Hulk 634 Vs Surfer & Beta Ray Bill

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
I realize they can. But characters from the past universe cannot travel to the future and end up in the same universe. This is mind boggling that you even think this can happen.

Why can't characters travel up and down their own time line?

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Because that would mean that Surfer came from the 616 universe in the first place, went forward however long in Marvel time into the future, and winded up in the same universe... where there would have been another 616 Surfer surfing around pooping in stars. Which would mean there are two 616 universes in Marvel. Two 616 Surfer's at different levels, and different points in time... which is exactly why different universe numbers are there, so you don't get two of the same universes.
It makes no sense. In fact, I can't even properly explain how much sense it doesn't make because I'm dumbfounded that someone actually thinks this can happen. Just to try and give more explanation... the past, the future, and the present are all different universes. No matter what happens.

So your inherent problem with this is that it would mean two Surfer's existed in the same point in time?

Do you really think Loeb gives a shit about that type of crap? He made it clear that Surfer was plucked out of time and then everything was reset. No more thought was given to it.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Loeb wrote it. Of course second thought wasn't given, or even thought in the first place.

Then what's the problem?

Loeb intended that Surfer to be every bit as powerful as the 616 equivalent of that time and that's what matters to me. Whether it makes sense or not apparently worries only you. Even with writers who would consider that stuff, in the end, it's not given much thought. You know why? Because it's comics.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Just as powerful as Surfer who just got heralded? So... pointless in this thread either way then (which was my main point... that it was pointless to bring up)
Either way, it's not even the same Surfer, so the assumption that he was just as powerful has more say than assuming he wasn't as powerful? I didn't want to get into the "Exact same power level" so that's why I just said different universe.

That Surfer was operating at classic power levels -which is less than his current levels- was never in contention. Trying to wave away the feat was what I had a problem with. Using Rulk as a comparison, the gap between Green Scar before he even reaches World Breaker levels and classic Silver Surfer is vast. Such a thing -if you accept it- does deserve being mentioned.

If you understand that, then I have nothing more to say on the matter.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Hate Surfer, slightly dislike Hulk because of Thor. I know Rage.

I might despise the Surfer but it's more than balanced out by your love of the little eunuch.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
I realize they can. But characters from the past universe cannot travel to the future and end up in the same universe. This is mind boggling that you even think this can happen.

Because that would mean that Surfer came from the 616 universe in the first place, went forward however long in Marvel time into the future, and winded up in the same universe... where there would have been another 616 Surfer surfing around pooping in stars. Which would mean there are two 616 universes in Marvel. Two 616 Surfer's at different levels, and different points in time... which is exactly why different universe numbers are there, so you don't get two of the same universes.
It makes no sense. In fact, I can't even properly explain how much sense it doesn't make because I'm dumbfounded that someone actually thinks this can happen. Just to try and give more explanation... the past, the future, and the present are all different universes. No matter what happens.

Loeb wrote it. Of course second thought wasn't given, or even thought in the first place.

Just as powerful as Surfer who just got heralded? So... pointless in this thread either way then (which was my main point... that it was pointless to bring up)
Either way, it's not even the same Surfer, so the assumption that he was just as powerful has more say than assuming he wasn't as powerful? I didn't want to get into the "Exact same power level" so that's why I just said different universe. I mean, almost every other universe alternate has a varried power level but Surfer's stays the same apparently... but that's a tale for another time.

Hate Surfer, slightly dislike Hulk because of Thor. I know Rage.

Not to be facetious, but if he traveled say, five minutes into the future, you're saying he'd be in a different/alternate universe with an alternate Surfer?

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
I'm satisfied

That's cold 😂

This time travel discussion reminds me of Mr Master.

Either way ot's a weakened Surfer; it really doesn't matter whether it's another timeline or not, imo.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Why can't characters travel up and down their own time line?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
So your inherent problem with this is that it would mean two Surfer's existed in the same point in time?

Do you really think Loeb gives a shit about that type of crap? He made it clear that Surfer was plucked out of time and then everything was reset. No more thought was given to it.

No, I don't think he does. But Loeb never said that this Surfer was from the 616 universe, so Loeb never screwed up. It's you and Carver who are saying it's 616 Surfer, not Loeb.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Then what's the problem?

Loeb intended that Surfer to be every bit as powerful as the 616 equivalent of that time and that's what matters to me. Whether it makes sense or not apparently worries only you. Even with writers who would consider that stuff, in the end, it's not given much thought. You know why? Because it's comics.

I know Loeb doesn't care about anything, but that doesn't mean his characters are just as powerful. Loeb can't even write Hulk being as powerful as Hulk. If we're going to bring up writers as proof of anything, then how do you compare Loeb's Rulk to current Rulk even with the draining ability?
Exactly, it's comics. It's not the same character. I agree entirely.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
That Surfer was operating at classic power levels -which is less than his current levels- was never in contention. Trying to wave away the feat was what I had a problem with. Using Rulk as a comparison, the gap between Green Scar before he even reaches World Breaker levels and classic Silver Surfer is vast. Such a thing -if you accept it- does deserve being mentioned.

If you understand that, then I have nothing more to say on the matter.

I'm not sure how easy you can get drained indicates power level though... especially when you're saying it's a Surfer who even with more experience had problems with almost everything. After like v2 did Surfer have any luck with anything that tried to drain him.

At the end of the day, it's alternate Surfer though, and we know how well alternates follow 616 power levels...
*Sentry killing Thor*

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I might despise the Surfer but it's more than balanced out by your love of the little eunuch.

Originally posted by Nihilist
Spite team wins.

👆

Originally posted by Mindset
Only person that can drain Hulk dry is Carver.

crylaugh

Anyway, this Team would spitestomp any Herald, Superman, Thor etc.

Even Batman would have a hard time... *cough*

Originally posted by dmills
Not to be facetious, but if he traveled say, five minutes into the future, you're saying he'd be in a different/alternate universe with an alternate Surfer?

This:

Originally posted by dmills
Not to be facetious, but if he traveled say, five minutes into the future, you're saying he'd be in a different/alternate universe with an alternate Surfer?

Enters it fully

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Meh, I'm just bordering on Mr Master discussion.

This:

Enters it fully

Is dude heavily into arguing about multiversal cosmology or something?

where have you been? master lives for those discussions, just go into any galactus vs phoenix thread

Understatement of the year right there. Dude used to argue that shit like it was his job.

Example:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=469810&pagenumber=2

Originally posted by psycho gundam
where have you been? master lives for those discussions, just go into any galactus vs phoenix thread

Generally I avoid those kinds of threads. Galactus vs the Celestials vs Chthon in the astral plane type of shyte is too mind boggling to even bother with. I'd just as soon peel hundreds of potatoes.

Originally posted by dmills
K? So they were both weakened. Surfer was gimped without full access to his pc, and fighting the Hulk in conditions that should've been favorable for Banner. Yet Norrin was still giving Hulk and his team the bizness'.

Surfer gave Hulks team the bizness (as he should), not necessarily the Hulk himself though. They enter the arena, Hulk says "Hey buddy", Surfer kicks things off with a big ole sucker attack (with a weapon crakling with what was presumbaly PC energy), they lock up and Hulk yells at him, Surfer headbutts him. Surfer trashes the team.

Surfer looked fast and dangerous here but his two big attacks only drew blood whereas three Hulks blows left him sleeping in a crater (both led off with sucker/surprise blows). Given the crowds reaction (people turning away etc) Surfer was probably out after the second punch.

BRB one-shots both.

Originally posted by Simbon
Surfer's blasts are powerful enough to KO the Champion, and in his fight with Morg they devastated an entire solar system with their energy output -- to assume that they would have "no effect" on Hulk is foolishness.

We've seen Hulk wade through Surfers blasts before and this is hardly your everyday hulk.

Likewise, Hulk's resistance to transmutation was against someone whose abilities are so quantitatively and qualitatively inferior to Surfer's that the feat means almost nothing here, especially as in that comic hulk took pages to fully recover -- even though he regained mobility, he was still slow and stony.

Honestly this just reads like an awkward attempt to write this feat off. As i said in that other thread - if you are transmuted to stone...you are now made out of stone. The fact that someone is supposedly "really good at" compared to someone else shouldnt have any bearing on the implications of someone recovering from such a state. I'm sure Surfer is a real craftsman but that doesnt change the fact that Hulk was changed to stone and got better.

In that example, which involved a Hulk again several rungs further down the evolutionary ladder from what we are discussing here sure it took Hulk a few pages to recover but its not even like he was attacked while enraged in mid fight - he was transformed while in Banner form. The fact that even being made out of stone didnt stop the Hulks transformation says more in this case than it taking him a couple of pages to complete his return to normal IMO.

Surfer has evolved an entire planet with his matter manip, and has even affected Lunatik in a lasting way, who also has a massive healing factor.Some folks have suggested that Armageddon tried and failed to gamma drain hulk and that therefor it would be the same with Surfer, but this is simply not true -- Armageddon manipulated Hulk's energy to use it as a weapon against the people hulk loved, and he succeeded. Hulk bore through the attack and killed him, but the fight shows precisely the opposite of what some have claimed: it shows that hulk's gamma energy can be manipulated by an outside force.

And we have seen (again much, much less powerful) Gravage Hulks no sell energy drains from Rulk (who drained Hulk back to human form for an entire year and drained Surfer himself to death) and from Armageddons tech that the Surfer believed would kill Hulk in 464. I think its pretty safe to say that this isnt a tactic Surfer would want to stake his life on.

Surfer solos ten ways 'til sunday.

I thnk thats a pretty optimistic conclusion personally but to each their own.

Originally posted by Fifthchild
We've seen Hulk wade through Surfers blasts before and this is hardly your everyday hulk.

Honestly this just reads like an awkward attempt to write this feat off. As i said in that other thread - if you are transmuted to stone...you are now made out of stone. The fact that someone is supposedly "really good at" compared to someone else shouldnt have any bearing on the implications of someone recovering from such a state. I'm sure Surfer is a real craftsman but that doesnt change the fact that Hulk was changed to stone and got better.

In that example, which involved a Hulk again several rungs further down the evolutionary ladder from what we are discussing here sure it took Hulk a few pages to recover but its not even like he was attacked while enraged in mid fight - he was transformed while in Banner form. The fact that even being made out of stone didnt stop the Hulks transformation says more in this case than it taking him a couple of pages to complete his return to normal IMO.

Hulk has never been hit with a full-power blast from Surfer. Surfer's best energy output feats absolutely dwarf what Sentry displayed in his fight with WWH, which wore Hulk out.

The difference is transmutation is extremely significant; Gargoyle's powers are chemical, and wear off naturally. Surfer's powers work on a totally different level, and he has already shown that they are capable of working on someone with a crazy healing factor. Surfer has also stated on panel that his matter manipulation could affect the hulk, which could be dismissed if he had not already shown it working on Lunatik.

@simbon,

You have scans of the lunatic transmutation? If its as you described it, that's some major ammo.

Originally posted by dmills
@simbon,

You have scans of the lunatic transmutation? If its as you described it, that's some major ammo.

Binds Lunatik to the planet's ecosystem:

it was a pretty cool feat. he couldn't really beat lunatic in any other way--or at least that was how it came across--so he basically bound him genetically to the planet's ecosystem. thing is, it didn't last and he was able to escape and it was never really explained how. lunatik was a funny character. he was constantly mutating. so maybe he evolved beyond ss's powers? or maybe ss just didn't have the power to keep him there? key thing is, it didn't work like ss thought it would. lunatik was an absolute beast while he was alive.....