mentally unstable super powered cyborg.

It looks like Tarkin had quite a bit of balls. You gotta give mad props to the skinny old man.

As anyone who understood chain of command/leadership styles would know: being undermined (in front of of all the other officers as well) while you are publicly punishing an insulting and disrespectful subordinate is one of the biggest authority FU you can possibly get (even when it came from a superior officer).

I know I would be pissed if I was publicly and personally reprimanding one of the staff (something I very very rarely do as it is horrible to the employee being chewed out, and is a big no-no in HR management 101, but it has been necessary once or twice when disrespect is shown publicly) and my boss came in and told me to "stop it". Undermines whatever respect I get from any other subordinate who sees it.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
It looks like Tarkin had quite a bit of balls. You gotta give mad props to the skinny olf man.

As anyone who understood chain of command/leadership styles would know: being undermined (in front of of all the other officers as well) while you are publicly punishing an insulting and disrespectful subordinate is one of the biggest authority FU you can possibly get (even when it came from a superior officer).

Well that's what they were showing the officers of the Death Star, sure. But the sub-text might have been something akin to:

Tarkin: Urm Vader I kind of like and need that guy. Please don't kill him.

Vader: Alrite dude, but he better not undermine me again.

There's a Canon novel (called Tarkin) where Palpatine sends Vader and Tarkin on a mission and tells Vader "decide between yourselves who takes charge." Which I think best describes their relationship. Vader's like "The Death Star is yours. I like you, and respect your military command, but just remember I'm second to the Emperor in the big scheme of things."

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well that's what they were showing the officers of the Death Star, sure. But the sub-text might have been something akin to:

Tarkin: Urm Vader I kind of like and need that guy. Please don't kill him.

Vader: Alrite dude, but he better not undermine me again.

There's a Canon novel (called Tarkin) where Palpatine sends Vader and Tarkin on a mission and tells Vader "decide between yourselves who takes charge." Which I think best describes their relationship. Vader's like Death Star is yours. I like you, but just remember I'm second to the Emperor in the big scheme of things.

Like I said, the method and nature of how Tarkin shut Vader down on screen speaks volumes.

I mean that is among one of the indicators of Vader's apparent respect for Tarkin's authority.

I dunno if it is visible to you guys. But to an Asian who has been in management quite a long time. We can spot nuances of behavior relative to one's respect over another's authority.

They are very clear.

In this scene for example:

https://youtu.be/Zzs-OvfG8tE

Vader kept several steps in pace behind Tarkin and stood closely beside him as he took his seat (in Japan, tradtionally, wives do this as a sign of subservience to their husbands).

I mean the very fact that one guy had the gall to diss Vader in front of everyone should already be very telling. Had Vader been the highest ranked officer in the room, no way that guy would have done that.

And Tarkin didn't ASK (unlike your interpretation above) Vader to release the guy. He TOLD him to. Big difference. HUGE difference.

Vader: "as you wish" <---- that is very telling isn't it?

I would say IMO, the relationship was of grudging respect and recognizing that it is the emperor's will that he at least listens to him (for now). Knowing full well, of course, that he can (at anytime) fold the man in half and take over if he wants (but doing so would not be in his or his agenda's best interests).

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Dude, hate to bring stuff back. But this WAS the original post that sparked our debate:

With regard to who gave the orders to destroy Alderaan.

In which case is, according to the quotes ppl have provided, incorrect. As Tarkin, was at no time, being ordered by Vader to do anything at any time.

I think at this point, we canat least both agree that the above quoted post is wrong?

What I would say is this, you're correct in that we see no order given to Vader by Sids. You're further correct in that we don't specifically see any order given from Vader to Tarkin. I've never argued that I saw any order given. My argument is, and has been, that it just might not have been shown on screen. Let's say it never happened, I could accept that, but I would still argue who was above the other in overall command. Which it seems we've been discussing more recently. So while I do agree nothing was shown, knowing the Emperor and how hands on he is, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Originally posted by Surtur
I feel like Vader just allowed Tarkin to kind of boss him around. He knew it'd be funnier that way once he invisibly squeezes the life out of him.

It's part of the reason he hates the rebels, they killed Tarkin and took that chance away from him.

Just imagine that smug face gasping for air, holding his neck to try to stop it but ha! There are no actual fingers to pry off your throat, just psychic powers.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Quanshoes, pipe down and let the big boys talk here. We don't need advice from backdown(112 times), nor somebody that has never won a BZ he's participated in lol. That isn't a solid subject to BZ at all, not even close. I stated what a better one would be backdown112. I love the cheerleading though LOL

I'm free so man up, *****.