Originally posted by SurturPov and Anakin later said from his pov the Jedi were evil. Povs aren't facts they are perspectives, dope. Sidious wasn't evil incarnate and he only tried killing his sworn enemies after they attacked and scarred him. He already blabbed to Anakin about his Sith power.
But it is evil because the very reason the jedi tried to kill him was because..he is evil. They tried to arrest him and the first thing Sidious did was try to kill them.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Like I said, the method and nature of how Tarkin shut Vader down on screen speaks volumes.I mean that is among one of the indicators of Vader's apparent respect for Tarkin's authority.
I dunno if it is visible to you guys. But to an Asian who has been in management quite a long time. We can spot nuances of behavior relative to one's respect over another's authority.
They are very clear.
In this scene for example:
Vader kept several steps in pace behind Tarkin and stood closely beside him as he took his seat (in Japan, tradtionally, wives do this as a sign of subservience to their husbands).
I mean the very fact that one guy had the gall to diss Vader in front of everyone should already be very telling. Had Vader been the highest ranked officer in the room, no way that guy would have done that.
And Tarkin didn't ASK (unlike your interpretation above) Vader to release the guy. He TOLD him to. Big difference. HUGE difference.
Vader: "as you wish" <---- that is very telling isn't it?
I would say IMO, the relationship was of grudging respect and recognizing that it is the emperor's will that he at least listens to him (for now). Knowing full well, of course, that he can (at anytime) fold the man in half and take over if he wants (but doing so would not be in his or his agenda's best interests).
👆
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What I would say is this, you're correct in that we see no order given to Vader by Sids. You're further correct in that we don't specifically see any order given from Vader to Tarkin. I've never argued that I saw any order given. My argument is, and has been, that it just might not have been shown on screen. Let's say it never happened, I could accept that, but I would still argue who was above the other in overall command. Which it seems we've been discussing more recently. So while I do agree nothing was shown, knowing the Emperor and how hands on he is, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Fair enough. I think we can now proceed on topic and agree to this at least.
👆
Originally posted by Nibedicus
It looks like Tarkin had quite a bit of balls. You gotta give mad props to the skinny old man.As anyone who understood chain of command/leadership styles would know: being undermined (in front of of all the other officers as well) while you are publicly punishing an insulting and disrespectful subordinate is one of the biggest authority FU you can possibly get (even when it came from a superior officer).
I know I would be pissed if I was publicly and personally reprimanding one of the staff (something I very very rarely do as it is horrible to the employee being chewed out, and is a big no-no in HR management 101, but it has been necessary once or twice when disrespect is shown publicly) and my boss came in and told me to "stop it". Undermines whatever respect I get from any other subordinate who sees it.
I'm surprised to see you say this though Nib, and that is exactly what should happen from your boss. You're conflating two separate things as one, when in fact, they are two separate things.
For example, as you admit, that isn't something you should generally be doing in any management role. As a manger myself, that is something that I've rarely ever done. However, if I did, it wouldn't be wrong or undermining if my Director told me "Okay, let's have this discussion in private" or "I think he/she got the point" . That is EXACTLY what a Director should do in that situation to try an diffuse it, and prevent any HR legality from arising. So I strongly disagree with any notion, that this would be a bad thing or undermining of anything.
Also, as you should know, a direct verbal confrontation with a subordinate, with other subordinates around; means that you're likely already viewed in a negative light thanks to that display. Sure they may be like, many I hope that never happens to me. Sure, but they would also think I was a dick with bad management practices. That vastly further undermines my authority and respect in their eyes. If they see a colleague disrespected in front of everyone, that would likely cause way more damage than my boss coming in to end the confrontation. I categorically disagree that him stopping me looks worse in their eyes than had I be let to continue the verbal rampage.
Further, you're trying to compare an apple to organs situation here. Vader wasn't be undermined in that scene because A) I believe he was overall above Tarkin anyways, either in the chain of command or at the very least in the emperors eyes. Vader was KILLING somebody, that is in stark contrast to Tarkin verbally disagreeing with Vader and changing his orders in front of everybody. Those aren't even in the same stratosphere as the same. Which again is the point, Tarkin not wanting one of his commanders killed (somebody he needs to run the day to day operations of keeping the outer rim under control), is so far removed it's not even funny. A young officer in that room, who's best friends with that guy, could say no, stop that. We see that all the time, even in real life. Two guys fighting, the girlfriend yells out to the one on top of the other... stop!! let him go!! Does that mean she's above him? No, this is a common theme when we see fights or people being hurt. People don't generally like seeing somebody killed in front of them. I'll give Tarkin credit for even saying something, I agree totally with you there, that showed a lot of balls. What it didn't show, was that he was above Vader in that scene... which is the discussion at hand.
Originally posted by quanchi112
You haven't done one. Not one so you've backed down from e ery single challenge so back down is more likely a name that describes you. You've never accepted any subjects. You always have an excuse or don't show. Why don't you and I battlezone this topic to a panel of judges ?I'm free so man up, *****.
You're an idiot. Plain and simple. Are you mad you've never won a BZ in your entire life? That was burn you huh backdown112times. I've personally witnessed you backing down at least 30 times, so to see you type this is rather amusing. Further, why on God's green earth would I do a BZ with a clown like you, when I could have one with a real debater in Nib? That makes sense to you? I have respect for him at least, for you, not so much. Lies again, I agreed to a BZ with TI, and he would never agree on a time or judges. Even when I would PM him. Nothing. So again, you have your facts incorrect. Just be mad you've never won one Quanshoes.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiYou backed down from nib's challenge just as you backed down from me. You never did the battlezone as I claimed. You always come up with excuses and me doing one is more than you've ever done.
You're an idiot. Plain and simple. Are you mad you've never won a BZ in your entire life? That was burn you huh backdown112times. I've personally witnessed you backing down at least 30 times, so to see you type this is rather amusing. Further, why on God's green earth would I do a BZ with a clown like you, when I could have one with a real debater in Nib? That makes sense to you? I have respect for him at least, for you, not so much. Lies again, I agreed to a BZ with TI, and he would never agree on a time or judges. Even when I would PM him. Nothing. So again, you have your facts incorrect. Just be mad you've never won one Quanshoes.
So man up and let's have this one. If I suck prove it. I'm willing to prove I'm better than you. You're willing to offer up excuses. You're a vagina. You're a *****. You're a pussy.
Accept it.
Originally posted by quanchi112
You backed down from nib's challenge just as you backed down from me. You never did the battlezone as I claimed. You always come up with excuses and me doing one is more than you've ever done.So man up and let's have this one. If I suck prove it. I'm willing to prove I'm better than you. You're willing to offer up excuses. You're a vagina. You're a *****. You're a pussy.
Accept it.
Be mad you've never won one clown. That sucks for you. Even representing your favorite character you got tooled. Which is exactly why you're not a true Thanos fan... he would never have a failure like you representing him. Further, before your little shrimp body piped up, I already told Nib, that was a lame topic to debate. Yet after I already say that, you come out puffing your chest challenging me. You're so transparent girly girl. Be mad you've never won one LOL
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiI have. You don't have the balls to never attempt one. That battlezone was tainted since a judge admitted his decision was made prior to the argument. You made an excuse to back to him and you made an excuse to back down to me. You never tried to battlezone TI and gave excuses why you weren't available for weeks. You're a ***** whi makes excuses so I'll treat you like a *****.
Be mad you've never won one clown. That sucks for you. Even representing your favorite character you got tooled. Which is exactly why you're not a true Thanos fan... he would never have a failure like you representing him. Further, before your little shrimp body piped up, I already told Nib, that was a lame topic to debate. Yet after I already say that, you come out puffing your chest challenging me. You're so transparent girly girl. Be mad you've never won one LOL
You have no pride or spine, *****. 😂
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm surprised to see you say this though Nib, and that is exactly what should happen from your boss. You're conflating two separate things as one, when in fact, they are two separate things.For example, as you admit, that isn't something you should generally be doing in any management role. As a manger myself, that is something that I've rarely ever done. However, if I did, it wouldn't be wrong or undermining if my Director told me "Okay, let's have this discussion in private" or "I think he/she got the point" . That is EXACTLY what a Director should do in that situation to try an diffuse it, and prevent any HR legality from arising. So I strongly disagree with any notion, that this would be a bad thing or undermining of anything.
Also, as you should know, a direct verbal confrontation with a subordinate, with other subordinates around; means that you're likely already viewed in a negative light thanks to that display. Sure they may be like, many I hope that never happens to me. Sure, but they would also think I was a dick with bad management practices. That vastly further undermines my authority and respect in their eyes. If they see a colleague disrespected in front of everyone, that would likely cause way more damage than my boss coming in to end the confrontation. I categorically disagree that him stopping me looks worse in their eyes than had I be let to continue the verbal rampage.
Further, you're trying to compare an apple to organs situation here. Vader wasn't be undermined in that scene because A) I believe he was overall above Tarkin anyways, either in the chain of command or at the very least in the emperors eyes. Vader was KILLING somebody, that is in stark contrast to Tarkin verbally disagreeing with Vader and changing his orders in front of everybody. Those aren't even in the same stratosphere as the same. Which again is the point, Tarkin not wanting one of his commanders killed (somebody he needs to run the day to day operations of keeping the outer rim under control), is so far removed it's not even funny. A young officer in that room, who's best friends with that guy, could say no, stop that. We see that all the time, even in real life. Two guys fighting, the girlfriend yells out to the one on top of the other... stop!! let him go!! Does that mean she's above him? No, this is a common theme when we see fights or people being hurt. People don't generally like seeing somebody killed in front of them. I'll give Tarkin credit for even saying something, I agree totally with you there, that showed a lot of balls. What it didn't show, was that he was above Vader in that scene... which is the discussion at hand.
But that's not what happened.
It would be one thing if the boss tried to diffuse the situation, called for calm and moved the discussion to a private office. As that would recognize my grievance, my authority over my subordinates and the fact, publicly, that I am still in the right.
It is, however, quite a bit different if he stepped in, raised his voice and told me to "stop it". As this would undermine my authority, implies (albeit indirectly) that the Director is taking sides against me and implies to all my subordinates that I was in the wrong. Again, this would lose me quite a bit of respect with my staff and would piss me off royally. Granted, my position is high up enough (and my department succesful enough) that I am given quite a bit of slack at work, even by the Chairman.
Again, it is the HOW that makes all the difference here.
Instances of public demonstration of disrespect needs to be shut down if you want to be able to hold onto the respect of your staff. Immediately, strongly and publicly (to demonstrate that you do NOT take shit from your staff). Otherwise, prepare yourself to get walked all over on for the rest of your stint as manager. I run a tight ship. No one is absent. No on is late. Everyone performs.
Again, you NEED to look at the minor nuances of behavior, recognize that Vader uses fear and intimidation a lot to get the job done, he doesn't strike me as the type who is very premissive or forgiving. Not a lot of things worse than gettinf insulted in front of everyone. But getting insulted THEN getting shut down is quite the double whammy.
And he was not asked. He was TOLD. Watch the clip:
Tarkin: "Enough of this! Vader! Release him!"
Vader: "As you wish"
And Vader obeyed. I mean you can believe anything you want about their dynamics of authority (certainly enough ambiguity to support either stances, although I believe my stance is better supported by evidence available), but the dynamics SHOWN on screen on that scene is very clear and very specific.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
But that's not what happened.It would be one thing if the boss tried to diffuse the situation, called for calm and moved the discussion to a private office. As that would recognize my grievance, my authority over my subordinates and the fact, publicly, that I am still in the right.
It is, however, quite a bit different if he stepped in, raised his voice and told me to "stop it". As this would undermine my authority, implies (albeit indirectly) that the Director is taking sides against me and implies to all my subordinates that I was in the wrong. Again, this would lose me quite a bit of respect with my staff and would piss me off royally. Granted, my position is high up enough (and my department succesful enough) that I am given quite a bit of slack at work, even by the Chairman.
Again, it is the HOW that makes all the difference here.
Instances of public demonstration of disrespect needs to be shut down if you want to be able to hold onto the respect of your staff. Immediately, strongly and publicly (to demonstrate that you do NOT take shit from your staff). Otherwise, prepare yourself to get walked all over on for the rest of your stint as manager. I run a tight ship. No one is absent. No on is late. Everyone performs.
Again, you NEED to look at the minor nuances of behavior, recognize that Vader uses fear and intimidation a lot to get the job done, he doesn't strike me as the type who is very premissive or forgiving. Not a lot of things worse than gettinf insulted in front of everyone. But getting insulted THEN getting shut down is quite the double whammy.
And he was not asked. He was TOLD. Watch the clip:
Tarkin: "Enough of this! Vader! Release him!"
Vader: "As you wish"
And Vader obeyed. I mean you can believe anything you want about their dynamics of authority (certainly enough ambiguity to support either stances, although I believe my stance is better supported by evidence available), but the dynamics SHOWN on screen on that scene is very clear and very specific.
You're right though, that ISN'T what happened. Vader or Tarkin wasn't undermining the other in that scene. Vader or Tarkin weren't giving orders, and the other questioning it in front of others. In stark contrast, Vader was having a personal physical confrontation with somebody, and Tarkin didn't want him to continue. That is vastly different in both theory and practice.
Again, no, if I was lambasting a subordinate below me in front of everybody, especially in a meeting setting such as that. If that did occur, it wouldn't be undermining if my director told me to stop, even a raised voice. I'm really at a loss how you can view that as undermining. My director has a duty to look out for the firms liability, both in a HR capacity and in the work the department in producing. They very well know what lawsuits can come about if people go talking to HR, or at the very least, somebody she relies on and trusts (me) has now put myself in harms way with HR. Her saying, even in a raised voiced Stop it, now, doesn't undermine my authority. You're comparing apples to apples and trying to make a false comparison here. Now if I was giving out instructions to my subordinates and my director said that isn't how I want it done... THAT is undermining my authority and position.
It be like a fight breaking out in a meeting... do you think, even in a raised voice the CEO yell stop to someone undermines their authority? LOL. Come on Nib, I know you can't truly believe this. That is the comparison here. Vader was KILLING an officer under Tarkin i.e. a fighting breaking out. Further, I think you should re-watch the scene again, at no time does he yell or even raise his voice at Vader. In fact, he has a oh shit look on his face when saying it. In now way does that scene undermine Vader's authority (if he had it there to begin with). You seem to forget, I agree that Vader had respect for Tarkin, that much is clear. He would full well know the various duties palps had put Tarkin in charge of and that he did well with them. He moved up through the ranks throughout the many years after the clone wars. I have no doubt Vader felt like he needed to be respectful that this was his show in some ways. Much like a Vice President visiting a Mayor or Governor. It doesn't mean the VP starts taking over the day to day aspects of city matters, but make no mistake, the VP is above any mayor or governor.
That scene imo doesn't represent much of anything of than Vader respects Tarkin enough to let his commander live cause he asked. That's about it. It certainly wasn't indicative of any undermining or who had overall authority there imo
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You're right though, that ISN'T what happened. Vader or Tarkin wasn't undermining the other in that scene. Vader or Tarkin weren't giving orders, and the other questioning it in front of others. In stark contrast, Vader was having a personal physical confrontation with somebody, and Tarkin didn't want him to continue. That is vastly different in both theory and practice.Again, no, if I was lambasting a subordinate below me in front of everybody, especially in a meeting setting such as that. If that did occur, it wouldn't be undermining if my director told me to stop, even a raised voice. I'm really at a loss how you can view that as undermining. My director has a duty to look out for the firms liability, both in a HR capacity and in the work the department in producing. They very well know what lawsuits can come about if people go talking to HR, or at the very least, somebody she relies on and trusts (me) has now put myself in harms way with HR. Her saying, even in a raised voiced Stop it, now, doesn't undermine my authority. You're comparing apples to apples and trying to make a false comparison here. Now if I was giving out instructions to my subordinates and my director said that isn't how I want it done... THAT is undermining my authority and position.
It be like a fight breaking out in a meeting... do you think, even in a raised voice the CEO yell stop to someone undermines their authority? LOL. Come on Nib, I know you can't truly believe this. That is the comparison here. Vader was KILLING an officer under Tarkin i.e. a fighting breaking out. Further, I think you should re-watch the scene again, at no time does he yell or even raise his voice at Vader. In fact, he has a oh shit look on his face when saying it. In now way does that scene undermine Vader's authority (if he had it there to begin with). You seem to forget, I agree that Vader had respect for Tarkin, that much is clear. He would full well know the various duties palps had put Tarkin in charge of and that he did well with them. He moved up through the ranks throughout the many years after the clone wars. I have no doubt Vader felt like he needed to be respectful that this was his show in some ways. Much like a Vice President visiting a Mayor or Governor. It doesn't mean the VP starts taking over the day to day aspects of city matters, but make no mistake, the VP is above any mayor or governor.
That scene imo doesn't represent much of anything of than Vader respects Tarkin enough to let his commander live cause he asked. That's about it. It certainly wasn't indicative of any undermining or who had overall authority there imo
Again, Tarkin didn't ask him. He TOLD him. And Vader acquiesced almost immediately. That is not in question here, and that is very very telling of their dynamic.
I do not work in an American company. HR lawsuits don't happen where I am as we are not highly litigious where I work (well, to be fair, if we want to get really technical, I am more of a consultant now than I am an exec, tho I still retain my old position, I no longer put in the same hours/days due to my US immigration status... long story) and civil lawsuits based on employee grievance could take decades to resolve. Not unless some clear violation of law occured. Me chewing up a subordinate who showed disrespect is quite acceptable where I am. Tho I am American educated, one needs to understand that cultural differences greatly determine management styles.
Of course in a professional, modern day meeting scenario, when an actual physical confrontstion occurs, ppl would step in and break up the fight. At that point, however, I doubt anything the Director says and does would actually be heard by the conflicting parties.
But again. All that is irrelevant as this is not what is happening here.
We need to take into context the type of organization and the type of organizational culture the empire has and the type of "leader" Vader demonstrated himself to be. He is a tyrant. He does not have any qualms about killing a subordinate in front of his other subordinates. And, if the reaction of his officers is anything to go by, this is already accepted behavior and I doubt that they have any HR dept that would send Vader a memo of reprimand for his behavior. This is also within a military orgainization within a fascist/dictatorship government. There is no HR to cry to and no one that can file a civil lawsuit. So I don't see how your HR/civil lawsuit scenario is even remotely applicable here. At all.
You are ingoring too many facts here. Thus I will have to vehemently disagree with you.
Also, I do not kmow why we are even still arguing this. I already asked thst we don derail the thread any longer and here we are back to derailing the thread again.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Again, Tarkin didn't ask him. He TOLD him. And Vader acquiesced almost immediately. That is not in question here, and that is very very telling of their dynamic.I do not work in an American company. HR lawsuits don't happen where I am as we are not highly litigious where I work (well, to be fair, if we want to get really technical, I am more of a consultant now than I am an exec, tho I still retain my old position, I no longer put in the same hours/days due to my US immigration status... long story) and civil lawsuits based on employee grievance could take decades to resolve. Not unless some clear violation of law occured. Me chewing up a subordinate who showed disrespect is quite acceptable where I am. Tho I am American educated, one needs to understand that cultural differences greatly determine management styles.
Of course in a professional, modern day meeting scenario, when an actual physical confrontstion occurs, ppl would step in and break up the fight. At that point, however, I doubt anything the Director says and does would actually be heard by the conflicting parties.
But again. All that is irrelevant as this is not what is happening here.
We need to take into context the type of organization and the type of organizational culture the empire has and the type of "leader" Vader demonstrated himself to be. He is a tyrant. He does not have any qualms about killing a subordinate in front of his other subordinates. And, if the reaction of his officers is anything to go by, this is already accepted behavior and I doubt that they have any HR dept that would send Vader a memo of reprimand for his behavior. This is also within a military orgainization within a fascist/dictatorship government. There is no HR to cry to and no one that can file a civil lawsuit. So I don't see how your HR/civil lawsuit scenario is even remotely applicable here. At all.
You are ingoring too many facts here. Thus I will have to vehemently disagree with you.
Also, I do not kmow why we are even still arguing this. I already asked thst we don derail the thread any longer and here we are back to derailing the thread again.
Well I don't really call it derailing per se, we put to rest the other argument about the actual order, and we are discussing (politely I might add) another topic. I don't look at that as a bad thing or derailing anything. We don't need to discuss it further, but all I say is, you brought up "our" (by our I mean both U.S. and wherever you work) work environment to this discussion. You talked about your consulting work and experience in organizational structure and tried to equate it with that scene. Now you're saying those structures are framed so differently you can't compare them. So, I hope you can understand why we are where we are. In the more "formal" structures me and you are used to (which is different than the empire) what occurred in that scene would not be viewed as undermining my authority. That was my point, and a factual one imo. If a physical situation happened in a high level meeting, anybody above me telling me to stop in no way would undermine my authority. Further, he didn't just yell at him to stop, he had very KEY words before that. They were just in the middle of planning strategy and a fight breaks out in the meeting. He says "vader enough of this" before he NOT yelling says release him. That scene paints an even clearer picture. It wasn't a commander yelling at an underling there imo, it was, hey stop this nonsense in this meeting.. there is no time for physical altercations in meetings, we have work to attend to.
Anyways, we can stop the discussion as it seems you don't want to go further, which is fine. But I strongly disagree with your view of that scene representing any undermining what so ever. However, we can end it now and it's all good man.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Like I said, the method and nature of how Tarkin shut Vader down on screen speaks volumes.I mean that is among one of the indicators of Vader's apparent respect for Tarkin's authority.
I dunno if it is visible to you guys. But to an Asian who has been in management quite a long time. We can spot nuances of behavior relative to one's respect over another's authority.
They are very clear.
In this scene for example:
Vader kept several steps in pace behind Tarkin and stood closely beside him as he took his seat (in Japan, tradtionally, wives do this as a sign of subservience to their husbands).
I mean the very fact that one guy had the gall to diss Vader in front of everyone should already be very telling. Had Vader been the highest ranked officer in the room, no way that guy would have done that.
And Tarkin didn't ASK (unlike your interpretation above) Vader to release the guy. He TOLD him to. Big difference. HUGE difference.
Vader: "as you wish" <---- that is very telling isn't it?
I would say IMO, the relationship was of grudging respect and recognizing that it is the emperor's will that he at least listens to him (for now). Knowing full well, of course, that he can (at anytime) fold the man in half and take over if he wants (but doing so would not be in his or his agenda's best interests).
Like I said in the Canon novel Palpatine tells Vader "you two decide between each other whose in charge for this mission"
Clearly it was decided and agreed by both of them that Tarkin is in charge on the Death Star. And those on the DS were clearly all Tarkin's men.
But both know in the bigger scheme of things Vader is next in line to the thrown, not Tarkin. Although if others don't see that it could have been something akin to how Maul took over Madalore in TCW, where he wasn't the face of Madalaore, but behind the scenes he was the one in charge.
Tarkin may have been the highest ranking "public" figure in the Empire after Palpatine.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Like I said in the Canon novel Palpatine tells Vader "you two decide between each other whose in charge for this mission"Clearly it was decided and agreed by both of them that Tarkin is in charge on the Death Star. And those on the DS were clearly all Tarkin's men.
But both know in the bigger scheme of things Vader is next in line to the thrown, not Tarkin. Although if others don't see that it could have been something akin to how Maul took over Madalore in TCW, where he wasn't the face of Madalaore, but behind the scenes he was the one in charge.
Tarkin may have been the highest ranking "public" figure in the Empire after Palpatine.
From the quotes Utriga posted, I don't see it that way. More like: "Vader, Tarkin is in charge. But if he fails or does something to defy me, kill him and take over."
I feel that your heirarchy logic has a but of a non sequitors here.
Being next in line does not necessarily mean you have the next highest authority. Take family corporations, for example. Tho, respect for the heir IS shown (since, well, he might well be your boss eventuallly), authority is still based on what position is held by the child within the company. Oftentimes, we jokingly call that position "COO"' (or, Child of Owner(s), original acronym derived from Chief Operations Officer).
Hell, I could be training someone to replace me one day (he may carry out some initiatives under my direct instructions) but doesn't directly mean he is second (to me) in command.
Bottom line, for your authority dynamics to make sense, you will need to provide some sort of proof that Vader held any sway over Tarkin's actions. Any movie scene where that is implied. Being a SW fan, that should be simple. Let's just not simply assume by virtue of him being Vader and him being Sid's apprentice. I am open to the possibility but will need some proof first, if you don't mind.
Again, I will reiterate that ppl simply view that one scene and judge for themselves who really was being portrayed as in charge there.
I will agree, however, that Vader could have taken charge at any time thru force. As with any fictional evil fascist "bad guy" organization (as with some organizations IRL) , the stronger bad guy can kill the boss to just take over.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Well I don't really call it derailing per se, we put to rest the other argument about the actual order, and we are discussing (politely I might add) another topic. I don't look at that as a bad thing or derailing anything. We don't need to discuss it further, but all I say is, you brought up "our" (by our I mean both U.S. and wherever you work) work environment to this discussion. You talked about your consulting work and experience in organizational structure and tried to equate it with that scene. Now you're saying those structures are framed so differently you can't compare them. So, I hope you can understand why we are where we are. In the more "formal" structures me and you are used to (which is different than the empire) what occurred in that scene would not be viewed as undermining my authority. That was my point, and a factual one imo. If a physical situation happened in a high level meeting, anybody above me telling me to stop in no way would undermine my authority. Further, he didn't just yell at him to stop, he had very KEY words before that. They were just in the middle of planning strategy and a fight breaks out in the meeting. He says "vader enough of this" before he NOT yelling says release him. That scene paints an even clearer picture. It wasn't a commander yelling at an underling there imo, it was, hey stop this nonsense in this meeting.. there is no time for physical altercations in meetings, we have work to attend to.Anyways, we can stop the discussion as it seems you don't want to go further, which is fine. But I strongly disagree with your view of that scene representing any undermining what so ever. However, we can end it now and it's all good man.
As with my corporate culture (see: my location) and your corporate culture, as with the empire's org culture, things are extremely different and minor societal/legal/cultural nuances exist that greatly influence approaches to different scenarios.
The mistake, I feel, in your logic comes from directly transplanting the scene into your organizational dynamics where the same factors that weigh in on the interaction between boss/employee are not the same.
My logic was based on a general, purely logical sense wherein in instances where a boss (of any culture) sees it necessary to publicly reprimand (levels vary due to cultural/societal/legal differences) a subordinate (rare but in public displays of disrespect, necessary at varying degrees), another subordinate publicly interupting/disrupting said reprimand (to varying degrees) would be seen as an extreme demonstration of disrespect and would undermine the leader's authority. Regardless of culture. This path of logic eliminates the existence of cultural/societal/legal nuances and simply explores the interaction within the pure vacuum of leader-subordinate dynamics.
That is as simple as I can explain the underlying cause of where our differences of opinion may lie. But again, I feel like we have hijacked this thread at this point.
Edit. Also, typing in forums via an ipad sucks.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
From the quotes Utriga posted, I don't see it that way. More like: "Vader, Tarkin is in charge. But if he fails or does something to defy me, kill him and take over."I feel that your heirarchy logic has a but of a non sequitors here.
Being next in line does not necessarily mean you have the next highest authority. Take family corporations, for example. Tho, respect for the heir IS shown (since, well, he might well be your boss eventuallly), authority is still based on what position is held by the child within the company. Oftentimes, we jokingly call that position "COO"' (or, Child of Owner(s), original acronym derived from Chief Operations Officer).
Hell, I could be training someone to replace me one day (he may carry out some initiatives under my direct instructions) but doesn't directly mean he is second (to me) in command.
Bottom line, for your authority dynamics to make sense, you will need to provide some sort of proof that Vader held any sway over Tarkin's actions. Any movie scene where that is implied. Being a SW fan, that should be simple. Let's just not simply assume by virtue of him being Vader and him being Sid's apprentice. I am open to the possibility but will need some proof first, if you don't mind.
Again, I will reiterate that ppl simply view that one scene and judge for themselves who really was being portrayed as in charge there.
I will agree, however, that Vader could have taken charge at any time thru force. As with any fictional evil fascist "bad guy" organization (as with some organizations IRL) , the stronger bad guy can kill the boss to just take over.
Again the "Canon" novel had Palpatine saying to Vader that you two (Vader and Tarkin) decide among yourselves whose in charge (for a particular mission). Given Tarkin oversaw the construction of the Death Star the most, that's his home base, so he would be in charge there.
Yes I agree being next in line to the thrown isn't necessarily 2nd in charge at present. But it's hardly someone the 2nd in charge would want to irritate either (powers or not). And like I said there's no evidence Tarkin even was 2nd in charge outside of the Death Star. Their ranking seemed to have been on a mission/place basis.
Kind of like in DS9 where on the station Kira was the 1st officer but on the Defiant Worf seemed to be higher ranking most of the time.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
1) Again the "Canon" novel had Palpatine saying to Vader that you two (Vader and Tarkin) decide among yourselves whose in charge (for a particular mission). Given Tarkin oversaw the construction of the Death Star the most, that's his home base, so he would be in charge there.2) Yes I agree being next in line to the thrown isn't necessarily 2nd in charge at present. But it's hardly someone the 2nd in charge would want to irritate either (powers or not). And like I said there's no evidence Tarkin even was 2nd in charge outside of the Death Star. Their ranking seemed to have been on a mission/place basis.
Kind of like in DS9 where on the station Kira was the 1st officer but on the Defiant Worf seemed to be higher ranking most of the time.
1) Didn't see anything that implies this in Utriga's quotes. Can you post the specific scene where this was said?
Anyway, regardless, I can certainly see and agree about the possibility that their authority over each other is determined on a per project basis. Happens often enough IRL, after all. As long as we can agree to Tarkin being the official highest ranking officer in the Death Star (as that is my primary point anyway).
Disclaimer: Before someone interjects or uses this discussion we're having to call me out on past/future debates: Yes, I KNOW that if we DO still follow the forum rules, even canon novels are disregarded for forum MvS discussions. And yes, I know I was the one who asked for the ruling and got it. And no, I am not being a hypocrite by being more accepting of novel quotes for this specific discussion as this is more of a side discussion rather than the primary OP. And yes, I apologize for derailing.
2) Agree. No one wants a potential future boss to be mad at them if it can be avoided at all. The only on screen movie interaction they had was in the Death Star anyway, so that's all we'll be able to discuss atm.
I can certainly see Vader outranking (or at the very least be equal to) Tarkin somewhere else as a possibilty. Might even see it in Rogue One, who knows?